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Author Topic: Debate: Jeff Cassman vs. Br. Peter Dimond - Are JXXIII thru Francis true Popes?  (Read 4258 times)

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Offline DigitalLogos

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  • I must say I felt like putting my finger down the back of my throat with Cassman's final statement, which was sanctimonious nonsense, claiming that we must stay in the NO because we must fight the battle and not bail out like cowards, etc.  This has nothing to do with this whatsoever.  We're bailing out because it's NOT THE CATHOLIC CHURCH, and not due to fleeing from cowardice and refusing to suffer with the Church.  That was utterly obnoxious.  From Revelation/Apocalypse 18:4 "Go out from her, my people; that you be not partakers of her sins, and that you receive not of her plagues."
    I remember vocalizing my discontent with that trash when I was watching it. How is it that any of us are running from the fight? For example, Bro. Peter most certainly doesn't run from the fight given that he constantly debates people online or responds to them.
    "For there shall be a time, when they will not endure sound doctrine; but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears:" [2 Tim. 4:3]

    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "For the letter killeth, but the spirit quickeneth." [2 Cor. 3:6]

    Offline DigitalLogos

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  • Overall, I've noticed with the Dimond Brothers that their latest videos have had a much gentler tone to them.  So when they criticized Taylor Marshall (and they were right about their points), they didn't denounce him as a heretic, much less a "bad willed" heretic, but said that he was mistaken.  That was refreshing to see.

    Even in this debate with Cassman, he walked back a reference to something as being heretical to call it an "error" ... so perhaps something getting across about the theological notes.
    I mean, how are they going to bring people to the Faith by doing that? Yes, they have those they've successfully converted, but those of us who are already practicing Catholicism hesitate given their denunciation of everyone as a heretic (no matter how true). While I agree with their points on the EENS dogma and the Pope, I've certainly voiced my issues with their "tone" and lack of distinctions.
    "For there shall be a time, when they will not endure sound doctrine; but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears:" [2 Tim. 4:3]

    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "For the letter killeth, but the spirit quickeneth." [2 Cor. 3:6]


    Offline 2Vermont

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  • Cassman actually came of as more of a meanie than Bro. Dimond. 
    :laugh1: Crazy, right?
    "For there is not any thing secret that shall not be made manifest, nor hidden, that shall not be known and come abroad."- Luke 8:17

    Offline confederate catholic

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  • A reply to an earlier comment about being Benedictine.
    There's a vast difference between being a member of a community with an actual professed monk from an actual canonical monastery where he was formed who left because of the changes and he guides you through the way of life, having a bishop take your vows publicly.
    And having a postulant without vows and no formation trying to form you. 
    Big difference between all traditional religious orders ( the former ) and the latter ( Diamonds). They were even offered to be formed by benedictines and sent back to their monastery after vows. They refused. 
    قامت مريم، ترتيل وفاء جحا و سلام جحا

    Offline DigitalLogos

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  • A reply to an earlier comment about being Benedictine.
    There's a vast difference between being a member of a community with an actual professed monk from an actual canonical monastery where he was formed who left because of the changes and he guides you through the way of life, having a bishop take your vows publicly.
    And having a postulant without vows and no formation trying to form you.
    Big difference between all traditional religious orders ( the former ) and the latter ( Diamonds). They were even offered to be formed by benedictines and sent back to their monastery after vows. They refused.
    Good point. I heard from a talk by Richard Ibranyi (kind of a crazy guy) where he claimed that Bro. Peter didn't meet the proper requirements to become a Superior. But he also made a bunch of other unsubstantiated, subjective claims about Bros. Peter and Michael as well.

    That's interesting to know though, do you have a source for the last point? It still doesn't change the fact that he and his apostolate does great work to defend Catholic doctrine.
    "For there shall be a time, when they will not endure sound doctrine; but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears:" [2 Tim. 4:3]

    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "For the letter killeth, but the spirit quickeneth." [2 Cor. 3:6]


    Offline confederate catholic

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  • Yes my monastic superior was the one who buried their superior and made the offer
    قامت مريم، ترتيل وفاء جحا و سلام جحا

    Online Ladislaus

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  • That's interesting to know though, do you have a source for the last point? It still doesn't change the fact that he and his apostolate does great work to defend Catholic doctrine.

    It's garbage ... one of many slanders out there about the Brothers.  They're as legit as any Trad religious.

    MHFM was founded byBrother Joseph Natale, a legitimate Benedictine who actually left the largest Benedictine monastery in the US with the permission of his Archabbot to start his own Benedictine community.  He did so, founding a Traditional Benedictine monastery.  Brother Michael joined MHFM in 1992, and then Brother Natale died in 1995, at which time Brother Michael became the superior.  So he was there for three years being formed by Brother Joseph before the latter died.

    https://vaticancatholic.com/benedictine-community/
    Quote
    The Founder of our Benedictine community:
    Brother Joseph Natale O.S.B.
    Brother Joseph Natale was trained at St. Vincent’s benedictine Arch-abbey in Latrobe, PA. St. Vincent’s Arch-abbey was the largest Benedictine monastery in the United States. In the 1960’s, Bro. Joseph left with the permission of the then Archabbot Dennis Strittmatter to start his own Benedictine community. Shortly after leaving St. Vincent’s, Bro. Joseph started his Benedictine community in southern New Jersey. Bro. Joseph never allowed the New Mass to be celebrated at his monastery, only allowing the traditional Roman Rite Mass. Bro. Joseph printed, distributed and sold numerous books, pamphlets and audio tapes defending the Catholic faith and educating Catholics about the true teachings of Catholicism. In 1994, the community was given a piece of land in rural New York. Bro. Joseph wrote and stated on many occasions that he would be moving the community to New York. But Bro. Joseph was not able to complete this desire, due to the fact that he died on November 11, 1995. After Bro. Joseph died, Bro. Michael Dimond, O.S.B. was elected superior of the community. Bro. Michael immediately went to work to fulfill Bro. Joseph’s wish to move the community to New York. In late 1997, Most Holy Family Monastery finally finished moving the community and its belongings to New York.
    Bro. Michael Dimond O.S.B.
    Raised in a family with no religion, Bro. Michael Dimond converted to Catholicism at the age of 15. Brother Michael Dimond entered Most Holy Family Monastery in 1992 at the age of 19, a short time after graduating from high school. Brother Michael Dimond’s father graduated from Princeton University in New Jersey and his mother graduated from Stanford University in California. Brother Michael Dimond was elected superior of Most Holy Family Monastery in late 1995. Bro. Dimond took his final vows before a validly ordained priest.

    John Vennari was also at MHFM until 1994.

    Offline jdfaber

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  • According to Michael Cuneo (p. 88), who cites the archivist at St Vincent's, Br Joseph Natale was only a postulant (briefly) and never took final vows. You can watch an interview of Br Joseph . Please note that they sing Roman Compline (as opposed to the monastic form) in English.


    Offline DigitalLogos

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  • According to Michael Cuneo (p. 88), who cites the archivist at St Vincent's, Br Joseph Natale was only a postulant (briefly) and never took final vows. You can watch an interview of Br Joseph . Please note that they sing Roman Compline (as opposed to the monastic form) in English.
    Welcome new member, how about you introduce yourself in the Introductions thread?
    "For there shall be a time, when they will not endure sound doctrine; but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears:" [2 Tim. 4:3]

    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "For the letter killeth, but the spirit quickeneth." [2 Cor. 3:6]

    Offline confederate catholic

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  • He was a postulant and not even a novice. The whole point of the offer was to give them a monastic formation, this offer was made to the entire community by the Benedictine priest who did the funeral. There was no brother anything as none took vows, all were some varied form of postulant/novice.

     So postulants voted another postulant as superior? They did this after being given a chance at formation and then gave themselves vows? 
    There's more but that should suffice.
    They're not benedictines. They may have non Benedictine vows though 
    قامت مريم، ترتيل وفاء جحا و سلام جحا

    Offline 2Vermont

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  • Brother Dimond wins a debate in favor of sedevacantism and watch the anti-Dimond posts multiply! 
    "For there is not any thing secret that shall not be made manifest, nor hidden, that shall not be known and come abroad."- Luke 8:17


    Offline DigitalLogos

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  • Brother Dimond wins a debate in favor of sedevacantism and watch the anti-Dimond posts multiply!
    Every time

    "Blessed are ye when they shall revile you, and persecute you, and speak all that is evil against you, untruly, for my sake:"
    [Matthew 5:11]
    "For there shall be a time, when they will not endure sound doctrine; but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears:" [2 Tim. 4:3]

    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "For the letter killeth, but the spirit quickeneth." [2 Cor. 3:6]

    Offline Clemens Maria

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  • He was a postulant and not even a novice. The whole point of the offer was to give them a monastic formation, this offer was made to the entire community by the Benedictine priest who did the funeral. There was no brother anything as none took vows, all were some varied form of postulant/novice.

     So postulants voted another postulant as superior? They did this after being given a chance at formation and then gave themselves vows?
    There's more but that should suffice.
    They're not benedictines. They may have non Benedictine vows though

    Are the men at St. Vincent's Archabbey in Latrobe, Pa true Benedictines?  Are the men at Our Lady of Guadalupe Monastery in Silver City, New Mexico true Benedictines?  How do you define true Benedictines?  I ask because I have a friend who was friends with the superior of the monastery in Latrobe.  According to my friend, the superior was a ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ.  Rembert Weakland was also a member of the Novus Ordo "OSB".  He was not only a ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ but a notorious sɛҳuąƖ predator who paid his victims off with money collected from unsuspecting donors.  Is Rembert Weakland a true Benedictine?  Does it matter to you if they are notorious manifest heretics whose orders are suspect?  As for the Silver City Monastery, they didn't get canonical recognition from the Novus Ordo either.  So are they true Benedictines?  Would you rather get your formation from an effeminate ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ who doesn't believe nor practice the Catholic faith or would you rather be formed by someone who actually possesses the Catholic faith and who is serious about following the Rule of St Benedict?

    I'm talking about the superior of Latrobe many years ago.  I don't know anything about who is the superior now.  And I don't know anything about previous superiors either.  The point is that it is not safe to be formed by ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖs nor by anyone who doesn't believe or practice the Catholic faith.

    Online Ladislaus

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  • He was a postulant and not even a novice. The whole point of the offer was to give them a monastic formation, this offer was made to the entire community by the Benedictine priest who did the funeral. There was no brother anything as none took vows, all were some varied form of postulant/novice.

     So postulants voted another postulant as superior? They did this after being given a chance at formation and then gave themselves vows?
    There's more but that should suffice.
    They're not benedictines. They may have non Benedictine vows though

    They're more Benedictine than the Novus Ordo clowns who claim to be Benedictines, and as much a religious as any other Traditional religious.  No truly Catholic religious have any formal canonical recognition at this time in the Church.  And I imagine this priest's offer of a "Benedictine formation" was refused due to the priest's orthodoxy being suspect.

    And in one hit piece against the Dimond Brothers, this was cited:
    Quote
    In 2015, Abbot Primate Notker Wolf OSB of the Benedictine Confederation of Congregations, in Rome, stated that the Confederation cannot forbid anyone from calling themselves Benedictine, even if they are not a member of the Confederation of Congregations, just so long as the person claims to be adhering to the Rule of St. Benedict.

    And the Dimond Brothers make ample citations along these lines on their website.
    Quote
    The following information is taken from the articles on “St. Benedict” and “Benedictine” in the 1907 Catholic Encyclopedia:

    A Benedictine community is a community that lives under the Rule of St. Benedict. In the Benedictine order there is no general or common superior over the whole order other than the pope, and the order consists, so to speak, of what are practically a number of orders, called “congregations”, each of which is self-governing; all are united, not under the obedience to one general superior, but only by the spiritual bond of allegiance to the same Rule, which may be modified according to the circuмstances of each particular house or congregation.

    Offline mcollier

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  • You claim that there are "important differeces" between sedeimpoundism/Chazalism and sedeprivationism.  Since it's so obvious to you, please do explain.  I have not yet seen a single convincing distinction between the two that would dissuade me from my contention that the two are identical.  More than anything it's a matter of emphasis.  Some of the leading proponents of sedeprivationism today are also some of the most dogmatic formerly-sedevacantist, and so their emphasis is on the formal vacancy, the lack of authority ... to the point that it may sound like sedevacatism, where with Father Chazal, his emphasis is on the material possession of the office.  So when they speak, they might SOUND like dogmatic SV vs. R&R, but in theory, the positions amount to the same thing:  possession of the office but with lack of any actual authority.
    I agree with you 100% but we need to get rid of any confusion that might lead one to think SV vs R&R (at least the type of R&R that states that the Church can lead souls to hell with false teachings and a defective rite of the Mass like I hear on the neoSSPX podcast). If sedeprivationism is NOT sedevacantism then proponents of sedeprivationism should recognize that we do have a pope and stop calling themselves sedevacantists. Likewise, resistance minded Catholics should defend the indefectibility of the Church. The majority view of theologians give faithful Catholics enough ammo to do this without inventing or branding new theories. Yes we still need the Church to come down on precisely which view is the correct one (Cajetan, John of St. Thomas, Bellarmine, Billuart, etc.), but there is alot more similarities between the views than differences. None of them are sedevacantist though. Sedevacantism is a heresy and will be recognized as a heresy by the Church in due time. All faithful Catholics should reject it. (I am not saying I have the authority to condemn any Catholic that holds the sedevacantist position). There are other important differences between Fr. Chazal's position (which I think is a faithful Catholic position) and the positions taken by sedeprivationsit groups (which can lead to various other errors/danagers) but I will start a new thread to go into what they are.