Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: Debate about Vatican II: Fr. Gleize responds to Msgr. Ocariz  (Read 946 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline stevusmagnus

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 3728
  • Reputation: +825/-1
  • Gender: Male
    • h
Debate about Vatican II: Fr. Gleize responds to Msgr. Ocariz
« on: December 29, 2011, 10:45:34 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • http://www.dici.org/en/docuмents/debate-about-vatican-ii-fr-gleize-responds-to-msgr-ocariz/

    Debate about Vatican II: Fr. Gleize responds to Msgr. Ocariz

    23-12-2011  


    In the current issue of Courrier de Rome (no. 350, December 2011), Fr. Jean-Michel Gleize, professor of theology in Ecône, responds to the article by Msgr. Fernando Ocariz that appeared in L’Osservatore Romano on December 2, 2011 (see DICI no. 246 dated December 9, 2011).  Both men participated in the doctrinal discussions on Vatican II in Rome from October 2009 to April 2011.  With the kind permission of Courrier de Rome, DICI is happy to be able to present to its readers significant excerpts from this remarkable study entitled “A Crucial Question”.

    (…)  No doubt we could congratulate ourselves that we are finally seeing a theologian of the Holy See introduce all these nuances and thus deny quite formally, albeit implicitly, all the unilateral presentations which until now have presented the Second Vatican Council in a maximalist perspective, as an absolutely untouchable dogma that is “even more important than that of Nicaea”.  However, as seductive as it may be in the nuances and distinctions that it offers, such an analysis radically conveys a postulate that is far from being self-evident.  Msgr. Ocariz’ study thus avoids responding to the crucial question, which is still pending between the Society of Saint Pius X and the Holy See.  More precisely, the answer to this question seems to go without saying in the view of the Opus Dei prelate, so much so that everything happens as though it had never been necessary to address it.  Or as though the debate would never have to take place.

    Yet this debate is more imperative than ever.  It is in fact far from self-evident that the last Council could impose its authority, in all matters and for all purposes, in the eyes of Catholics as the exercise of a genuine Magisterium, demanding their adherence at the different levels that are noted.  Indeed, if we recall the traditional definition of Magisterium, we really are obliged to observe that the proceedings of Vatican II hardly conform to them.  Much less so, given that this wholesale novelty of the 21st Ecuмenical Council explains itself in depth in terms of absolutely unheard-of presuppositions. (…)

    The fact of Vatican II:  new teachings contrary to Tradition

    On at least four points, the teachings of the Second Vatican Council are obviously in logical contradiction to the pronouncements of the previous traditional Magisterium, so that it is impossible to interpret them in keeping with the other teachings already contained in the earlier docuмents of the Church’s Magisterium.  Vatican II has thus broken the unity of the Magisterium, to the same extent to which it has broken the unity of its object.

    These four points are as follows.  The doctrine on religious liberty, as it is expressed in no. 2 of the Declaration Dignitatis humanae, contradicts the teachings of Gregory XVI in Mirari vos and of Pius IX in Quanta cura as well as those of Pope Leo XIII in Immortale Dei and those of Pope Pius XI in Quas primas.  The doctrine on the Church, as it is expressed in no. 8 of the Constitution Lumen gentium, contradicts the teachings of Pope Pius XII in Mystici corporis and Humani generis.  The doctrine on ecuмenism, as it is expressed in no. 8 of Lumen gentium and no. 3 of the Decree Unitatis redintegratio, contradicts the teachings of Pope Pius IX in propositions 16 and 17 of the Syllabus, those of Leo XIII in Satis cognitum, and those of Pope Pius XI in Mortalium animos.  The doctrine on collegiality, as it is expressed in no. 22 of the Constitution Lumen gentium, including no. 3 of the Nota praevia [Explanatory Note], contradicts the teachings of the First Vatican Council on the uniqueness of the subject of supreme power in the Church, in the Constitution Pastor aeternus.  (…)

    A new set of problems

    In keeping with the [December] 2005 address [of Pope Benedict XVI to the Roman Curia], Msgr. Ocariz posits the principle of a “unitary interpretation”, according to which the docuмents of Vatican II and the preceding Magisterial docuмents ought to shed light on each other.  The interpretation of the novelties taught by the Second Vatican Council must therefore reject, as Benedict XVI says, “the hermeneutic of discontinuity” with relation to Tradition, whereas it must affirm “the hermeneutic of reform, of renewal in continuity.”  This is new vocabulary, which clearly expresses a new set of problems.  The latter inspires the whole observation by Msgr. Ocariz:  “One essential characteristic of the Magisterium,” he writes, “it its continuity and its homogeneity over time.”

    If we speak about “continuity” or “rupture”, this should be understood, in the traditional sense, to mean a continuity or rupture that is objective, in other words, related to the object of the Church’s preaching.  This is tantamount to speaking about the set of revealed truths, as the Magisterium of the Church preserves and presents them, giving them the same significance, without the possibility of a contradiction between present preaching and past preaching.  Rupture would consist of attacking the immutable character of objective Tradition and would then be a synonym for logical contradiction between two statements, the respective meanings of which cannot both be true at the same time.

    But it is necessary to admit the plain truth and to recognize that the word “continuity” does not have this traditional sense at all in the current discourse of ecclesiastics.  They speak precisely about continuity with regard to a subject that evolves over the course of time. It is not a question of the continuity of an object, of the dogma or the doctrine that the Church’s Magisterium proposes today, giving it the same meaning as before.  It is a question of the continuity of the unique subject “Church”.  Moreover Benedict XVI speaks not exactly about continuity but about “renewal in the continuity of the one subject-Church which the Lord has given to us. She is a subject which increases in time and develops, yet always remaining the same, the one subject of the journeying People of God.”  

    Conversely, he adds immediately afterward, “The hermeneutic of discontinuity risks ending in a split between the pre-conciliar Church and the post-conciliar Church.”  That means that the rupture must be situated on that same level:  it is a rupture between two subjects, meaning that the Church, the one subject [consisting] of the People of God, would no longer be the same before and after the Council.  (…)

    The knot of the dilemma

    In the logic of Vatican II and of the 2005 Address [to the Roman Curia], the object as such is relative to the subject.  In the logic of Vatican I, and of all the traditional teaching of the Church, the subject as such is relative to the object.  These two logics are irreconcilable.

    The Magisterium, in whatever era it may be, must remain the organ of the deposit of the faith.  It becomes perverted to the extent in which it alters that deposit.  It is false to say that divinely revealed principles that have been made explicit by the previous Magisterium are not necessarily binding, on the pretence that the subject-Church experiences them differently through the contingency of history, or that the People of God finds itself being led to establish a new relation between its faith and the modern world.  Some principles that are applied in contingent matters (for instance those that form the basis of the whole social doctrine of the Church) are not contingent.  No doubt, the substantial immutability of revealed truth is not absolute, because the conceptual and verbal expression of that truth can acquire greater precision.  But this progress does not involve any calling into question of the meaning of the truth, which only becomes more explicit in its formulation. The principles are still necessary principles, whatever the different concrete forms they may assume when they are applied.  This distinction between principles and concrete forms proves to be artificial with regard to the social doctrine of the Church;  when Benedict XVI resorts to it in his 2005 Address [to the Roman Curia] in order to legitimize the Declaration Dignitatis humanae, he does so in vain.

    To return to Vatican II:  the fundamental question is to determine the first principle that must serve as the ultimate rule for the activity of the Magisterium.  Is it the objective data of divine revelation, as it is expressed in its definitive substance through the teaching authority of Christ and the apostles, to which the ecclesiastical Magisterium is only the successor?  Is it the communitarian experience of the People of God, the trustee (and not just the recipient) of the gift of the Truth as the bearer of the meaning of the faith?  In the first case, the ecclesiastical Magisterium is the organ of Tradition, and it depends on the divine-apostolic teaching authority as its objective rule;  the question then is whether the objective teachings of the Second Vatican Council are those of a constant Magisterium and an immutable Tradition.  In the second case, the ecclesiastical Magisterium is the amalgamating spokesman of the communal awareness of the People of God, charged with establishing the spatial-temporal cohesion of the expression of the sensus fidei;  Vatican II is then for the subject-Church the means of expressing in conceptual language its sensus fidei, experienced and updated with respect to the contingencies of the modern era.

    Hermeneutic and reinterpretation

    In Msgr. Ocariz’ view, the teachings of Vatican II are novelties “in the sense that they make explicit some new aspects which were not yet formulated by the Magisterium but which, on the doctrinal level, do not contradict the preceding Magisterial docuмents”.  An accurate exegesis of the docuмents of the Council would therefore apparently presuppose the principle of non-contradiction.  But appearances are deceiving, since non-contradiction no longer has the same meaning at all as it did until now.

    The Magisterium of the Church has always understood this principle to mean an absence of logical contradiction between two objective statements.  Logical contradiction is an opposition that is found between two propositions, one of which affirms and the other denies the same thing predicated of the same subject.  The principle of non-contradiction demands that if this opposition occurs, the two propositions cannot be true at the same time.  This principle is a law of the intellect and only expresses the unity of its object.  Since faith defines itself as intellectual adherence to the truth proposed by God, it verifies this principle.  The objective unity of the faith also corresponds to an absence of contradiction in its dogmatic statements.

    The hermeneutic of Benedict XVI now understands this principle in a sense that is no longer objective but subjective, no longer intellectualistic but voluntaristic.  “The absence of contradiction” is a synonym for continuity at the level of the subject.  Contradiction is a synonym for rupture, at the same level.  The principle of continuity does not demand first and foremost the unity of the truth.  It demands first and foremost the unity of the subject that develops and grows over the course of time.  It is the unity of the People of God, as it lives in the present moment, in the world of this time, to quote the suggestive title of the Pastoral Constitution [on the Church in the Modern World], Gaudium et spes.  This unity is expressed solely through the authorized word of the present Magisterium, precisely insofar as it is present.  Msgr. Ocariz underscores this:  “An authentic interpretation of the conciliar docuмents can be made only by the Church’s Magisterium itself.  That is why the theological work of interpreting passages in the conciliar docuмents that raise questions or seem to present difficulties must above all take into account the meaning in which the successive interventions of the Magisterium have understood these passages.”  Let us make no mistake about it:  this Magisterium which must serve as a rule of interpretation is the new Magisterium of this time, the one that resulted from Vatican II.  It is not the Magisterium of all ages.  As it has been rightly remarked, Vatican II must be understood in the light of Vatican II, reinterpreting in its own logic of subjective, living continuity all the teachings of the constant Magisterium.

    Until now the Magisterium of the Church has never compromised itself by begging the question in this way.  It has always wanted to be faithful to its mission of preserving the deposit [of faith].  Its principal justification has always been to refer to the testimonies of the objective Tradition which is unanimous and constant.  Its expression has always been that of the unity of the truth.  (…)

    That is why nobody could be content today with the so-called “spaces for theological freedom” at the very heart of the contradiction introduced by Vatican II.  The profound desire of any Catholic who is faithful to his baptismal promises is to adhere with complete filial submission to the teachings of the perennial Magisterium.  The same piety demands also, with increasing urgency, a remedy for the serious deficiencies that have paralyzed the exercise of this Magisterium since the last Council.  To this end the Society of Saint Pius X still desires, now more than ever, an authentic reform, meaning that it is up to the Church to remain true to herself, to remain what she is in the unity of her faith, and thus to preserve her original form, in fidelity to the mission that she received from Christ.  Intus reformari. [To be reformed inwardly.]  (Source : Courrier de Rome – Emphasis in bold added by the editor.   – DICI no.247 dated December 23, 2011)


    Offline Nishant

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2126
    • Reputation: +0/-6
    • Gender: Male
    Debate about Vatican II: Fr. Gleize responds to Msgr. Ocariz
    « Reply #1 on: January 03, 2012, 09:18:10 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • The 1911 Catholic Encyclopedia, on Tradition and Living Magisterium, which I think may be in place here, excuse the length, says,

    Quote
    There is between written docuмents and the living magisterium of the Church a relation similar, proportionately speaking, to that already outlined between Scripture and the living magisterium.

    In them is found the traditional thought expressed according to varieties of environments and circuмstances, no longer in an inspired language, as is the case with Scripture, but in a purely human language, consequently subject to the imperfections and shortcomings of human thought. Nevertheless the more the docuмents are the exact expression of the living thought of the Church the more they thereby possess the value and authority which belong to that thought because they are so much the better expression of tradition.

    Often formulas of the past have themselves entered the traditional current and become the official formulas of the Church. Hence it will be understood that the living magisterium searches in the past, now for authorities in favour of its present thought in order to defend it against attacks or dangers of mutilation, now for light to walk the right road without straying. The thought of the Church is essentially a traditional thought and the living magisterium by taking cognizance of ancient formulas of this thought thereby recruits its strength and prepares to give to immutable truth a new expression which shall be in harmony with the circuмstances of the day and within reach of contemporary minds.

    Revealed truth has sometimes found definitive formulas from the earliest times; then the living magisterium has only had to preserve and explain them and put them in circulation. Sometimes attempts have been made to express this truth, without success. It even happens that, in attempting to express revealed truth in the terms of some philosophy or to fuse it with some current of human thought, it has been distorted so as to be scarcely recognizable, so closely mingled with error that it becomes difficult to separate them.

    When the Church studies the ancient monuments of her faith she casts over the past the reflection of her living and present thought and by some sympathy of the truth of today with that of yesterday she succeeds in recognizing through the obscurities and inaccuracies of ancient formulas the portions of traditional truth, even when they are mixed with error. The Church is also (as regards religious and moral doctrines) the best interpreter of truly traditional docuмents; she recognizes as by instinct what belongs to the current of her living thought and distinguishes it from the foreign elements which may have become mixed with it in the course of centuries.

    The living magisterium, therefore, makes extensive use of docuмents of the past, but it does so while judging and interpreting, gladly finding in them its present thought, but likewise, when needful, distinguishing its present thought from what is traditional only in appearance. It is revealed truth always living in the mind of the Church, or, if it is preferred, the present thought of the Church in continuity with her traditional thought, which is for it the final criterion, according to which the living magisterium adopts as true or rejects as false the often obscure and confused formulas which occur in the monuments of the past.

    Thus are explained both her respect for the writings of the Fathers of the Church and her supreme independence towards those writings--she judges them more than she is judged by them ... Not understanding what tradition is, the ever-living thought of the Church, [Harnack] believes that she abjured her past when she merely distinguished between what was traditional truth in the past and what was only human alloy mixed with that truth, the personal opinion of an author substituting itself for the general thought of the Christian community.

    With regard to official docuмents, the expression of the infallible magisterium of the Church embodied in the decision of councils, or the solemn judgments of the popes, the Church never gainsays what she has once decided. She is then linked with her past because in this past her entire self is concerned and not any fallible organ of her thought. Hence she still finds her doctrine and rule of faith in these venerable monuments; the formulas may have grown old, but the truth which they express is always her present thought.


    And, on Infallibility in general,

    Quote
    It is, therefore, a mere waste of time for opponents of infallibility to try to create a prejudice against the Catholic claim by pointing out the moral or intellectual shortcomings of popes or councils that have pronounced definitive doctrinal decisions, or to try to show historically that such decisions in certain cases were the seemingly natural and inevitable outcome of existing conditions, moral, intellectual, and political. All that history may be fairly claimed as witnessing to under either of these heads may freely be granted without the substance of the Catholic claim being affected.


    Fr.Gleize has presented his critique in a very impressive and scholarly way. Yet, I would say that on this crucial point, the relation between Tradition and the Magisterium, for the reasons mentioned in the Encyclopedia article, he is incorrect. The continuity between the Church founded 2000 years ago and the Church today is as sure and as identical as that between a tree and a seed, according to our Lord's own parable. The seed never becomes anything essentially different from what it once was, it merely grows and flourishes in time, and that, according to Vatican I, only in its own proper kind.

    I maintain that the Second Vatican Council changed nothing of the traditional doctrines of the Catholic Church, however impossible that sounds to some. That also means that if persons are unsure how the matter is to be reconciled, they are absolutely safe in holding to Tradition themselves, and awaiting a clarification from the Church.

    I think even now the four principal points Fr.Gleize mentions can be shown to not be contradictory, but complementary, to the former Magisterial teaching, to anyone's theological satisfaction, but not without some effort.

    For example, taking the issue of religious liberty, cited above and so often mentioned as irreconciliable, and which I wrote a bit about on a past thread, Ci Riesce, a Papal address by Pope Pius XII to Italian Catholic jurists is helpful in understanding Dignitatis Humanae.

    Quote
    "Could it be that in certain circuмstances He would not give men any mandate, would not impose any duty, and would not even communicate the right to impede or to repress what is erroneous and false? A look at things as they are gives an affirmative answer."

    Thus the two principles are clarified to which recourse must be had in concrete cases for the answer to the serious question concerning the attitude which the jurist, the statesman and the sovereign Catholic state is to adopt in consideration of the community of nations in regard to a formula of religious and moral toleration as described above.

    First: that which does not correspond to truth or to the norm of morality objectively has no right to exist, to be spread or to be activated. Secondly: failure to impede this with civil laws and coercive measures can nevertheless be justified in the interests of a higher and more general good.


    Now, with regard to the traditional teaching of the Church, it is clear that she has claimed for the sovereign Christian kingdom, where she has her rightful place, the right to repress error in itself, and secondly, more proper to herself, the right to compel the baptized who received the Faith under her guidance to fulfil their obligations. It appears to me that the two are not necessarily irreconciliable.

    The thought of Pope Pius XII seems to be that God certainly has absolute and sovereign rights over error and sin, which He may and often does communicate both to State and Church as He has in the past. However, in certain circuмstances He deems it fit not to, and so the affirmation that "religious and moral error must always be impeded, when it is possible, because toleration of them is in itself immoral, is not valid absolutely and unconditionally".

    As for Dignitatis Humanae, I'll say this, we know that rights are primarily founded in the truth. Yet, however correct it may be in itself, we can hardly maintain to, say, Communists, that they ought not to persecute Christians because Christianity is true. So my understanding is that the Church used the same term that others used, "religious freedom", because prudence and the suffering of Christians called for it, but she defined it drastically differently.

    "Religious freedom" is here understood not as the right to be wrong, but as the right of fulfilling freely one's obligation to seek the truth and whatever is consequent to that, which has due limits. Thus defined, it differs from simple "liberty" as defined by others which was just licence for error, which would pretend that man has no such obligation.

    Even the paragraph cited by Fr.Gleize says

    Quote
    It is in accordance with their dignity as persons-that is, beings endowed with reason and free will and therefore privileged to bear personal responsibility-that all men should be at once impelled by nature and also bound by a moral obligation to seek the truth, especially religious truth. They are also bound to adhere to the truth, once it is known, and to order their whole lives in accord with the demands of truth


    And the next explains what the right actually is, the right to seek the truth freely, and later again it is said this is not an unlimited right.

    Quote
    Wherefore every man has the duty, and therefore the right, to seek the truth in matters religious in order that he may with prudence form for himself right and true judgments of conscience, under use of all suitable means.


    Also in saying "No merely human power can either command or prohibit acts of this kind." the Church clearly speaks only of civil states and excludes herself. She still has and has never relinquished the right to command and prohibit "acts of this kind" and the power of using force, as she may do in the future, but usually only for a just cause as she has in the past.

    Forgive the length, again, but I think that this is an important topic, that needs serious discussion between the SSPX and other Catholics.

    "Never will anyone who says his Rosary every day become a formal heretic ... This is a statement I would sign in my blood." St. Montfort, Secret of the Rosary. I support the FSSP, the SSPX and other priests who work for the restoration of doctrinal orthodoxy and liturgical orthopraxis in the Church. I accept Vatican II if interpreted in the light of Tradition and canonisations as an infallible declaration that a person is in Heaven. Sedevacantism is schismatic and Ecclesiavacantism is heretical.