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Author Topic: DEBATE on whether protestants and orthodox are within the Church  (Read 4473 times)

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Offline CatholicTraditionalist

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DEBATE on whether protestants and orthodox are within the Church
« on: September 25, 2019, 09:59:35 AM »
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    • The traditional Catholic, Brother Peter Dimond of the Most Holy Family Monastery, called into last Saturday's "reason and theology" LIVE YouTube show to confront Dr Robert Fastiggi on his claim that protestants and the orthodox are within the body of Christ.  Br Peter enters the discussion at around 1:12:50. 



    Please listen in and give your thoughts on the discussion. Thank you.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: DEBATE on whether protestants and orthodox are within the Church
    « Reply #1 on: September 25, 2019, 10:50:08 AM »
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    • This might be fun.  I recall when Bishop Sanborn debated Fastiggi.  It was enlightening when Bishop Sanborn clearly lost ... due to his position on EENS.  If you say that non-Catholics can be saved, then you have to say that non-Catholics can be in the Church ... and, consequently, there's nothing wrong at all with V2 ecclesiology.
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    Offline CatholicInAmerica

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    Re: DEBATE on whether protestants and orthodox are within the Church
    « Reply #2 on: September 25, 2019, 11:28:41 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on September 25, 2019, 10:50:08 AM
    This might be fun.  I recall when Bishop Sanborn debated Fastiggi.  It was enlightening when Bishop Sanborn clearly lost ... due to his position on EENS.  If you say that non-Catholics can be saved, then you have to say that non-Catholics can be in the Church ... and, consequently, there's nothing wrong at all with V2 ecclesiology.
    So is bishop samborn a heretic? What exactly is his position on EENS?
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: DEBATE on whether protestants and orthodox are within the Church
    « Reply #3 on: September 25, 2019, 11:37:59 AM »
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    • Quote from: CatholicInAmerica on September 25, 2019, 11:28:41 AM
    So is bishop samborn a heretic? What exactly is his position on EENS?

    I haven't studied his position in detail.  I simply know that he contradicted himself, one the one hand declaring the V2 ecclesiology heretical, but then saying that non-Catholics could be saved (since that puts them in the Church).

    It is my understanding that +Sanborn believes that non-Catholics can be saved.  That is in fact objectively heretical.
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    Offline LeDeg

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    Re: DEBATE on whether protestants and orthodox are within the Church
    « Reply #4 on: September 25, 2019, 12:47:43 PM »
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    • Albrecht and Fasitggi were pathetic.
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    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: DEBATE on whether protestants and orthodox are within the Church
    « Reply #5 on: September 25, 2019, 05:24:03 PM »
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    • Quote from: LeDeg on September 25, 2019, 12:47:43 PM
    Albrecht and Fasitggi were pathetic.
    They'll never say that Vatican II is in error, or they'll lose their positions, their income source, their customers. So, they have to come up with something to say, they re-invent the wheel.

    Dimond should have just asked them if a 3 times married Eastern Orthodox (they can marry 3 times in the EO religion) that comes out of a confessional (confessing their sins to a EO priest) and dies, does he go to hell? 

    One is either in the Church or they are not, if that EO is in the Church he is saved, if he is not then he is damned. 
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    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: DEBATE on whether protestants and orthodox are within the Church
    « Reply #6 on: September 25, 2019, 08:56:48 PM »
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    • Quote from: Last Tradhican on September 25, 2019, 05:24:03 PM
    They'll never say that Vatican II is in error, or they'll lose their positions, their income source, their customers. So, they have to come up with something to say, they re-invent the wheel.

    Dimond should have just asked them if a 3 times married Eastern Orthodox (they can marry 3 times in the EO religion) that comes out of a confessional (confessing their sins to a EO priest) and dies, does he go to hell?

    One is either in the Church or they are not, if that EO is in the Church he is saved, if he is not then he is damned.
    Do you believe every single EO, without exception, is "Outside the Church?"  Why or why not?

    I think the answer to your question would be, if they knew what they were doing is wrong and did it anyway, they'd be damned.  Even if they didn't know it was wrong, they could be damned for something else that they knew.  But we don't know for sure.
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    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: DEBATE on whether protestants and orthodox are within the Church
    « Reply #7 on: September 25, 2019, 08:58:03 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on September 25, 2019, 10:50:08 AM
    This might be fun.  I recall when Bishop Sanborn debated Fastiggi.  It was enlightening when Bishop Sanborn clearly lost ... due to his position on EENS.  If you say that non-Catholics can be saved, then you have to say that non-Catholics can be in the Church ... and, consequently, there's nothing wrong at all with V2 ecclesiology.
    I think Vatican II is wrong in terms of its actual application because they gave an inch and took a mile.

    But beyond that I'm not sure what to say.
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    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: DEBATE on whether protestants and orthodox are within the Church
    « Reply #8 on: September 26, 2019, 04:21:58 AM »
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    • Quote from: ByzCat3000 on September 25, 2019, 08:56:48 PM
    Do you believe every single EO, without exception, is "Outside the Church?"  Why or why not?

    I think the answer to your question would be, if they knew what they were doing is wrong and did it anyway, they'd be damned.  Even if they didn't know it was wrong, they could be damned for something else that they knew.  But we don't know for sure.
    You answered your own question, except where you say that "But we don't know for sure", for we do know for sure that they are damned  "if they knew what they were doing is wrong and did it anyway, they'd be damned.  Even if they didn't know it was wrong, they could be damned for something else that they knew". 

    We know what we know to save our souls only because we assented to His Grace. If a person is an EO, he is so because he has not fully assented to God's Grace. 
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    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline Viva Cristo Rey

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    Re: DEBATE on whether protestants and orthodox are within the Church
    « Reply #9 on: September 26, 2019, 06:32:15 AM »
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    • Vatican II created by liberals in the church with the help of 6 liberal Protestants and liberal Rabbis.  Vatican II was created to destroy the Church from within.  Nothing ecuмenical about it when most Catholics don’t know or reject the basics of their faith to break first commandment by worshipping false gods. 
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: DEBATE on whether protestants and orthodox are within the Church
    « Reply #10 on: September 26, 2019, 09:06:13 AM »
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    • Quote from: ByzCat3000 on September 25, 2019, 08:56:48 PM
    Do you believe every single EO, without exception, is "Outside the Church?"  Why or why not?

    Yes, absolutely.  This is and always has been the teaching of the Church.

    Now, is it possible that there's a PUTATIVE EO somewhere who is so befuddled in mind and so ignorant, knowing only the most basic rudiments of the faith, that he still retains the formal motive of faith?  Possibly.  BUT, in that case he'd actually be a Catholic, formally speaking, even if materially EO, or rather, appearing to be EO.  His state would be similar to that of an infant baptized EO.  If he died, say, at the age of 3, he would saved ... but as a Catholic.  Starting at around the age of reason, the formal motive of faith gradually wanes.  But I assume there could be someone so ignorant and confused that he retains this formal motive.

    Here's the dogma:  only Catholics can be saved.  Period.  No exceptions.  If anyone at all has ever been saved, it's because he was a Catholic.
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    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: DEBATE on whether protestants and orthodox are within the Church
    « Reply #11 on: September 26, 2019, 09:53:04 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on September 26, 2019, 09:06:13 AM
    Yes, absolutely.  This is and always has been the teaching of the Church.

    Now, is it possible that there's a PUTATIVE EO somewhere who is so befuddled in mind and so ignorant, knowing only the most basic rudiments of the faith, that he still retains the formal motive of faith?  Possibly.  BUT, in that case he'd actually be a Catholic, formally speaking, even if materially EO, or rather, appearing to be EO.  His state would be similar to that of an infant baptized EO.  If he died, say, at the age of 3, he would saved ... but as a Catholic.  Starting at around the age of reason, the formal motive of faith gradually wanes.  But I assume there could be someone so ignorant and confused that he retains this formal motive.

    Here's the dogma:  only Catholics can be saved.  Period.  No exceptions.  If anyone at all has ever been saved, it's because he was a Catholic.
    Well technically the dogma is that you have to be inside the Church because outside the Church there is no salvation.
    From the way you defined the formal motive of faith previously, I’m not sure why it wouldn’t be fairly common for an “EO” to have it.  But perhaps I misunderstood you somewhere.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: DEBATE on whether protestants and orthodox are within the Church
    « Reply #12 on: September 26, 2019, 11:23:32 AM »
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    • Quote from: ByzCat3000 on September 26, 2019, 09:53:04 AM
    Well technically the dogma is that you have to be inside the Church because outside the Church there is no salvation.
    From the way you defined the formal motive of faith previously, I’m not sure why it wouldn’t be fairly common for an “EO” to have it.  But perhaps I misunderstood you somewhere.

    It's possible for a PURE schismatic to have the formal motive of faith, but then separate from the Church through a failure of charity.  But the problem is that the EO have also fallen into heresy because they have substituted the infallible rule of truth, the teaching of the Church, with their own fallible rule ... and have therefore fallen into error.

    Now, positing a purely schismatic group where they have not clung to any error but just broke off unity, they could conceivably have the formal motive of faith, but they would fall outside the Church through a failure of charity.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: DEBATE on whether protestants and orthodox are within the Church
    « Reply #13 on: September 26, 2019, 11:26:46 AM »
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    • St. Thomas Aquinas:

    Quote
    The formal object of faith is the First Truth as manifested in Holy Scripture and in the Church's teaching. Hence if anyone does not adhere as to an infallible and Divine rule to the Church's teaching, which proceeds from the Church's truth manifested in Holy Scripture, such an one has not the habit of faith, but holds the truths of faith not by faith but by some other principle (II-II, Q. v, a. 3)
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    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: DEBATE on whether protestants and orthodox are within the Church
    « Reply #14 on: September 26, 2019, 12:01:51 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on September 26, 2019, 11:26:46 AM
    St. Thomas Aquinas:
    My problem with this is that the EO would agree with it, they'd just be wrong about *Which* Church is the Catholic Church. Kind of like how Vatican II Catholics are wrong about which one on Sedevacantist premises, or vice versa.

    I'm not trying to subjectivize the EO's error, but the EO who truly accepts ALL Of what their Church teaches seems to by this definition have the correct formal motive and simply instead be wrong on *what* is the Catholic Church.

    As opposed to say a Protestant who isn't grounding his views in the teaching authority of the Catholic Church, *however* you define that, but on his own interpretation of a book.

    I promise i'm not just trying to make excuses here.  I'm just trying to reason this through rationally.
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