That's irrelevant.
And frankly this is the *type* of argument a Protestant would use. "Oh, you have to become like little children, so the faith doesn't have to make sense. Just accept X, Y, or Z." It was the rejection of that type of ridiculous thinking that led me out of Protestantism in the first place.
Now that's not to say you can reject a dogma just because I disagree with it. But the problem is the people on this forum have an excuse for any example I bring up pre Vatican II that disagrees with them, but then they can't actually explain rationally why the reasoning used in the example would not also apply here. And then they accuse the Baltimore Catechism and similar things of "liberalizing" even though the Church Fathers at times say very similar things, because the thing isn't *exactly* the same, somehow..
Your problem ( though not to the degree of others like you), the problem with the 99% of Catholics today who believe that anyone can be saved, is that they never read the dogmas on EENS. They dismiss them completely because they do not like what they say and they go to anybody and everywhere else to interpret the dogmas according to their own desires.
Dogmas are the final word from the Holy Ghost. Dogma does not need interpretation, or else it is not the final word, it is useless.
What those dogmatic Decrees MeanFrom:
Who Shall Ascend, by Fr. Wathen
Being ex cathedra definitions, they must be taken literally, unequivocally, and absolutely. Hence, to attempt to modify or qualify them in any way is to deny them.
3. The doctrine says clearly that only Catholics go to Heaven; all others are lost, that is, they do not go to Heaven, but to Hell.
All who are inclined to dispute this dogma should have the good sense to realize that if this is not what the words of the definitions mean, the Church would never have promulgated such a position. To give any other meaning to these words is to portray the Church as foolish and ridiculous.4. The pronouncements indicate that, by divine decree, those only will be saved who are members of the Church when they die. This membership must be formal, real, explicit, and, in those of the (mental) age of reason, deliberate. There is no such thing as "potential" membership in the Church, or "implicit" membership, or "quasi-membership," or "invisible membership," or anything of the kind. Neither can those who are catechumens, that is, those who are preparing to enter the Church, be considered members.
12. Let the reader accept the reasonable fact that
the Pontiffs who pronounced these decrees were perfectly literate and fully cognizant of what they were saying. If there were any need to soften or qualify their meanings, they were quite capable of doing so. They were not regarded as heretics or fanatics at the time of their pronouncements, and have never been labelled such by the Church to this very day. It is an easy thing for the people of this "enlightened" age to fall into the modern delusion that the men of former times, especially those of the Middle Ages, were not as bright as we are, so that they sometimes said they knew not what.
13. The dates of these definitions are extremely important. They mark the time when the Church terminated speculation and discussion among theologians on the subject of the conditions of salvation. All writings on this subject, therefore, which predate these definitions have value only in so far as they corroborate these definitions.
Just read the first dogma below and tell me what there is to interpret? The other dogmas confirm the same over and over. Who is playing "Protestant self interpreting scripture" here, you or me? Dogma is not scripture, it is the final word. It is dogma that Nadir is talking about when he says that it must be read as children, children listening to their Father's truth.
Excerpts of the Nine Dogmatic DecreesPope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, “Cantate Domino,” 1441, ex cathedra:
“The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches
that all those who are outside the Catholic Church,
not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire ..and that
nobody can be saved, …
even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”
Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, Constitution 1, 1215, ex cathedra: “There is indeed one universal Church of the faithful, outside of which
nobody at all is saved, …
Pope Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctam, Nov. 18, 1302, ex cathedra:
“… this Church outside of which there is no salvation
nor remission of sin… Furthermore, …
every human creature that they by absolute necessity for salvation are entirely subject to the Roman Pontiff.”
Pope Clement V, Council of Vienne, Decree # 30, 1311-1312, ex cathedra:
“… one universal Church, outside of which there is no salvation, for all of whom there is one Lord, one faith, and one baptism…”
Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, Sess. 8, Nov. 22, 1439, ex cathedra:
“Whoever wishes to be saved, needs above all
to hold the Catholic faith; unless each one preserves this whole and inviolate, he will
without a doubt perish in eternity.”
Pope Leo X, Fifth Lateran Council, Session 11, Dec. 19, 1516, ex cathedra:
“For, regulars and seculars, prelates and subjects, exempt and non-exempt, belong to the one universal Church, outside of which
no one at all is saved, and they all have one Lord and one faith.”
Pope Pius IV, Council of Trent, Iniunctum nobis, Nov. 13, 1565, ex cathedra: “This true
Catholic faith, outside of which
no one can be saved… I now profess and truly hold…”
Pope Benedict XIV, Nuper ad nos, March 16, 1743, Profession of Faith: “This faith of the Catholic Church, without which
no one can be saved, and which of my own accord I now profess and truly hold…”
Pope Pius IX, Vatican Council I, Session 2, Profession of Faith, 1870, ex cathedra: “This true Catholic faith, outside of which
none can be saved, which I now freely profess and truly hold…”
Topic: DEBATE on whether protestants and orthodox are within the Church (Read 11590 times)