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Author Topic: Defect of Intention and the Papal Office  (Read 5106 times)

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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: Defect of Intention and the Papal Office
« Reply #30 on: October 05, 2023, 01:16:29 PM »
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    All these bishops are walking around as if nothing happened,
    We were discussing Siri, not the general bishops.  You know nothing about Siri, he lives half-way across the world, but if he didn't make the front page of an American newspaper by setting himself on fire, in St Peter's square, in opposition to V2, then (according to you) he's a heretic.  :facepalm:  Absolute nonsense and uncharitable.

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    he certainly lost his office by manifesting adherence to the new religion
    :facepalm:  And you know this how?
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    Offline Marulus Fidelis

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    Re: Defect of Intention and the Papal Office
    « Reply #31 on: October 05, 2023, 01:18:50 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on October 05, 2023, 01:16:29 PM
    We were discussing Siri, not the general bishops.  You know nothing about Siri, he lives half-way across the world, but if he didn't make the front page of an American newspaper by setting himself on fire, in St Peter's square, in opposition to V2, then (according to you) he's a heretic.  :facepalm:  Absolute nonsense and uncharitable.
    Did you not to see the picture of him celebrating the Novus Ordo and embracing JP2 or...?
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Defect of Intention and the Papal Office
    « Reply #32 on: October 05, 2023, 01:21:02 PM »
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    • Didn't Cardinal Ratzinger/Benedict say some negative things about Vatican II?  How is Cardinal Siri different from Cardinal Ratzinger/Benedict? 
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Defect of Intention and the Papal Office
    « Reply #33 on: October 05, 2023, 01:28:17 PM »
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    Did you not to see the picture of him celebrating the Novus Ordo and embracing JP2 or...?
    There's pictures of St Padre Pio "looking like" he's celebrating the novus ordo too, except we know he was just facing the people.  Maybe the photo shows the novus ordo, maybe it doesn't.  It's not zero-doubt evidence.  Secondly, what if he said the new mass at first, using the orthodox canon and later rejected it?  You have no idea.  You are in no position to judge anything.

    JP2 was a popular person, a charismatic leader.  Even +ABL was optimistic that JP2 would be conservative.  Again, a photo without context proves nothing.

    The evidence we DO have about Siri...
    1.  He was basically a prisoner in his house.
    2.  He was constantly watched and monitored.
    3.  He gave multiple interviews about horrible things going on and worried if God would forgive him.

    Doesn't sound like a person 100% on board with the conciliar church.
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    Offline Marulus Fidelis

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    Re: Defect of Intention and the Papal Office
    « Reply #34 on: October 05, 2023, 01:36:08 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on October 05, 2023, 01:28:17 PM
    The evidence we DO have about Siri...
    1.  He was basically a prisoner in his house.
    2.  He was constantly watched and monitored.
    3.  He gave multiple interviews about horrible things going on and worried if God would forgive him.

    Doesn't sound like a person 100% on board with the conciliar church.
    I saw none of that evidence so if you could provide it I'd be happy to look at it.

    The point is this, if I name a random NO "bishop" alive today, is he presumed to be a heretic or a Catholic?

    Even if you say you presume he's a Catholic you don't do so in practice, when reading about these people you assume with the rest of us that they are on board with the new religion.
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Defect of Intention and the Papal Office
    « Reply #35 on: October 05, 2023, 01:41:06 PM »
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    • Just found this:

    Card. Siri: A Devoted Supporter of John Paul II (traditioninaction.org)

    Just double checked the linked website and translated some of the Italian.  The TIA translation looks legit and accurate.  He considers JPII the bringer of truth and he also clearly believes that JPII was the Vicar of Christ (not himself). 
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    Offline Yeti

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    Re: Defect of Intention and the Papal Office
    « Reply #36 on: October 05, 2023, 01:43:31 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on October 05, 2023, 12:49:37 PM
    Read again.  He objected to it at first and then gave in AFTER the guy had been elected, not resigned.  That's what the term "acquiesce" means.  Same thing happened in the case of St. Silverius, and there's no acquiescence there.

    Um, no, I looked it up in a dictionary. The American Heritage Dictionary gives us the following meanings for that word: "To consent or comply passively or without protest: synonym: assent. To rest satisfied, or apparently satisfied, or to rest without opposition and discontent (usually implying previous opposition or discontent); to accept or consent by silence or by omitting to object; -- followed by in, formerly also by with and to. To concur upon conviction; ; to assent to; usually, to concur, not heartily but so far as to forbear opposition."

    With regard to St. Silverius (assuming he is a true saint, which I can't seem to figure out, although he has never been formally canonized), I don't really know. The Catholic Encyclopedia doesn't describe him as being replaced in his lifetime.
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    Offline Marulus Fidelis

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    Re: Defect of Intention and the Papal Office
    « Reply #37 on: October 05, 2023, 01:52:42 PM »
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    • Quote from: 2Vermont on October 05, 2023, 01:41:06 PM
    Just found this:

    Card. Siri: A Devoted Supporter of John Paul II (traditioninaction.org)
    An example of a teaching Siri had five years to ponder before writing that:

    Redemptoris Missio (# 10), dec. 7, 1990: “The universality of salvation means that it is granted not only to those who explicitly believe in Christ and have entered the Church.”

    Hundreds of similar examples could be cited. Or what, I'm supposed to believe Siri lived under a rock his whole life, never read a single encyclical of Woytila?
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    Offline Yeti

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    Re: Defect of Intention and the Papal Office
    « Reply #38 on: October 05, 2023, 01:54:39 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on October 05, 2023, 01:28:17 PM
    Doesn't sound like a person 100% on board with the conciliar church.
    .

    Pax, acceptance of heresy makes someone a heretic. Vatican 2 was heretical.

    Now, we can't prove a negative. If you have proof that Cardinal Siri publicly denounced Vatican 2 and the new mass and modernism and the new sacraments and the other changes that the rest of us here all denounce, then why don't you just produce it for us? I would love to see it. :popcorn:
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    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: Defect of Intention and the Papal Office
    « Reply #39 on: October 05, 2023, 01:56:27 PM »
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    • Quote from: Simeon on October 05, 2023, 11:28:48 AM
    As Bp. Sanborn so correctly insists, actions in the external forum are determinative; while the condition of the internal forum is absolutely irrelevant.

    Actions in the external forum are indicative of the condition of the internal forum.  It is against the internal forum where moral culpability is imputed.  Without the imputation of moral culpability, there can be no charge of a canonical delict or fault being committed.  Therefore, the internal forum is not absolutely irrelevant.  It is actually the most relevant. 
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    Offline Marulus Fidelis

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    Re: Defect of Intention and the Papal Office
    « Reply #40 on: October 05, 2023, 01:58:25 PM »
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    • Quote from: Yeti on October 05, 2023, 01:54:39 PM
    .

    Pax, acceptance of heresy makes someone a heretic. Vatican 2 was heretical.

    Now, we can't prove a negative. If you have proof that Cardinal Siri publicly denounced Vatican 2 and the new mass and modernism and the new sacraments and the other changes that the rest of us here all denounce, then why don't you just produce it for us? I would love to see it. :popcorn:
    Exactly! One can even commit heresy by omission, let alone by signing hundreds of pages of man-centered antichrist doctrine followed by lavishing praise on the embodiment of the new religion and celebrating the sacrilegious work of demonic hands.
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    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: Defect of Intention and the Papal Office
    « Reply #41 on: October 05, 2023, 02:00:06 PM »
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    • Quote from: Marulus Fidelis on October 05, 2023, 12:58:05 PM
    Every single bishop who hasn't denounced the council is presumed to be a heretic.

    https://www.traditioninaction.org/RevolutionPhotos/A440-Siri-1.htm

    What is your evidence that supports your proposition that "every single bishop who hasn't denounced the council is presumed to be a heretic"?
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    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: Defect of Intention and the Papal Office
    « Reply #42 on: October 05, 2023, 02:03:13 PM »
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    • Quote from: Marulus Fidelis on October 05, 2023, 01:58:25 PM
    One can even commit heresy by omission.....

    Really?  What is your evidence for this proposition?
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    Offline Marulus Fidelis

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    Re: Defect of Intention and the Papal Office
    « Reply #43 on: October 05, 2023, 02:11:22 PM »
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    • Quote from: Catholic Knight on October 05, 2023, 02:03:13 PM
    Really?  What is your evidence for this proposition?

    Page 35 onward https://archive.org/details/MackenzieTheDelictOfHeresy1932/page/n23/mode/2up


    Quote from: Catholic Knight on October 05, 2023, 02:00:06 PM
    What is your evidence that supports your proposition that "every single bishop who hasn't denounced the council is presumed to be a heretic"?
    Read the above book from page 35.

    A salient point "If the delinquent making this claim be a cleric, his plea for mitigation must be dismissed,     either as untrue, or else as indicating ignorance which is affected, or at least crass and supine… His ecclesiastical training in the seminary, with its moral and dogmatic theology, its ecclesiastical history, not to mention its canon law, all insure that the Church’s attitude towards heresy was imparted to him."
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    Offline Marulus Fidelis

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    Re: Defect of Intention and the Papal Office
    « Reply #44 on: October 05, 2023, 02:16:42 PM »
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    • It's quite simple really. All Novus Ordo bishops alive today have passed through a modernist seminary that teaches all the errors of Vatican II and more, they do not publicly oppose the new religion, if they did we'd hear of them and their removal.

    If you want to claim that any Novus Ordo hierarch is a member of the Church then please do demonstrate that he professes the true faith which is a requirement for membership (Mystici Corporis #22).
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