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Author Topic: DEBATE on whether protestants and orthodox are within the Church  (Read 12409 times)

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Offline Sebastian2019

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Re: DEBATE on whether protestants and orthodox are within the Church
« Reply #105 on: October 02, 2019, 12:16:03 PM »
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    • I am reading this debate with great interest. I read something recently from Bishop Schneider’s statement on the Amazon Synod which caught my attention.  He pointed out that married clergy became accepted in the Greek Church in the 7th Century.  I immediately realized this was during the time when the Church was united.  Also, divorce and remarriage also existed in the East during the time the Church was united.  

    How does this factor into this debate as it appears that the Popes didn’t break Communion with the East over these huge issues.   Also, what about these same issues much later at the Council of Florence? 

    Thank you,
    Sebastian
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    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: DEBATE on whether protestants and orthodox are within the Church
    « Reply #106 on: October 02, 2019, 12:43:53 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on September 29, 2019, 10:58:59 AM
    Look, this is NOT an interpretation.  If by chance you come to the conclusion that some people who appear to be outside the Church are in fact Catholic, then go for it.  But, other than that, it's just clearly heretical to say that anyone other than Catholics can be saved.  Period.  If anyone is saved, then it is only because they're a Catholic ... somehow.
    I knew what pax meant, or at least, I think I did, and I was replying based on that 
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    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: DEBATE on whether protestants and orthodox are within the Church
    « Reply #107 on: October 02, 2019, 12:45:00 PM »
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    • Quote from: forlorn on September 29, 2019, 10:00:38 AM
    The dogma itself is written very simply. Outside the Church there is no salvation. Plain simple English.

    Rationally, I have the same issue as Byzcat where a pagan Chinaman dying a month before the New Covenant having a chance at salvation but one a month after having no chance at it seems nonsensical.

    Normally, dogma takes clear precedent there and I submit reason to dogma. But then you have saints and popes saying that the invincibly ignorant CAN be saved after all. And nowadays even the vast majority of Trad Catholic clergy teach that(indeed many teach that even vincibly ignorant infidels can be saved, which is just beyond ridiculous in the face of EENS so I won't even go there). So whether it is true or not, it seems permissable to believe the possibility that they can be saved. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't spread the faith to them, as even if salvation were possible for the invincibly ignorant it would still be a 22k feet fall scenario.

    The issue of baptised non-Catholics is a tougher one. Potentially they could be saved if they were somehow forgiven their sins, but both perfect contrition and Confession require you to be within the Church. But I do wonder what exactly qualifies as that. For example, supposing I'm a Catholic in Greece in 1053. 1054 rolls around and the pope and my patriarch excommunicate each other(an event which would later be known as the start of the Great Schism). But I'm some peasant so I don't hear about this and even if I do I probably have no idea what that means. I keep going to my local (eastern rite, i.e newly Orthodox) church. I die. Am I damned for schism?
    Good points.  To be clear I agree with all this.  I, too, criticize the notion of presuming on that type of grace
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    Offline forlorn

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    Re: DEBATE on whether protestants and orthodox are within the Church
    « Reply #108 on: October 02, 2019, 01:27:48 PM »
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    • Quote from: Sebastian2019 on October 02, 2019, 12:16:03 PM
    I am reading this debate with great interest. I read something recently from Bishop Schneider’s statement on the Amazon Synod which caught my attention.  He pointed out that married clergy became accepted in the Greek Church in the 7th Century.  I immediately realized this was during the time when the Church was united.  Also, divorce and remarriage also existed in the East during the time the Church was united.  

    How does this factor into this debate as it appears that the Popes didn’t break Communion with the East over these huge issues.   Also, what about these same issues much later at the Council of Florence?

    Thank you,
    Sebastian
    Celibacy is a discipline, not divine law. The pope could theoretically get rid of it tomorrow morning. Some Catholic rites allow married clergy, and there are some cases of convert clergymen to the Latin rite who remain married.
    As for divorce, the dogmata on marriage weren't well defined until the second millennium really. That doesn't mean that there were no teachings on it or that divorce was fair game, but the indissolubility of marriage wasn't infallibly defined before the Schism.
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    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: DEBATE on whether protestants and orthodox are within the Church
    « Reply #109 on: October 02, 2019, 02:30:40 PM »
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    • Quote from: forlorn on September 29, 2019, 10:00:38 AM
    .. supposing I'm a Catholic in Greece in 1053. 1054 rolls around and the pope and my patriarch excommunicate each other(an event which would later be known as the start of the Great Schism). But I'm some peasant so I don't hear about this and even if I do I probably have no idea what that means. I keep going to my local (eastern rite, i.e newly Orthodox) church. I die. Am I damned for schism?
    I hope you don't sit up nights thinking about what happened to a peasant in 1054 or what happened to the first unbaptized person that died one second after the new covenant. How about the person that rejected the Immaculate Conception and died 5 minutes after it was declared a dogma? 

    I think its time to go pick a few acres of corn.

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    Offline forlorn

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    Re: DEBATE on whether protestants and orthodox are within the Church
    « Reply #110 on: October 02, 2019, 02:47:27 PM »
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    • Quote from: Last Tradhican on October 02, 2019, 02:30:40 PM
    I hope you don't sit up nights thinking about what happened to a peasant in 1054 or what happened to the first unbaptized person that died one second after the new covenant. How about the person that rejected the Immaculate Conception and died 5 minutes after it was declared a dogma?

    I think its time to go pick a few acres of corn.
    Well that first unbaptised guy who died off in who-knows-where a second after the New Covenant, as irrelevant and insignificant as he may seem, is still a soul like any other. The question is how do you reconcile God's justice with the fact that he had no way of achieving salvation but a guy who died 2 seconds before him had? It seems arbitrary, and God is not arbitrary. 
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    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: DEBATE on whether protestants and orthodox are within the Church
    « Reply #111 on: October 02, 2019, 04:08:15 PM »
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    • Quote from: forlorn on October 02, 2019, 02:47:27 PM
    Well that first unbaptised guy who died off in who-knows-where a second after the New Covenant, as irrelevant and insignificant as he may seem, is still a soul like any other. The question is how do you reconcile God's justice with the fact that he had no way of achieving salvation but a guy who died 2 seconds before him had? It seems arbitrary, and God is not arbitrary.
    That's nick picking.

    It's only a fact to those that think that anyone achieves salvation by doing something. Had the man lived another 1000 years he still would have been lost. God in His Mercy put him in the best time and place to have the least punishment in Hell, if he indeed he was lost for being 2 seconds late. When we get to heaven we will realize that all we did was to maybe lean 1/1,000,000 of 1% toward God and He did the rest.  No one is born in the wrong time and place or dies by accident.

    • St. Augustine:

    “If you wish to be a Catholic, do not venture to believe, to say, or to teach that ‘they whom the Lord has predestinated for baptism can be snatched away from his predestination, or die before that has been accomplished in them which the Almighty has predestined.’ There is in such a dogma more power than I can tell assigned to chances in opposition to the power of God, by the occurrence of which casualties that which He has predestinated is not permitted to come to pass. It is hardly necessary to spend time or earnest words in cautioning the man who takes up with this error against the absolute vortex of confusion into which it will absorb him, when I shall sufficiently meet the case if I briefly warn the prudent man who is ready to receive correction against the threatening mischief.” (On the Soul and Its Origin 3, 13)


    Before all decision to create the world, the infinite knowledge of God presents to Him all the graces, and different series of graces, which He can prepare for each soul, along with the consent or refusal which would follow in each circuмstance, and that in millions of possible combinations ... Thus, for each man in particular there are in the thought of God, limitless possible histories, some histories of virtue and salvation, others of crime and damnation; and God will be free in choosing such a world, such a series of graces, and in determining the future history and final destiny of each soul. And this is precisely what He does when among all possible worlds, by an absolutely free act, he decides to realize the actual world with all the circuмstances of its historic evolutions, with all the graces which in fact have been and will be distributed until the end of the world, and consequently with all the elect and all the reprobate who God foresaw would be in it if de facto He created it." [The Catholic Encyclopedia Appleton, 1909, on Augustine, pg 97]


    In other words before a man is conceived, God in his infinite knowledge has already put that person through the test with millions of possible combinations and possible histories, some histories of virtue and salvation, others of crime and damnation; along with the consent or refusal which would follow in each circuмstance (of millions of possible combinations!!!) and God will be free in determining which future history and final destiny He assigns each soul.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: DEBATE on whether protestants and orthodox are within the Church
    « Reply #112 on: October 02, 2019, 04:22:00 PM »
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    The question is how do you reconcile God's justice with the fact that he had no way of achieving salvation
    We don't know that this imaginary person didn't have the gospel preached to them by a bilocated Apostle/disciple, or had a spiritual dream, or had an visit from an angel.  To assume that God damned one to hell without them being given a chance at heaven, is blasphemy, pure and simple.  Just because we don't have a HISTORICAL record of God's MIRACULOUS workings in every soul, doesn't mean that they don't happen.
    .
    I have a friend who converted to Tradition and he told me that his conversion started with a dream where he was walking with Christ and he saw many beauties of heaven.  He realized that he could not take part in this happiness because of his sinful life.  He responded to grace and found the true Faith, even though he had grown up with the novus ordo almost his whole life.  If he hadn't told me that, NO ONE would ever know the MIRACLE that God worked for him.  How many other MIRACLES does God work in all of our lives, and in EVERY single human being ever created?  The number does not exist to count such blessings.
    .
    Notice:  In this example, God first called the sinner away from sin.  Then, when they respond to this call, then God gives them more graces related specifically to religion.  In the same way, all of us argue about this or that pagan or isolated soul who "never had the faith preached to them".  But we know INFALLIBLY that ALL men have the natural law written on their hearts.  And God INEXAUSTIBLY calls us to follow the natural law, every moment of our lives, and He provides us with uncountable actual graces to achieve natural perfection.  Those that do not respond to the call to avoid sin and repent, surely will not respond to a call to join a religion or convert to one.  This is what is meant by "grace builds upon nature."  Those that never have the Faith preached to them, are often steeped in sin and have no intention of amending their lives.  Scripture tells us that God does not "cast pearls before swine" which means that those who refuse calls of repentance, have damned themselves based on the natural law.  So God does not waste the grace of Faith on them.
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    Offline Thed0ctor

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    Re: DEBATE on whether protestants and orthodox are within the Church
    « Reply #113 on: October 05, 2019, 03:34:30 PM »
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    • First off, I would like to thank all those participating in this debate and sharing their insights and sources. I have also been following and it is very thought provoking! I do have a question though. Theoretically is the "visibly" Eastern Orthodox person who believes all things Catholic who dies in such a state damned? Or would this type of situation never occur? 
    Another question I have is: when is one visibly "in" the Church? Is it just being baptized and externally professing Catholic doctrines or is there more to it? Do you have to be connected to a diocese, bishop etc? What if you are baptized, profess Catholic doctrines but separate from your bishop or the pope due to heresy, scandal etc? Some would say the latter examples would separate you from the visible institution, is that the case?
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    Offline trad123

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    Re: DEBATE on whether protestants and orthodox are within the Church
    « Reply #114 on: October 05, 2019, 08:18:21 PM »
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    • Quote from: Thed0ctor on October 05, 2019, 03:34:30 PM
    Theoretically is the "visibly" Eastern Orthodox person who believes all things Catholic who dies in such a state damned?

    All things Catholic?

    Papal Primacy, Filioque. . .
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    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline Nadir

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    Re: DEBATE on whether protestants and orthodox are within the Church
    « Reply #115 on: October 05, 2019, 10:55:42 PM »
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    • Quote from: Thed0ctor on October 05, 2019, 03:34:30 PM
    Theoretically is the "visibly" Eastern Orthodox person who believes all things Catholic who dies in such a state damned? Or would this type of situation never occur?

    A person who accepts all the teachings of the Catholic Church is not "Orthodox" but orthodox. He is ready to be received into the One true Church and reject Eastern Orthodoxy. 

    The Eastern Orthodox do not recognize papal authority having no central authority. They disagree on Papal primacy, The Filioque, the indissolubility of marriage, Purgatory, the Immaculate Conception, and other disagreements.
    See What exactly divides Catholics and Orthodox?
    https://cruxnow.com/global-church/2016/07/01/exactly-divides-catholics-orthodox/


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    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
    Let it be what God has planned, His new Eden where You reign.

    +RIP 2024

    Offline Thed0ctor

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    Re: DEBATE on whether protestants and orthodox are within the Church
    « Reply #116 on: October 05, 2019, 11:53:11 PM »
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    • What I’m saying is that until this EO is received into the Church he still appears as EO to those who don’t know him. Does merely professing the faith and rejecting his EO error suffice to make him visibly a member or is there more to it than that? 
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    Offline Nadir

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    Re: DEBATE on whether protestants and orthodox are within the Church
    « Reply #117 on: October 06, 2019, 04:57:58 AM »
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    • Provided that this person has been validly baptised, then he needs to approach the priest and request to be received into the Catholic Church. This would require a public profession of the Catholic faith and a rejection of false teachings to which he had formerly clung. 
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    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
    Let it be what God has planned, His new Eden where You reign.

    +RIP 2024

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: DEBATE on whether protestants and orthodox are within the Church
    « Reply #118 on: October 06, 2019, 09:52:09 AM »
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    • Quote from: Thed0ctor on October 05, 2019, 11:53:11 PM
    What I’m saying is that until this EO is received into the Church he still appears as EO to those who don’t know him. Does merely professing the faith and rejecting his EO error suffice to make him visibly a member or is there more to it than that?
    Visible means everybody sees it and knows it. Therefore, the person would have to do as Nadir wrote for him to be visible a Catholic.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: DEBATE on whether protestants and orthodox are within the Church
    « Reply #119 on: October 06, 2019, 10:06:25 AM »
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    • With regard to the Chinaman who died 10 minutes after Baptism was instituted, firstly, some of the Fathers say that Baptism did not become obligatory for everyone until the Gospel had been preached throughout the world.  Regardless, you forgot a very simple principle, that of God's PROVIDENCE.  This man was not born into his condition by accident.  Even today, I could have been born in the jungle amid a tribe of animists also, but for some reason, while God chose to put other souls there, he put me in a Catholic family.  God has a reason for everything.  If that soul was born a Chinaman right after the time of Our Lord, then God HAD A REASON for it.  We don't know what it was.  But things like that simply do not happen by accident.  Perhaps he was born there because, had he known the Gospel and rejected it, he would have suffered a worse eternal fate, and the fact that he was born when and where he was, that was a mercy of God.  If I die of a heart attack five minutes before I am scheduled to receive the Sacrament of Baptism, there was a REASON for that.

    Most BoDers keep saying that God is not constrained by His Sacraments, and yet at the same time decide that God is constrained by circuмstances and accidents and impossibilities.  That argument is utter nonsense.  St. Augustine realized this and then backtracked from his initial support of BoD, referring this thinking as resulting in a "vortex of confusion".

    St. Augustine:
    Quote
    If you wish to be a Catholic, do not venture to believe, to say, or to teach that 'they whom the Lord has predestinated for baptism can be snatched away from his predestination, or die before that has been accomplished in them which the Almighty has predestined.' There is in such a dogma more power than I can tell assigned to chances in opposition to the power of God, by the occurrence of which casualties that which He has predestinated is not permitted to come to pass. It is hardly necessary to spend time or earnest words in cautioning the man who takes up with this error against the absolute vortex of confusion into which it will absorb him, when I shall sufficiently meet the case if I briefly warn the prudent man who is ready to receive correction against the threatening mischief.

    He is saying that if you think this way, you are not a Catholic.  How many BoDers fit this description?  And yet they pretend that St. Augustine is in "their corner" on the BoD issue.  Nothing could be farther from the truth.

    He came to this realization after battling the Pelagians and Donatists, and some of the strongest statements in existence AGAINST Baptism of Desire come from St. Augustine ... which even Karl Rahner realized.
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