Author Topic: DEBATE on whether protestants and orthodox are within the Church (Read 4480 times)

Stubborn · « **Reply #30 on:** September 27, 2019, 06:20:10 AM »

Quote from: ByzCat3000 on September 26, 2019, 11:24:58 PM

The only person I’m confident saying is certainly in hell is Judas iscariot, nevertheless, the further you get from
The truth, the more unlikely invincible ignorance is, and the more likely you won’t be saved even if you’re invincibly ignorant cause you’ll be damned for another mortal sin.
Or at least that’s how I understand it at the moment

The term "invincibly ignorant", whatever it meant in the middle ages, does not mean the same thing these days when nearly everyone has relatively immediate access to whatever information they want to know about.

I looked up the term "invincible ignorance" once, it basically means; "incapable of thinking". As in one who was either born or became brain damaged.

What Pax is correctly saying, is that *all those* who do not know the true faith and Church, do not know it because they do not want to know it. This "not wanting to know" is what passes for "invincible ignorance" today - yet, if you accused the EO or prots of being invincibly ignorant, they would be insulted by that - which means they are entirely capable of thinking.

What Fr. Wathen says below about prots, is true for the EO and to all those outside of the Church......

"...To receive baptism only and not to have the faith is as if to be wired without current, if you don’t mind a homely example. And protestants of their own free choice, refuse the Church. They claim to believe in Christ but they reject Christ’s teaching, they reject His authority, they reject His Vicar, they reject His discipline, they reject, in a word, everything that they do not want to accept.

They do not want the rituals, they do not want the Mass, they do not want the Virgin Mary in any capacity, they do not want to be told what they must believe. They want to decide. And they say they believe only that which is in the Scriptures. And we say, protestants have dared to separate the scriptures from the Church, this is like having a manual for a car without a car. It is totally useless, the bible is totally useless for salvation outside the Church…"

Pax Vobis · « **Reply #31 on:** September 27, 2019, 08:20:22 AM »

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I’m just saying I’m not persuaded that they are automatically damned in every case. I think some might have invincible ignorance and might be Catholic despite being intellectually wrong about what the Catholic Church is.

As Stubborn pointed out, invincible ignorance has to do with children, the retarded and the Indians living on a remote island. It's impossible to be invincibly ignorant of the Church, yet know about Her teachings. If you want to say they are ignorant (but not invincibly so), then ok. St Thomas says that ignorance is a punishment for sin; sins of omission (spiritual laziness) or sins of act (rejection of the truth).
.

Quote

The only person I’m confident saying is certainly in hell is Judas Iscariot.

No one is asking you to damn anyone to hell, but if you can't say that protestants and EOs who die before reconciling with the Church are in hell, then you aren't following Church doctrine. You would argue that "Well, it doesn't make sense to me and I'm trying to figure it out." Ok, that's well and good and you are putting forth efforts to learn, by using this site and by prayers on the matter. Aren't you a convert to Tradition, in some capacity?

ByzCat3000 · « **Reply #32 on:** September 27, 2019, 10:05:44 AM »

Quote from: Pax Vobis on September 27, 2019, 08:20:22 AM

As Stubborn pointed out, invincible ignorance has to do with children, the retarded and the Indians living on a remote island. It's impossible to be invincibly ignorant of the Church, yet know about Her teachings. If you want to say they are ignorant (but not invincibly so), then ok. St Thomas says that ignorance is a punishment for sin; sins of omission (spiritual laziness) or sins of act (rejection of the truth).
.No one is asking you to damn anyone to hell, but if you can't say that protestants and EOs who die before reconciling with the Church are in hell, then you aren't following Church doctrine. You would argue that "Well, it doesn't make sense to me and I'm trying to figure it out." Ok, that's well and good and you are putting forth efforts to learn, by using this site and by prayers on the matter. Aren't you a convert to Tradition, in some capacity?

To answer your question, I converted from Protestantism less than a year ago. And whatever the Church teaches, I accept, what I’m unsure of in this case is whether you and stubborn are interpreting the dogma correctly. If you were, and I knew that you were, I would assent to it. I’m always willing to learn.
I’ll have to get to the rest later

Ladislaus · « **Reply #33 on:** September 27, 2019, 10:45:31 AM »

Quote from: ByzCat3000 on September 27, 2019, 10:05:44 AM

To answer your question, I converted from Protestantism less than a year ago. And whatever the Church teaches, I accept, what I’m unsure of in this case is whether you and stubborn are interpreting the dogma correctly. If you were, and I knew that you were, I would assent to it. I’m always willing to learn.
I’ll have to get to the rest later

Well, the dogma is very clear and has no room for interpretation. Only Catholics can be saved. We cannot say that EOs are saved.

Now, if there happen to be some living among the EO who still have the Catholic faith (due to being confused and befuddled), then they are in fact Catholic and not EO, just like an infant baptized by the EO who dies before reaching the age of reason. But we must be clear that "sincerity" doesn't not supply for a lack of Catholic faith. That's the greatest error of modern times. Sincerity can excuse from the positive sin of infidelity, but it cannot supply for a faith that is not there. Now, it's possible for lack of culpability to play a role in schism. But the issue is that the Orthodox are not merely schismatic; they also don't have the Catholic rule of faith.

Let me give a clear example of befuddlement. Some EO missionary goes into a jungle, finds some pagan, and gets him to believe in the Holy Trinity and Incarnation, and baptizes him as he lay dying. That person would be saved, but it's because he was saved as a Catholic, not having embraced any positive error that would have undermined his supernatural faith. That scenario is similar to that of the dying baptized "EO" infant. Could some people persist into the age of reason in this simple, ignorant, inculpable mental state? Perhaps. Only God knows. But the dogma is that once they become EO (and cease to be Catholic), they can no longer be saved (unless they first convert back to the faith).

Last Tradhican · « **Reply #34 on:** September 27, 2019, 10:52:02 AM »

Quote

The only person I’m confident saying is certainly in hell is Judas Iscariot.

The Sacred Congregation of the Propagation of the Faith, under Blessed Pope St. Pius X, in 1907, in answer to a question as to whether Confucius could have been saved, wrote:

“It is not allowed to affirm that Confucius was saved. Christians, when interrogated, must answer that those who die as infidels are damned”.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #35 on:** September 27, 2019, 11:09:29 AM »

Quote from: Last Tradhican on September 27, 2019, 10:52:02 AM

The Sacred Congregation of the Propagation of the Faith, under Blessed Pope St. Pius X, in 1907, in answer to a question as to whether Confucius could have been saved, wrote:

“It is not allowed to affirm that Confucius was saved. Christians, when interrogated, must answer that those who die as infidels are damned”.

LOL. Maybe Confucius and Judas are playing checkers down there by themselves.

But the presumption is that all non-Catholics are not lost. So if someone asks me whether a certain EO was saved, I have to respond no. Now, could God have miraculously converted someone through some direct inspiration on their deathbed? Of course. But we have no way of knowing that, so we presume that they have been lost. To say anything else is to undermine EENS dogma.

Last Tradhican · « **Reply #36 on:** September 27, 2019, 11:11:36 AM »

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The only person I’m confident saying is certainly in hell is Judas Iscariot.

For 25 years since I came back to the faith I have been listening, studying and debating with Catholics who do not believe in EENS as it is written, they can't accept the fact that only baptized Catholics who die before the age of reason, or Catholic adults who die having confessed their mortal sins or would confess their mortal if a priest was available (a perfect act of contrition), could be saved. I have pondered at what was the difference between them and those that believe the dogmas as they are written? My conclusion after all of these years is that the difference between them and I is that they believe that the majority of Catholics are saved, that the Catholics that they see every day (99% of which do not live Catholic lives in my opinion), those bad examples, if they can be saved, then certainly ANY likewise or better behaved non-Catholics can be saved too. The difference is that the saints have always said that scarcely any Catholic is saved. With all of the graces available to 99% of Catholics, they choose the world and are ALL lost. That belief that salvation is so easy, is the root of the disbelief expressed in they saying "The only person I’m confident saying is certainly in hell is Judas Iscariot", and worse yet they say "even Judas Iscariot may not be in hell".

THE TEACHINGS OF THE FATHERS, DOCTORS AND SAINTS OF THE CHURCH UPON THE FINAL DESTINY OF MOST PEOPLE.

1) Notwithstanding assurances that God did not create any man for Hell, and that He wishes all men to be saved, it remains equally true that few will be saved; that only few will go to Heaven; and that the greater part of mankind will be lost forever. (St. John Neuman)

2) It is certain that few are saved. (St. Augustine)

3) The majority of men shall not see God. (St. Julian the Martyr)

4) Those who are saved are in the minority. ( St. Thomas Aquinas)

5) The greater part of men choose to be damned rather than to love almighty God. (St. Alphonsus Liguori)

6) So vast a number of miserable souls perish, and so comparatively few are saved. (St. Philip Neri)

7) Among adults there are few saved because of the sins of the flesh....With exception of those who die in childhood, most men will be damned. (St. Remigius of Rheims)

8) Death bed conversions/repentance-there are hardly any: Out of 100,000 sinners who continue in sin until death, scarcely ONE will be saved. (St. Jerome)

9) The MAJORITY OF CATHOLICS GO TO HELL:

a) The greater number of Christians today are damned. The destiny of those dying on one day is that very few - not as many as ten - went straight to Heaven; many remained in Purgatory; and THOSE CAST INTO HELL WERE NUMEROUS AS SNOWFLAKES in mid-winter. (Bl. Anna Maria Taigi)

b) There are many who arrive at the faith, but few who are led to the heavenly kingdom. Behold how many are gathered here for today's Feast-Day; we fill the church from wall to wall. Yet who knows how FEW they are who shall be numbered in that chosen company of the elect? (Pope St. Gregory the Great)

c) The Ark, which in the midst of the Flood was the symbol of the Church, was wide below and narrow above, .... It was wide where the animals were, narrow where men lived; for the Holy Church is indeed wide in number of those who are carnal minded, narrow in the number of those who are spiritual.

( Pope St. Gregory the Great)

d) Shall we all be saved? Shall we go to heaven? Alas, my children we do not know at all! But I tremble when I see so many souls lost these days. See, they fall into Hell as leaves fall from the trees at the approach of winter. (St. John Vianney)

10) MOST PRIESTS GO TO HELL:

St. John Chrysostom, Patriarch of Constantinople, Doctor of the Church:

I do not speak rashly, but as I feel and think., I do not think that many priests are saved but that those that perish are far more numerous. The reason is that the office requires a great soul. For there are many things to make a priest swerve from rectitude, and he requires great vigilance on every side. Do you not perceive how many qualities a bishop must have that he may be apt to teach; patient towards the wicked, firm and faithful in teaching the Word? How many difficulties herein.

Moreover the loss of others is imputed to him. I need say no more. If but one dies without baptism, does it not entirely endanger his salvation? For the loss of one soul is so great an evil as no man can understand. If the salvation of one soul is of such importance that, for its sake, the Son of God became man and suffered so much, think of the penalty the loss of one soul will entail. (Third Homily, Acts of the Apostles)

b) Many religious go to Hell because they do not keep their vows. (St. Vincent Ferrer)

CATHOLICS NOT ASPIRING AND NOT LIVING AS SAINTS WILL GO TO HELL:

a) They who are enlightened to walk in the way of perfection, and through lukewarmness wish to tread the ordinary paths, shall be abandoned. (Bl. Angela of Foligno)

b) They who are to be saved as Saints, and wish to be saved as imperfect souls, shall not be saved. (Pope St. Gregory the Great)

c) St. Teresa.... had she not risen from the state of lukewarmness in which she lived, she would in the end have lost the grace of God and been damned. ( St. Alphonsus Liguori)

14) How many inhabitants of this city may perhaps be saved? What I am about to say is very terrible, yet I will not conceal it from you. Out of this thickly populated city with it's thousands of inhabitants, not 100 people will be saved. I even doubt whether there will be as many as that! ( St. John Chrysostom - the city was Antioch and its inhabitants were known to be in pursuit of comfort and the good things of life.)

15) A multitude of souls fall into the depths of Hell. (St. Anthony Mary Claret - It has been revealed that on the day of the death of St. Bernard there also died 79,997 other people, and of this total of 80,000 who died, only St. Bernard and two other monks were saved.)

16) In the great deluge in the days of Noah, all mankind perished, eight persons alone being saved in the Ark. In our days a deluge, not of water, but sins, continually inundates the earth, and out of this deluge very few escape. Scarcely anyone is saved. ( St. Alphonsus Liguori)

17) Yes indeed, many will be damned; few will be saved. (St. Benedict Joseph Labro)

18) If you only knew the women who will go to Hell because they did not bring into the world the children they should have given to it. ( St. John Vianney)

19) He who goes to Hell, goes of his own accord. Everyone who is damned, is damned because he wills his own damnation. (St. Alphonsus Liguori)

20) THOSE WHO HAVE HEARD NOTHING ABOUT THE FAITH CAN ALSO GO TO HELL:

a) When such unbelievers are damned, it is on account of other sins, which cannot be taken away without the faith, but not because of their sin of unbelief. (St. Thomas Aquinas)

b) Everyone that is of truth hears my voice. (St. John 18:37)

c) It may be true that there are, in the remotest parts of the world, some people who have not yet seen the light of the Savior. Certainly, God's manifold and ineffable goodness has always provided, and still provides, for all mankind in such a way that not one of the reprobates can find an excuse as though he had been refused the light of truth. ( St. Prosper of Aquitaine)

d) No one is lost without knowing it, and no one is deceived without wanting to be. (St. Teresa of Avila)

21) OUTSIDE OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH, THERE IS NO SALVATION:

a) No matter how praiseworthy his actions might seem, he who is separated from the Catholic Church will never enjoy eternal life (Pope Gregory XVI)

b) O ye atheists who do not believe in God, what fools you are ! But if you do believe there is a God, you must also believe there is a true religion. And if not the Roman Catholic, which is it? Perhaps that of the pagans who admit many gods, thus they deny them all. Perhaps that of Mohammed, a religion invented by an impostor and framed for beasts rather than humans. Perhaps that of the Jєωs who had the true faith at one time but, because they rejected their redeemer, lost their faith, their country, their everything. Perhaps that of the heretics who, separating themselves from our Church, have confused all revealed dogmas in such a way that the belief of one heretic is contrary to that of his neighbor. O holy faith! Enlighten all those poor blind creatures who run to eternal perdition! (St. Alphonsus Liguori)

ByzCat3000 · « **Reply #37 on:** September 27, 2019, 11:25:01 AM »

It seems most likely to me that most Catholics will be damned, so your broad brushes don’t apply to me

Last Tradhican · « **Reply #38 on:** September 27, 2019, 11:27:55 AM »

Quote

My conclusion after all of these years is that the difference between them and I is that they believe that the majority of Catholics are saved, that the Catholics that they see every day (99% of which do not live Catholic lives in my opinion), those bad examples, if they can be saved, then certainly ANY likewise or better behaved non-Catholics can be saved too.

They even go so far as to say that Judas may not be in Hell, like JPII did. Meanwhile, of all of my family members and close family that have died since I was a child, maybe near to 100 people, I am certain of only 3 that were saved and of the others maybe another 10 may have made it to Purgatory, maybe not. AND all were baptized Catholics who died from 1970 till present.

Stubborn · « **Reply #39 on:** September 27, 2019, 11:30:06 AM »

Quote from: Ladislaus on September 27, 2019, 11:09:29 AM

LOL. Maybe Confucius and Judas are playing checkers down there by themselves.

But the presumption is that all non-Catholics are not lost. So if someone asks me whether a certain EO was saved, I have to respond no. Now, could God have miraculously converted someone through some direct inspiration on their deathbed? Of course. But we have no way of knowing that, so we presume that they have been lost. To say anything else is to undermine EENS dogma.

Should be that the presumption is that all non-Catholics *are* lost - no?

Pax Vobis · « **Reply #40 on:** September 27, 2019, 11:31:20 AM »

Great quotes, LastTrad. Especially the quotes about Catholics being lukewarm and not aspiring to sainthood...certainly applies to me.
.
As Fr Wathen put it: Most go to hell not because they aren’t good people, but because they aren’t good enough.

Stubborn · « **Reply #41 on:** September 27, 2019, 11:33:37 AM »

Quote from: ByzCat3000 on September 27, 2019, 11:25:01 AM

It seems most likely to me that most Catholics will be damned, so your broad brushes don’t apply to me

St. John Marie Vianney said that the number of those saved was as few as the grapes left on the vine after the pickers had finished their work.

That's a pretty broad brush I'd say.

Last Tradhican · « **Reply #42 on:** September 27, 2019, 11:36:22 AM »

Quote from: ByzCat3000 on September 27, 2019, 11:25:01 AM

It seems most likely to me that most Catholics will be damned, so your broad brushes don’t apply to me

It does apply to you, because deep down you believe that the non-Catholics who behaved better than the "bad" Catholics are saved.
Besides, you stated that you only believe that Judas is in Hell, so you can't say that "It seems most likely to me that most Catholics will be damned".

As long as one is living, they can convert and be saved. When we talk of damnation, we talk about those who already are dead.

ByzCat3000 · « **Reply #43 on:** September 27, 2019, 11:56:50 AM »

Quote from: Last Tradhican on September 27, 2019, 11:36:22 AM

It does apply to you, because deep down you believe that the non-Catholics who behaved better than the "bad" Catholics are saved.
Besides, you stated that you only believe that Judas is in Hell, so you can't say that "It seems most likely to me that most Catholics will be damned".

As long as one is living, they can convert and be saved. When we talk of damnation, we talk about those who already are dead.

No you misunderstood me. I think it’s a point of revelation that Judas is damned so I disagree with those who say that he could have been saved (like JPII.). There are many, many others who seem much more likely to have been damned than not, but I can’t know for SURE that any PARTICULAR one is damned. Even hitler, while it seems almost impossible, could’ve repented at the very last second. I don’t know with ABSOLUTE certainty that he did not. As far as the various baptized Christians who are not visibly Catholic goes, I think some of them have mitigating enough factors that they aren’t mortally culpable for this, I agree with the Baltimore catechism and the accompanying explanations of it on this, but that doesn’t mean I think such people are LIKELY to be saved. I think those who are visibly Protestant are less likely to be saved cause they’d have to have perfect contrition, which is hard to do.

ByzCat3000 · « **Reply #44 on:** September 27, 2019, 11:58:04 AM »

Also, I don’t think it’s possible that Judas is the ONLY individual who is damned. Scripture is clear there will be many.

I’m just saying Judas is the only PARTICULAR individual of who’s damnation we can be certain

Author Topic: DEBATE on whether protestants and orthodox are within the Church (Read 4480 times)

Stubborn

Re: DEBATE on whether protestants and orthodox are within the Church

Pax Vobis

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ByzCat3000

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Ladislaus

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Last Tradhican

Re: DEBATE on whether protestants and orthodox are within the Church

Ladislaus

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Last Tradhican

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ByzCat3000

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Last Tradhican

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Stubborn

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Pax Vobis

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Stubborn

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Last Tradhican

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ByzCat3000

Re: DEBATE on whether protestants and orthodox are within the Church

ByzCat3000

Re: DEBATE on whether protestants and orthodox are within the Church