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Author Topic: Damned Lies  (Read 5632 times)

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Offline Lover of Truth

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Damned Lies
« on: December 03, 2013, 07:23:42 AM »
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  • http://www.christorchaos.com/SomeoneWasKilledToKeepJ.R.Alive.html

    The lies that were told by Fathers Annibale Bugnini, C.M., and Ferdinando Antontelli, O.F.M., in the 1950s gave us unprecedented and most radical changes in the Holy Week ceremonies that started to accustom Catholics to ceaseless change as an ordinary feature of the liturgical life of the Catholic Church, climaxing in the Trojan Horse that was the Protestant and Masonic Novus Ordo service that, no matter how many times the conciliarists to "fix it," will always be an instrument of innovation and experimentation as it was designed to be precisely that from the moment Bugnini and Antonelli began their plans for the "Mass of the Future."
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church


    Online Ladislaus

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    Damned Lies
    « Reply #1 on: December 03, 2013, 08:43:14 AM »
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  • Lies that were endorsed, alas, by Pius XII.


    Offline SJB

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    Damned Lies
    « Reply #2 on: December 03, 2013, 08:59:18 AM »
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  • Quote from: Lover of Truth
    http://www.christorchaos.com/SomeoneWasKilledToKeepJ.R.Alive.html

    The lies that were told by Fathers Annibale Bugnini, C.M., and Ferdinando Antontelli, O.F.M., in the 1950s gave us unprecedented and most radical changes in the Holy Week ceremonies that started to accustom Catholics to ceaseless change as an ordinary feature of the liturgical life of the Catholic Church, climaxing in the Trojan Horse that was the Protestant and Masonic Novus Ordo service that, no matter how many times the conciliarists to "fix it," will always be an instrument of innovation and experimentation as it was designed to be precisely that from the moment Bugnini and Antonelli began their plans for the "Mass of the Future."


    How could a change in Holy Week, which ceremonies were not attended by enormous numbers of Catholics, be the cause of "starting to accustom Catholics to ceaseless change as an ordinary feature of the liturgical life of the Catholic Church?"
    It would be comparatively easy for us to be holy if only we could always see the character of our neighbours either in soft shade or with the kindly deceits of moonlight upon them. Of course, we are not to grow blind to evil

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Damned Lies
    « Reply #3 on: December 03, 2013, 09:39:04 AM »
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  • Quote from: SJB
    Quote from: Lover of Truth
    http://www.christorchaos.com/SomeoneWasKilledToKeepJ.R.Alive.html

    The lies that were told by Fathers Annibale Bugnini, C.M., and Ferdinando Antontelli, O.F.M., in the 1950s gave us unprecedented and most radical changes in the Holy Week ceremonies that started to accustom Catholics to ceaseless change as an ordinary feature of the liturgical life of the Catholic Church, climaxing in the Trojan Horse that was the Protestant and Masonic Novus Ordo service that, no matter how many times the conciliarists to "fix it," will always be an instrument of innovation and experimentation as it was designed to be precisely that from the moment Bugnini and Antonelli began their plans for the "Mass of the Future."


    How could a change in Holy Week, which ceremonies were not attended by enormous numbers of Catholics, be the cause of "starting to accustom Catholics to ceaseless change as an ordinary feature of the liturgical life of the Catholic Church?"


    You must be aware of the number of changes starting in 1951 - 1958.  Was not the Easter Vigil attended by an enormous amount of Catholics?  Were not all Catholics made aware of this change?  The starting starts when it starts, under Bugnini and Antonelli and ends where the Novus Ordo is now, or rather never ends until God ends it.

    http://www.fathercekada.com/2009/04/10/bugninis-51-easter-vigil-first-step-to-the-novus-ordo/
    Quote

    In February 1951, Holy See issued a decree permitting, experimentally and for period of one year, the celebration of the Easter Vigil at night Holy Saturday. Once again, merely allowing a change of time would not have been particularly objectionable.

    But Bugnini and company, who since 1948 controlled the Vatican commission for liturgical reform, seized the occasion to introduce changes into the rites themselves. So secret was the work of his commission on this project, Bugnini said, “that the publication of the Renewed Order for Holy Saturday at the beginning of March 1951 caught even the officials of the Congregation of Rites by surprise.” (Annibale Bugnini, La Riforma Liturgica: 1948–1975 [Rome: CLV 1983], 25)

    The 1951 Easter Vigil was the first crack the modernists had at destroying the liturgy, and they made the most of it.

    The surprise of Bugnini’s (theoretical) superiors seems be reflected in the content of decree by which the Congregation promulgated the Renewed Order; it is mainly devoted to discussing the change of time, and mentions, almost as an afterthought, “the rubrics that follow.” (See SC Rites Decree Dominicae Resurrectionis Vigiliam, 9 February 1951, AAS 43 [1951], 128–9.)


    The changes in 1955 were twelve.  

     
    Quote
      (1) The blessing prayers for the Easter fire are reduced from three to one.

        (2) A new ceremony for inscribing and blessing the Paschal candle was introduced.

        (3) The “reed” or triple candle (richly symbolic of the Trinity and the Incarnation) used to bring the Easter fire into the church was abolished.

        (4) The clergy and people are supposed to carry candles.

        (5) The magnificent Old Testament prophecies telling the whole story of Redemption are reduced in number from twelve to four. (So much for giving Scripture back to the people…)

        (6) The celebrant sits and listens to the readings. The rubrics imply that these may be proclaimed in the vernacular.

        (7) The celebrant chants the collects at the sedilia, rather than at the altar. (Again, think Novus Ordo-style president’s chair.)

        (8) A pause for prayer is introduced after Flectamus genua (Let us kneel) in the orations.

        (9) The baptismal water is blessed in the sanctuary facing the people (rather than in the baptistery), and carried to the baptistery in a tub.

        (10) The Litany of the Saints is divided into two and abbreviated.

        (11) All those present recite a “Renewal of Baptismal Vows” in the vernacular — the first time the vernacular is explicitly permitted as an integral part of a liturgical rite.

        (12) The Prayers at the Foot of the Altar are dropped in their entirety from the Mass, as is the Last Gospel.


    Father Ahearn who is a very well respect SV does not adhere to the changes neither do others who left SSPV to become independent as they accept the Thuc-line consecrations.  Neither do the SSPV.  Neither do many independent Priests SV or not who studied the changes and who was behind them and where they led.  I dare say neither would a well Pius XII were he aware of the motives behind the ones who made the changes and where those changes would lead.  

    When do the changes stop being cool if not the above?

    1961/2?

    1964?

    1967?

    1969?

    Can you put a date on when the changes went from good to bad or okay to not okay?  How about imprudent to reprehensible and impossible for a valid Pope to allow or promulgate?

    The above obviously can be done under a valid Pope.  But that does not make it the greatest thing that ever happened during the course of a papacy I am sure you will agree.

    Were not the people and priests mind you, those who led the people, and bishops and cardinals and the Pope himself not getting used to the changes by 1958?  These change became the norm until the Mass and Sacraments were destroyed.  This cannot be denied by the objective observer.  

    Obviously these Priests are not stupid and more studied in the liturgy than CI posters though some will claim categorically, with no room for debate, that we should be stuck in 1958 rather than from 400 - 1954.  Yes I'm aware what  happened liturgically those years, things to increase devotion not things to be cut out or eliminated or would lead to the protestantization of the Mass.
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline SJB

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    Damned Lies
    « Reply #4 on: December 03, 2013, 10:16:03 AM »
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  • Quote from: LoT
    You must be aware of the number of changes starting in 1951 - 1958.  Was not the Easter Vigil attended by an enormous amount of Catholics?  Were not all Catholics made aware of this change?


    Can you actually answer these questions? Or did you intend them to be rhetorical?
    It would be comparatively easy for us to be holy if only we could always see the character of our neighbours either in soft shade or with the kindly deceits of moonlight upon them. Of course, we are not to grow blind to evil


    Offline RomanCatholic1953

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    Damned Lies
    « Reply #5 on: December 03, 2013, 10:21:01 AM »
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  • I must admit as an older Catholic, when I attended Catholic School in the
    late 1950's into the 1960's, I never attended any Holy Week Ceremony
    because the school was closed for Easter Vacation.

    Offline roscoe

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    Damned Lies
    « Reply #6 on: December 03, 2013, 10:36:52 AM »
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  • This topic is just another shot at Pius XII. I am not buying it.  :whistleblower:
    There Is No Such Thing As 'Sede Vacantism'...
    nor is there such thing as a 'Feeneyite' or 'Feeneyism'

    Offline SJB

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    Damned Lies
    « Reply #7 on: December 03, 2013, 10:42:58 AM »
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  • Quote from: RC53
    I must admit as an older Catholic, when I attended Catholic School in the late 1950's into the 1960's, I never attended any Holy Week Ceremony because the school was closed for Easter Vacation.


    I don't believe these ceremonies were very well attended, but I'm not making any claim that requires this as a premise. LoT has made the claim (or implied it) that the "well-attended" ceremonies that were changed caused a slippery-slope into the Novus Ordo. He has something to prove, not me.
    It would be comparatively easy for us to be holy if only we could always see the character of our neighbours either in soft shade or with the kindly deceits of moonlight upon them. Of course, we are not to grow blind to evil


    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Damned Lies
    « Reply #8 on: December 03, 2013, 11:22:37 AM »
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  • Quote from: SJB
    Quote from: LoT
    You must be aware of the number of changes starting in 1951 - 1958.  Was not the Easter Vigil attended by an enormous amount of Catholics?  Were not all Catholics made aware of this change?


    Can you actually answer these questions? Or did you intend them to be rhetorical?


    I'm wanting you to answer the above and below questions.

    The topic is about  

    "The lies that were told by Fathers Annibale Bugnini, C.M., and Ferdinando Antontelli, O.F.M., in the 1950s gave us unprecedented and most radical changes in the Holy Week ceremonies that started to accustom Catholics to ceaseless change "

    The quote does not talk about an "enormous" amount of Catholics.  Do you affirm or deny that all the clergy including bishops, cardinals and the Pope himself began to get used to repeated changes?  Can you answer the question you ask?  How many lay-people were aware of the changes?  I submit they obviously were aware of the change from early morning to evening Mass on Holy Saturday and that they were, unless they went through life in a daze or did not regularly attend Mass were aware of some of the more obvious changes in the list of twelve changes listed above.  Can you tell me?

    When do the changes stop being cool if not the above?

    1961/2?

    1964?

    1967?

    1969?

    Can you put a date on when the changes went from good to bad or okay to not okay?  How about imprudent to reprehensible and impossible for a valid Pope to allow or promulgate?

    The above obviously can be done under a valid Pope.  But that does not make it the greatest thing that ever happened during the course of a papacy I am sure you will agree.

    Were not the people and priests mind you, those who led the people, and bishops and cardinals and the Pope himself not getting used to the changes by 1958?
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline roscoe

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    Damned Lies
    « Reply #9 on: December 03, 2013, 12:37:54 PM »
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  • Quote from: roscoe
    This topic is just another cheap shot at Pius XII. I am not buying it.  :whistleblower:


    There Is No Such Thing As 'Sede Vacantism'...
    nor is there such thing as a 'Feeneyite' or 'Feeneyism'

    Offline Capt McQuigg

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    Damned Lies
    « Reply #10 on: December 03, 2013, 01:05:10 PM »
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  • Quote from: Ladislaus
    Lies that were endorsed, alas, by Pius XII.


    This is a hard truth, but nonetheless true.  Pope Pius XII was the big truck that carried the tools of destruction to the worksite.


    Offline Capt McQuigg

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    Damned Lies
    « Reply #11 on: December 03, 2013, 01:21:17 PM »
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  • Quote from: roscoe
    Quote from: roscoe
    This topic is just another cheap shot at Pius XII. I am not buying it.  :whistleblower:




    Maybe we should just really pretend that none of the pre-work for Vatican II was actually done during Pius XII's papacy.  

    Perhaps he really was unaware of all the changes being made by Montini because we still aren't sure what the "betrayal" was that got Montini removed.

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Damned Lies
    « Reply #12 on: December 03, 2013, 02:18:29 PM »
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  • Quote from: Capt McQuigg
    Quote from: roscoe
    Quote from: roscoe
    This topic is just another cheap shot at Pius XII. I am not buying it.  :whistleblower:




    Maybe we should just really pretend that none of the pre-work for Vatican II was actually done during Pius XII's papacy.  

    Perhaps he really was unaware of all the changes being made by Montini because we still aren't sure what the "betrayal" was that got Montini removed.


    Sarcasm alert:

    Right.  It happened over night or at least between the death of Pius XII and the election of Roncalli.  It was magical almost.   :sleep:
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline GregorianChat

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    Damned Lies
    « Reply #13 on: December 03, 2013, 02:28:57 PM »
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  • A valid pope can make changes. Was he tricked by the Bugnini crowd into making these changes while he was ill, or were they his ideas? I don't know.

    Could someone tell me how these changes made the mass invalid or what heresies result from these changes? If not, then why are we talking about it?
    2 Thessalonians 2:14 Therefore, brethren, stand fast; and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word, or by our epistle.

    Galatians Chapter 1:8-9 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach a

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Damned Lies
    « Reply #14 on: December 03, 2013, 03:39:36 PM »
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  • Having read Fr Cekada's book, Work of Human Hands, I absolutely think these are valid concerns.  That doesn't mean we blame Pius XII, but to ignore the extent (and kinds) of the changes at that time would be an oversight.
    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)