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Author Topic: DEBATE on whether protestants and orthodox are within the Church  (Read 11856 times)

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Offline Last Tradhican

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Re: DEBATE on whether protestants and orthodox are within the Church
« Reply #45 on: September 27, 2019, 12:05:23 PM »
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  • I’m just saying Judas is the only PARTICULAR individual of who’s damnation we can be certain
    We are on two opposite poles you and I. You believe for certain on only one person, Judas, being damned, while I believe with certainty that only 3 of 100 of my dead family are saved (and maybe another 10 made it to Purgatory, maybe not).

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    They even go so far as to say that Judas may not be in Hell, like JPII did. Meanwhile, of all of my family members and close family that have died since I was a child, maybe near to 100 people, I am certain of only 3 that were saved and of the others maybe another 10 may have made it to Purgatory, maybe not. AND all were baptized Catholics who died from 1970 till present.


    Online Stubborn

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    Re: DEBATE on whether protestants and orthodox are within the Church
    « Reply #46 on: September 27, 2019, 12:12:39 PM »
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  • No you misunderstood me.  I think it’s a point of revelation that Judas is damned so I disagree with those who say that he could have been saved (like JPII.). There are many, many others who seem much more likely to have been damned than not, but I can’t know for SURE that any PARTICULAR one is damned.  Even hitler, while it seems almost impossible, could’ve repented at the very last second.  I don’t know with ABSOLUTE certainty that he did not.  As far as the various baptized Christians who are not visibly Catholic goes, I think some of them have mitigating enough factors that they aren’t mortally culpable for this, I agree with the Baltimore catechism and the accompanying explanations of it on this, but that doesn’t mean I think such people are LIKELY to be saved.  I think those who are visibly Protestant are less likely to be saved cause they’d have to have perfect contrition, which is hard to do.
    Here's the thing though, although most unlikely, it is possible that a person who for their whole life rejected the graces to join the Church, could possibly be said to have a last minute repentance, or death bed conversion, or some other noble sounding last nanosecond perfect contrition, but what we do not know is if God actually decides to accept those questionable-at-best last moment regrets. All we can say is that according to dogma, do not depend on it.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: DEBATE on whether protestants and orthodox are within the Church
    « Reply #47 on: September 27, 2019, 12:24:57 PM »
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  • Quote
    As far as the various baptized Christians who are not visibly Catholic goes, I think some of them have mitigating enough factors that they aren’t mortally culpable for this, I agree with the Baltimore catechism and the accompanying explanations of it on this, but that doesn’t mean I think such people are LIKELY to be saved.
     Church dogma says that baptized non-catholics cannot gain heaven.

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    I think those who are visibly Protestant are less likely to be saved cause they’d have to have perfect contrition, which is hard to do.
    Church dogma says that unbaptized protestants cannot gain heaven.
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    Where the devil tries to get us confused is by 1) attempting to understand God's workings in other souls, 2) attempting to understand other's spiritual life, based on our superficial knowledge of them, 3) attempting to understand how grace and good will work together.
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    It's an exercise that will leave us frustrated because it's just unknowable.  And the devil will tempt us to either 1) overestimate God's mercy at the expense of His justice...which leads to lukewarmness, or 2) overestimate God's justice over His mercy...which leads to cold rigidity.
    .
    If you just accept Church doctrine as it is, then life will be easier.  You can never explain salvation - it's a spiritual mystery.

    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: DEBATE on whether protestants and orthodox are within the Church
    « Reply #48 on: September 27, 2019, 12:29:59 PM »
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  • Here's the thing though, although most unlikely, it is possible that a person who for their whole life rejected the graces to join the Church, could possibly be said to have a last minute repentance, or death bed conversion, or some other noble sounding last nanosecond perfect contrition, but what we do not know is if God actually decides to accept those questionable-at-best last moment regrets. All we can say is that according to dogma, do not depend on it.
    I actually think this is conceptually pretty clear.
    If this was true perfect contrition God would accept it.  Mere “regret” without perfect contrition would not.
    What I guess the real question is, to put it simply, is every single Protestant and EO I. Mortal sin on the simple ground that they have not visibly joined with Rome.  Most here would say this is certainly the case.  I at present would say that this is likely to be the case, but not certainly so. Weirdly, almost all trad clergy agree with me on this point, so it can’t be chalked up solely to “new convert”.  Nevertheless I could be wrong.  Lefebvre could’ve been wrong too.  As could almost all trad clergy I guess.
    Last Tradician is much more confident of the damnation of particular individuals than I am

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: DEBATE on whether protestants and orthodox are within the Church
    « Reply #49 on: September 27, 2019, 12:35:35 PM »
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  • Right, of course God can convert anyone in his dying moments, but the Holy Office considered it problematic to add even the qualifier:  Confucius was MOST LIKELY damned.  Once you start talking like that, the floodgates open up against EENS.  Now the Church has always operated on the external forum.  So if someone dies to all appearances outside the Church, the position is:  "they're lost".  Period.  No qualifiers.  No hemming and hawing.  Could we in the next life find that someone presumed damned was saved by some extraordinary case?  Sure.  But there's a great danger in starting to think that way.  On earth, the Church is a visible society whose membership is clearly known and determined.  According to the Church Militant, then, they are categorically lost.  According to the Church Triumphant, however, they may have different information.

    So, for instance, based on the Holy Office statement, you would say that there are many in hell, those who died outside the Church.  Bill was Eastern Orthodox and he died last week without showing any sign of conversion.  Bill lost his soul.  STOP.  End of Thought.

    If someone asked me, "was Bill lost?"  I would say, yes, Bill was lost, not saved.  Otherwise, if I said, "Bill was most likely lost." then I open a crack of doubt in the interlocutor's mind that EENS may not in fact be true but has "exceptions".  In fact, most people today would start immediately prevaricating:  "Well, it's POSSIBLE that Bill could have been saved." or even "It's likely that Bill was saved, because he was a sincere faithful EO ... and he was a nice guy."


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: DEBATE on whether protestants and orthodox are within the Church
    « Reply #50 on: September 27, 2019, 12:41:12 PM »
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  • I actually think this is conceptually pretty clear.
    If this was true perfect contrition God would accept it.  Mere “regret” without perfect contrition would not.
    What I guess the real question is, to put it simply, is every single Protestant and EO ...

    Here's the thing about "perfect contrition".  It's a commonly brushed-aside teaching of Trent that perfect contrition by itself does not suffice to restore someone to a state of grace.  This perfect contrition must be accompanied by the intention to receive the Sacrament of Confession.  How many Protestants have that?

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: DEBATE on whether protestants and orthodox are within the Church
    « Reply #51 on: September 27, 2019, 01:08:02 PM »
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  • Last Tradician is much more confident of the damnation of particular individuals than I am

    Well, he's merely following the directives of the Holy Office.  Are you not confident that Confucius is lost?

    Online Stubborn

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    Re: DEBATE on whether protestants and orthodox are within the Church
    « Reply #52 on: September 27, 2019, 01:19:57 PM »
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  • I actually think this is conceptually pretty clear.
    If this was true perfect contrition God would accept it.  Mere “regret” without perfect contrition would not.
    Not really true for the simple reason that only God can say if the (supposed) perfect contrition was perfect enough for Him. Remember He, being God, is not one who has to take what we have to offer or he's out of luck. God has some pretty high standards after all, presuming that He *will* accept a perfect contrition is in reality, actually meaningless to Him.

    He established the Kingdom of God in this world because He willed that it is only through this Kingdom we may enter into His eternal Kingdom in heaven. His Kingdom in this world is of course the Catholic Church, wherein is the only place to find the sacraments He established and left for us to make use of.  

    It is because in this life we have no way of knowing if our sins are forgiven through contrition, that God established the Church and left us with the sacraments, of which the partaking of the sacrament of Penance or Extreme Unction are "visible signs" that our sins are, with faith, certainly forgiven. God will certainly provide the eternal life giving sacraments to anyone and everyone who needs them and sincerely desires them, and He does this for His greater glory and their own salvation.

    The idea of a supposed last moment perfect act of contrition, or a supposed last moment repentance, only leaves us all scratching our heads and wondering if the guy made it, and most often we'll console ourselves by saying "certainly he made it", but where is the greater glory of God in any of that?
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: DEBATE on whether protestants and orthodox are within the Church
    « Reply #53 on: September 27, 2019, 02:09:20 PM »
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  • Well, he's merely following the directives of the Holy Office.  Are you not confident that Confucius is lost?
    Absolutely confident?  No.  I can appreciate why St Pius X wanted absolutely no qualifiers, because it’s easy for people to get confused, but in and of itself this wouldn’t be a de fide pronouncement, at most it was a binding command on all Catholics living during St Pius Xs pontificate.
    I have substantive doubt that all the Church Fathers would have absolute confidence here either.  I don’t even think you do, based on the qualifiers made earlier 

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: DEBATE on whether protestants and orthodox are within the Church
    « Reply #54 on: September 27, 2019, 02:42:49 PM »
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  • Byzcat, you’re confusing church doctrine with salvific reality.  Church doctrine says Confucius is lost.  No one knows where Confucius is, really.  Church doctrine is teaching BASED ON APPEARANCES.  That’s all we have to go on.  That’s how Christ told us to judge “He who believes and is baptized is saved; he who doth not believe is condemned.”  If you keep thinking of salvation in terms of “possibilities” then you’re in for a world of confusion.  This is not how a catholic should look at things. 

    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: DEBATE on whether protestants and orthodox are within the Church
    « Reply #55 on: September 27, 2019, 02:53:19 PM »
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  • Byzcat, you’re confusing church doctrine with salvific reality.  Church doctrine says Confucius is lost.  No one knows where Confucius is, really.  Church doctrine is teaching BASED ON APPEARANCES.  That’s all we have to go on.  That’s how Christ told us to judge “He who believes and is baptized is saved; he who doth not believe is condemned.”  If you keep thinking of salvation in terms of “possibilities” then you’re in for a world of confusion.  This is not how a catholic should look at things.
    Then why isn’t “he appears lost but we don’t know” sufficient?  Why do we have to say he was damned? 


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: DEBATE on whether protestants and orthodox are within the Church
    « Reply #56 on: September 27, 2019, 03:05:04 PM »
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  • Then why isn’t “he appears lost but we don’t know” sufficient?  Why do we have to say he was damned?

    Because the moment you begin attempting to articulate this, EENS is undermined.  We stick with Church teaching.  Confucius is lost.

    If someone asks, "Do you think Confucius may have been saved?"  Answer is an unequivocal, "No" as in "No I don't."  As soon as you start into the usual, "Well, maybe." then the interlocutor walks away in his mind with, "So is the Church even serious about" EENS?  You can come up with 10 pages of distinctions and explanations for why it doesn't violate EENS, but the only take-away is the impression that salvation is possible outside the Church.

    Let's say I go buy a lottery ticket, and the odds are one in ten million that I might win.  If someone asks me, "So, do you think you might win?"  Of course I'd answer "No.".  I buy the ticket HOPING I might win, but I really don't think I'm going to.  Is there a one-in-ten-million chance I might win?  Yes.  But that isn't enough to justify a "Yes" answer to "Do you think you might win?"

    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: DEBATE on whether protestants and orthodox are within the Church
    « Reply #57 on: September 27, 2019, 04:19:33 PM »
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  • Because the moment you begin attempting to articulate this, EENS is undermined.  We stick with Church teaching.  Confucius is lost.

    If someone asks, "Do you think Confucius may have been saved?"  Answer is an unequivocal, "No" as in "No I don't."  As soon as you start into the usual, "Well, maybe." then the interlocutor walks away in his mind with, "So is the Church even serious about" EENS?  You can come up with 10 pages of distinctions and explanations for why it doesn't violate EENS, but the only take-away is the impression that salvation is possible outside the Church.

    Let's say I go buy a lottery ticket, and the odds are one in ten million that I might win.  If someone asks me, "So, do you think you might win?"  Of course I'd answer "No.".  I buy the ticket HOPING I might win, but I really don't think I'm going to.  Is there a one-in-ten-million chance I might win?  Yes.  But that isn't enough to justify a "Yes" answer to "Do you think you might win?"
    I would consider EENS to be less what’s threatened here, and more the ecclesiology that says that ONLY visible members are inside the Church.  And I don’t think this has been adequately proven, and I’ve raised objections to it previously, that I don’t think have been adequately refuted.  Certainly some have agreed with you throughout church history but I’m not yet convinced that all did even prior to 1600 (Justin martyr for instance).
    I affirm EENS.  If you could accuse me of anything, it’s not really denying EENS, but rather perhaps accepting a mild form of V2 ecclesiology.  Which I’ll grant is possible but then if I do than so did lefebvre and so did most trad priests.  My big objection to V2 here is turning hope into near certainty, or an excuse to be ecuмenical rather than try to make converts, because certainly the only way to MAKE SURE you’re inside the Church is to actually join 

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: DEBATE on whether protestants and orthodox are within the Church
    « Reply #58 on: September 27, 2019, 04:48:36 PM »
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  • Inside the Church = baptized, active member who believes all the Church teaches. 
    .
    Anything else is just a theory and probably heretical.  

    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: DEBATE on whether protestants and orthodox are within the Church
    « Reply #59 on: September 27, 2019, 04:51:19 PM »
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  • Inside the Church = baptized, active member who believes all the Church teaches.
    .
    Anything else is just a theory and probably heretical.  
    According to what though?  That’s the unproven premise here