Author Topic: Monsignor Fenton -- baldfaced liar. (Read 18890 times)

SJB · « **Reply #240 on:** March 26, 2010, 07:51:42 AM »

Quote from: Ladislaus

Quote from: SJB
What was done after Vatican II is the real problem. This was done by Paul VI and his successors.

I never thought I'd see that day when a sedevacantist implies that Vatican II itself may have been OK, that only the aftermath was bad. Maybe that's why you're so upset.

You still haven't seen the day.

The Church is a society governed by real living people, it is not a set of docuмents that we interpret for ourselves. The proximate rule of faith for a Catholic is the preaching of the Church, which is done by real people.

Quote

I guess you'd rather do that than ever admit that there might have been problems in the sacrosanct catechisms and theology manuals in circulation before Vatican II. So, yes, you do imply that 1962 and before was this utopia and golden age of Catholic orthodoxy.

I'm just saying that post V2, they got rid of all those catechisms and theology manuals. They had to get rid of them, Ladislaus. That means they were orthodox, not that they were perfect.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #241 on:** March 26, 2010, 08:52:51 AM »

Quote from: SJB

I'm just saying that post V2, they got rid of all those catechisms and theology manuals. They had to get rid of them, Ladislaus. That means they were orthodox, not that they were perfect.

orthodox?

Like this little nugget? (a word-for-word contradiction of EENS):

Quote from: Baltimore Catechism

They who remain outside the Catholic Church ... can be saved ...

SJB · « **Reply #242 on:** March 26, 2010, 09:02:35 AM »

Quote from: Ladislaus

Quote from: SJB
I'm just saying that post V2, they got rid of all those catechisms and theology manuals. They had to get rid of them, Ladislaus. That means they were orthodox, not that they were perfect.

orthodox?

Like this little nugget? (a word-for-word contradiction of EENS):

Quote from: Baltimore Catechism
They who remain outside the Catholic Church ... can be saved ...

Quote from: Baltimore Catechism

(a) "Outside the Church there is no salvation" does not mean that everyone who is not a Catholic will be condemned. It does mean that no one can be saved unless he belongs in some manner to the Catholic Church, either actually or in desire, for the means of grace are not given without some relation to the divine institution established by Christ.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #243 on:** March 26, 2010, 09:10:40 AM »

EENS says that those who remain "OUTSIDE" the Church cannot be saved. Baltimore Catechism states that people can somehow "belong to" the Church without being inside. So this "belonging to" does not in any way change the fact that the BC explicitly states that outside the Church there can be salvation.

So you claim that the BC must be orthodox because it was issued by Catholic bishops and yet these same Catholic bishops can bring us Vatican II? Oh, that's right, they weren't really bishops. But then what says they were already not bishops well before Vatican II? At what point did they cease being bishops?

Ladislaus · « **Reply #244 on:** March 26, 2010, 09:12:19 AM »

As you just pointed out, BC states that both Catholics and non-Catholics can belong to the Church--which, once again, is precisely the V2 ecclesiology.

SJB · « **Reply #245 on:** March 26, 2010, 09:19:30 AM »

Quote from: Ladislaus

EENS says that those who remain "OUTSIDE" the Church cannot be saved. Baltimore Catechism states that people can somehow "belong to" the Church without being inside. So this "belonging to" does not in any way change the fact that the BC explicitly states that outside the Church there can be salvation.

So you claim that the BC must be orthodox because it was issued by Catholic bishops and yet these same Catholic bishops can bring us Vatican II? Oh, that's right, they weren't really bishops. But then what says they were already not bishops well before Vatican II? At what point did they cease being bishops?

As I noted before, if one carefully considers the declarations of the Popes and councils, they do not in so many words require membership in the Church. What they require is not being "outside the Church" (extra Ecclesiam exsistentes), submission to the Supreme Pontiff, and persevering "in the bosom and unity of the Church."

Quote from: Ladislaus

Baltimore Catechism states that people can somehow "belong to" the Church without being inside.

No, it does not. I agree that the wording of the BC should have been changed. That is my opinion.

SJB · « **Reply #246 on:** March 26, 2010, 09:23:48 AM »

Quote from: SJB on March 22

You wish to prove your (above) thesis about Vatican II. That blinds you, Ladislaus. As I said before, there is a distinction, and the same one made in the Holy Office letter, between means of salvation which are intrinsically necessary for salvation, and those which are necessary only by divine institution. The latter, clearly, were not necessary at all times, because they did not exist until Christ's coming.

I also pointed out that the Baltimore Catechism (1908) that I am looking at says the same things that you have said here as far as the unlikely possibility of salvation for one who is not a formal member of the Church.

I'm not going to convince you of anything here, so I'll retire from this discussion.

Raoul76 · « **Reply #247 on:** December 28, 2012, 02:18:46 PM »

Wow, I had forgotten about this one. I think I may have apologized for this already. But since I no longer think invincible ignorance is a heresy, of course I repent of saying Mgr. Fenton was a liar. His is one of the most accurate explanations of what "outside the Church there is no salvation" really means.

Santo Subito · « **Reply #248 on:** December 28, 2012, 02:26:42 PM »

Quote from: Raoul76

Wow, I had forgotten about this one. I think I may have apologized for this already. But since I no longer think invincible ignorance is a heresy, of course I repent of saying Mgr. Fenton was a liar. His is one of the most accurate explanations of what "outside the Church there is no salvation" really means.

You are going to have to expand your signature line!

Is this the "Raoul apology tour" ala JPII? j/k :wink:

Cheryl · « **Reply #249 on:** December 28, 2012, 04:34:33 PM »

Quote from: Raoul76

Wow, I had forgotten about this one. I think I may have apologized for this already. But since I no longer think invincible ignorance is a heresy, of course I repent of saying Mgr. Fenton was a liar. His is one of the most accurate explanations of what "outside the Church there is no salvation" really means.

Mike, you have been quite a prolific poster on the forum. Are you reading through all your old posts?

Elizabeth · « **Reply #250 on:** December 28, 2012, 04:49:39 PM »

Quote from: Raoul76

Wow, I had forgotten about this one. I think I may have apologized for this already. But since I no longer think invincible ignorance is a heresy, of course I repent of saying Mgr. Fenton was a liar. His is one of the most accurate explanations of what "outside the Church there is no salvation" really means.

:cheers: