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Author Topic: Debunking Vigano’s Vote Scare  (Read 6012 times)

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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: Debunking Vigano’s Vote Scare
« Reply #15 on: October 31, 2024, 05:34:16 PM »
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    • :facepalm:  Abortion is governed by the states.   It is no longer governed by the President or federal law.  
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Debunking Vigano’s Vote Scare
    « Reply #16 on: October 31, 2024, 07:47:11 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on October 31, 2024, 04:37:13 PM
    Agree.  I'd say probably 99% of Trad clerics would say it's not a sin to vote for him.

    OK, so?  99.99% of Bishops endorsed Vatican II and the NOM and held them to be perfectly Catholic, as did 99.999% of Catholic theologians at the time.

    We're living in a time of apostasy, and the "Trad clergy", who are in no way part of the Ecclesia Docens or have any authority or jurisdiction ... have no more of a claim to inerrancy than actual bishops and pastors, and the men whom many Trads say were legitimate Catholic Popes.  During the Arian crisis, nearly 99% of the Catholic bishops succuмbed to that heresy.

    I'm interested in truth, and I have not seen ANY of these "Trad clergy" explain how or why the most basic principles of Catholic moral theology (such as the rejection of "lesser evil") somehow does not apply to voting or go into "suspension" somehow.  Every statement I've seen from them articulates nothing short of a non-Catholic utilitarianism.

    I reject them as being in error ... until they can demonstrate otherwise.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Debunking Vigano’s Vote Scare
    « Reply #17 on: October 31, 2024, 07:49:24 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on October 31, 2024, 04:44:13 PM
    Abortion is no longer a federal issue.  Anything that happens, is the state's responsibility.

    Right ... the old Pontius Pilate exculpation technique ... didn't really work for him either.
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    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: Debunking Vigano’s Vote Scare
    « Reply #18 on: October 31, 2024, 08:28:16 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on October 31, 2024, 07:49:24 PM
    Right ... the old Pontius Pilate exculpation technique ... didn't really work for him either.


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    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Debunking Vigano’s Vote Scare
    « Reply #19 on: October 31, 2024, 08:32:44 PM »
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    • Quote from: Incredulous on October 31, 2024, 03:41:42 PM
    Good question 2Vermont.

     I haven’t tried to quantify the protests against Archbishop Vigano’s claim of a “Catholic obligation” to vote for Trump.

    My take is that Vigano is a political embarrassment to the SSPX since he openly criticizes pope Francis.

    The SSPX Resistance fawns over the Archbishop and other indult or R&R groups haven’t appeared to speak up.

    An SSPV priest, Father Wm. Jenkins has come out and said it was not a sin to vote for Trump.
     It seems that the sede groups discount Archbishop Vigano possibly because he believes the modernist popes prior to Bergy are valid.

    If you find any articles of members of trad Catholic religious groups protesting, the “Catholic obligation” to vote for Trump, please let me know?
    I think your assessment above is probably pretty accurate.  I will keep an eye out for criticisms of Vigano's position and report back if I hear of any.
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    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: Debunking Vigano’s Vote Scare
    « Reply #20 on: October 31, 2024, 08:56:52 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on October 31, 2024, 04:37:13 PM
    Agree.  I'd say probably 99% of Trad clerics would say it's not a sin to vote for him.


    If something isn't a sin, then how can it be an "error"?  (In this case, you are using "error" not in the sense of a mistake, but in the sense of being wrong). 


    If you want to disagree with +Vigano that one has an "obligation" to vote for Trump, then ok.  But I don't see how it can be an error to vote for him.  You're just going in the opposite extreme of +Vigano.

    Pax, 
    I think if you take the time to listen to the talk, you'll find a series of problems with Archbishop Vigano's position.
    He's not arguing from a Catholic position or "Sensus fidelium", but from worn, emotional and political fear slogans.
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    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi

    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: Debunking Vigano’s Vote Scare
    « Reply #21 on: October 31, 2024, 09:05:46 PM »
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    • Quote from: 2Vermont on October 31, 2024, 08:32:44 PM
    I think your assessment above is probably pretty accurate.  I will keep an eye out for criticisms of Vigano's position and report back if I hear of any.

    Here's one a friend sent me.



    It's a bit ironic, that Father Hewko, a voice in the trad wilderness, adamantly states it's a sin to vote for any pro-abortion politician.  And anyone claiming St. Aquinas would have argued for the lessor sin, would be denying St. Thomas would consider the public execution of a pro-abort candidate, to be the normal course of events.

    It's in the sermon from the 27:00 to 32:00min mark
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    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi

    Offline Michelle

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    Re: Debunking Vigano’s Vote Scare
    « Reply #22 on: October 31, 2024, 10:39:37 PM »
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    • If my memory is correct, I recall in the last election, four years ago, all traditional voices were saying "it is a mortal sin to vote for a candidate that supports abortion".  This current presidential election, now that both candidates are openly pro-abortion in one degree or another, we hear "It's your moral obligation to vote for the lesser of two evils", mantra.  Isn't this moral relativism?
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    Offline OxenandAves

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    Re: Debunking Vigano’s Vote Scare
    « Reply #23 on: October 31, 2024, 11:54:17 PM »
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    • Quote from: Incredulous on October 31, 2024, 09:05:46 PM

    Here's one a friend sent me.



    It's a bit ironic, that Father Hewko, a voice in the trad wilderness, adamantly states it's a sin to vote for any pro-abortion politician.  And anyone claiming St. Aquinas would have argued for the lessor sin, would be denying St. Thomas would consider the public execution of a pro-abort candidate, to be the normal course of events.

    It's in the sermon from the 27:00 to 32:00min mark
    God bless Father Hewko!
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Debunking Vigano’s Vote Scare
    « Reply #24 on: November 01, 2024, 06:19:42 AM »
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    • Quote from: Incredulous on October 31, 2024, 08:56:52 PM
    Pax, 
    I think if you take the time to listen to the talk, you'll find a series of problems with Archbishop Vigano's position.
    He's not arguing from a Catholic position or "Sensus fidelium", but from worn, emotional and political fear slogans.
    Incredulous, I don't think anyone in this thread is saying they agree with Vigano on this.   
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Debunking Vigano’s Vote Scare
    « Reply #25 on: November 01, 2024, 06:24:42 AM »
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    • Quote from: Incredulous on October 31, 2024, 09:05:46 PM

    Here's one a friend sent me.



    It's a bit ironic, that Father Hewko, a voice in the trad wilderness, adamantly states it's a sin to vote for any pro-abortion politician.  And anyone claiming St. Aquinas would have argued for the lessor sin, would be denying St. Thomas would consider the public execution of a pro-abort candidate, to be the normal course of events.

    It's in the sermon from the 27:00 to 32:00min mark
    Well, Fr Hewko is arguing the complete opposite of Vigano.  Is that the type of debunking you are looking for from Trad bishops?  Wouldn't debunking of Vigano also include those who are of the opinion that it is permissible to vote for Trump (but not an obligation)?
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Debunking Vigano’s Vote Scare
    « Reply #26 on: November 01, 2024, 07:08:43 AM »
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    • Quote from: Michelle on October 31, 2024, 10:39:37 PM
    If my memory is correct, I recall in the last election, four years ago, all traditional voices were saying "it is a mortal sin to vote for a candidate that supports abortion".  This current presidential election, now that both candidates are openly pro-abortion in one degree or another, we hear "It's your moral obligation to vote for the lesser of two evils", mantra.  Isn't this moral relativism?
    President George W. Bush supported abortion in cases of rape, incest and life of the mother.  Was it sinful to vote for him in 2000?
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    Offline Mark 79

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    Re: Debunking Vigano’s Vote Scare
    « Reply #27 on: November 01, 2024, 08:34:02 AM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on October 31, 2024, 05:34:16 PM
    :facepalm:  Abortion is governed by the states.  It is no longer governed by the President or federal law. 
    Oh? So we no longer need to work for the Social Reign of Christ the King… on the federal level, that is. :facepalm:
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    Offline josefamenendez

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    Re: Debunking Vigano’s Vote Scare
    « Reply #28 on: November 01, 2024, 08:50:17 AM »
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    • Quote from: 2Vermont on November 01, 2024, 07:08:43 AM
    President George W. Bush supported abortion in cases of rape, incest and life of the mother.  Was it sinful to vote for him in 2000?
    Did he support the abortion pill like Trump does? (they had RU486 back then , too)
     Over 63% of all abortions are done medically ( by pill) today. Abortion by pill is NOT restricted to rape incest and life of the mother.

     Supporting the abortion pill makes most all abortion restrictions moot. You know this.
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Debunking Vigano’s Vote Scare
    « Reply #29 on: November 01, 2024, 09:10:59 AM »
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    • Quote from: josefamenendez on November 01, 2024, 08:50:17 AM
    Did he support the abortion pill like Trump does? (they had RU486 back then , too)
     Over 63% of all abortions are done medically ( by pill) today. Abortion by pill is NOT restricted to rape incest and life of the mother.

     Supporting the abortion pill makes most all abortion restrictions moot. You know this.
    He accepted the FDA approval of RU-486.  Even if he did not, the question is... if a presidential candidate supports any kind/amount of abortion, is it a sin to vote for them?  If it's a sin to vote for Trump based on abortion, wouldn't it also be a sin to vote for Bush?
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