Catholic Info
Traditional Catholic Faith => Crisis in the Church => Topic started by: Lover of Truth on September 18, 2014, 06:37:21 AM
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http://sedevacantist.com/encyclicals/Paul04/cuмex.html
"cuм ex Apostolatus Officio"
Apostolic Constitution of Pope Paul IV, 15th February 1559
(Roman Bullarium Vol. IV. Sec. I, pp. 354-357)
Text translated by Mr John S. Daly
By virtue of the Apostolic office which, despite our unworthiness, has been entrusted to Us by God, We are responsible for the general care of the flock of the Lord. Because of this, in order that the flock may be faithfully guarded and beneficially directed, We are bound to be diligently watchful after the manner of a vigilant Shepherd and to ensure most carefully that certain people who consider the study of the truth beneath them should be driven out of the sheepfold of Christ and no longer continue to disseminate error from positions of authority. We refer in particular to those who in this age, impelled by their sinfulness and supported by their cunning, are attacking with unusual learning and malice the discipline of the orthodox Faith, and who, moreover, by perverting the import of Holy Scripture, are striving to rend the unity of the Catholic Church and the seamless tunic of the Lord.
1.In assessing Our duty and the situation now prevailing, We have been weighed upon by the thought that a matter of this kind [i.e. error in respect of the Faith] is so grave and so dangerous that the Roman Pontiff,who is the representative upon earth of God and our God and Lord Jesus Christ, who holds the fulness of power over peoples and kingdoms, who may judge all and be judged by none in this world, may nonetheless be contradicted if he be found to have deviated from the Faith. Remembering also that, where danger is greater, it must more fully and more diligently be counteracted, We have been concerned lest false prophets or others, even if they have only secular jurisdiction, should wretchedly ensnare the souls of the simple, and drag with them into perdition, destruction and damnation countless peoples committed to their care and rule, either in spiritual or in temporal matters; and We have been concerned also lest it may befall Us to see the abomination of desolation, which was spoken of by the prophet Daniel, in the holy place. In view of this, Our desire has been to fulfil our Pastoral duty, insofar as, with the help of God, We are able, so as to arrest the foxes who are occupying themselves in the destruction of the vineyard of the Lord and to keep the wolves from the sheepfolds, lest We seem to be dumb watchdogs that cannot bark and lest We perish with the wicked husbandman and be compared with the hireling.
2 Hence, concerning these matters, We have held mature deliberation with our venerable brothers the Cardinals of the Holy Roman Church; and, upon their advice and with their unanimous agreement, we now enact as follows:-
In respect of each and every sentence of excommunication, suspension, interdict and privation and any other sentences, censures and penalties against heretics or schismatics, enforced and promulgated in any way whatsoever by any of Our predecessors the Roman Pontiffs, or by any who were held to be such (even by their "litterae extravagantes" i.e. private letters), or by the sacred Councils received by the Church of God, or by decrees of the Holy Fathers and the statutes, or by the sacred Canons and the Constitutions and Apostolic Ordinations - all these measures, by Apostolic authority, We approve and renew, that they may and must be observed in perpetuity and, if perchance they be no longer in lively observance, that they be restored to it.
Thus We will and decree that the aforementioned sentences, censures and penalties be incurred without exception by all members of the following categories:
(i) Anysoever who, before this date, shall have been detected to have deviated from the Catholic Faith, or fallen into any heresy, or incurred schism, or provoked or committed either or both of these, or who have confessed to have done any of these things, or who have been convicted of having done any of these things.
(ii) Anysoever who (which may God, in His clemency and goodness to all, deign to avert) shall in the future so deviate or fall into heresy, or incur schism, or shall provoke or commit either or both of these.
(iii) Anysoever who shall be detected to have so deviated, fallen, incurred, provoked or committed, or who shall confess to have done any of these things, or who shall be convicted of having done any of these things.
These sanctions, moreover, shall be incurred by all members of these categories, of whatever status, grace, order, condition and pre-eminence they may be, even if they be endowed with the Episcopal, Archiepiscopal, Patriarchal, Primatial or some other greater Ecclesiastical dignity, or with the honour of the Cardinalate and of the Universal Apostolic See by the office of Legate, whether temporary or permanent, or if they be endowed with even worldly authority or excellence, as Count, Baron, Marquis, Duke, King or Emperor.
All this We will and decree.
3. Nonetheless, We also consider it proper that those who do not abandon evil deeds through love of virtue should be deterred therefrom by fear of punishment; and We are aware that Bishops, Archbishops, Patriarchs, Primates, Cardinals and Legates, Counts, Barons, Marquises, Dukes, Kings and Emperors (who ought to teach others and offer them a good example in order to preserve them in the Catholic Faith), by failing in their duty sin more gravely than others; since they not only damn themselves, but also drag with them into perdition and into the pit of death countless other people entrusted to their care or rule, or otherwise subject to them, by their like counsel and agreement.
Hence, by this Our Constitution which is to remain valid in perpetuity, in abomination of so great a crime (than which none in the Church of God can be greater or more pernicious) by the fulness of our Apostolic Power, We enact, determine, decree and define (since the aforesaid sentences, censures and penalties are to remain in efficacious force and strike all those whom they are intended to strike) that:-
(i) each and every member of the following categories - Bishops, Archbishops, Patriarchs, Primates, Cardinals, Legates, Counts, Barons, Marquises, Dukes, Kings and Emperors - who:
(a)hitherto (as We have already said) have been detected, or have confessed to have, or have been convicted of having, deviated [i.e. from the Catholic Faith], or fallen into heresy or incurred schism or provoked or committed either or both of these;
(b) in the future also shall [so] deviate, or fall into heresy, or incur schism, or provoke or commit either or both of these, or shall be detected or shall confess to have, or shall be convicted of having [so] deviated, or fallen into heresy, or incurred schism, or provoked or committed either or both of these;
(since in this they are rendered more inexcusable than the rest) in addition to the aforementioned sentences, censures and penalties, shall also automatically, without any exercise of law or application of fact, be thoroughly, entirely and perpetually deprived of:- their Orders and Cathedrals, even Metropolitan, Patriarchal and Primatial Churches, the honour of the Cardinalate and the office of any embassy whatsoever, not to mention both active and passive voting rights, all authority, Monasteries, benefices and Ecclesiastical offices, be they functional or sinecures, secular or religious of whatsoever Order, which they may have obtained by any concessions whatsoever, or by Apostolic Dispensations to title, charge and administration or otherwise howsoever, and in which or to which they may have any right whatsoever, likewise any whatsoever fruits, returns or annual revenues from like fruits, returns and revenues reserved for and assigned to them, as well as Countships, Baronies, Marquisates, Dukedoms, Kingships and Imperial Power;
(ii) that, moreover, they shall be unfit and incapable in respect of these things and that they shall be held to be backsliders and subverted in every way, just as if they had previously abjured heresy of this kind in public trial; that they shall never at any time be able to be restored, returned, reinstated or rehabilitated to their former status or Cathedral, Metropolitan, Patriarchal and Primatial Churches, or the Cardinalate, or other honour, any other dignity, greater or lesser, any right to vote, active or passive, or authority, or Monasteries and benefices, or Countships, Baronies, Marquisates, Dukedoms, Kingships and positions of Imperial power; but rather that they shall be abandoned to the judgement of the secular power to be punished after due consideration, unless there should appear in them signs of true penitence and the fruits of worthy repentance, and, by the kindness and clemency of the See itself, they shall have been sentenced to sequestration in any Monastery or other religious house in order to perform perpetual penance upon the bread of sorrow and the water of affliction;
(iii) that all such individuals also shall be held, treated and reputed as such by everyone, of whatsoever status, grade, order, condition or pre-eminence he may be and whatsoever excellence may be his, even Episcopal, Archiepiscopal, Patriarchal and Primatial or other greater Ecclesiastical dignity and even the honour of the Cardinalate, or secular, even the authority of Count, Baron, Marquis, Duke, King or Emperor, and as such must be avoided and must be deprived of the sympathy of all natural kindess.
4. [By this Our Constitution, which is to remain valid in perpetuity, We] further enact, determine, decree and define:-]
that those who shall have claimed to have the right of patronage or of nominating suitable persons to Cathedral, Metropolitan, Patriarchal and Primatial Churches, or to Monasteries or other Ecclesiastical benefices which may be vacant by privation of this kind (in order that those which shall have been vacant for a long time may not be exposed to the unfit, but, having been rescued from enslavement to heretics, may be granted to suitable persons who would faithfully direct their people in the paths of justice), shall be bound to present other persons suitable to Churches, Monasteries and benefices of this kind, to Us, or to the Roman Pontiff at that time existing, within the time determined by law, or by their concordats, or by compacts entered into with the said See; and that, if they shall not have done so when the said period shall have elapsed, the full and free disposition of the aforesaid Churches, Monasteries and benefices shall by the fulness of the law itself devolve upon Us or upon the aforesaid Roman Pontiff.
5. [By this Our Constitution,] moreover, [which is to remain valid in perpetuity, We] also [enact, determine, decree and define:-]
as follows concerning those who shall have presumed in any way knowingly to receive, defend, favour, believe or teach the teaching of those so apprehended, confessed or convicted:
(i) they shall automatically incur sentence of excommunication;
(ii) they shall be rendered infamous;
(iii) they shall be excluded on pain of invalidity from any public or private office, deliberation, Synod, general or provincial Council and any conclave of Cardinals or other congregation of the faithful, and from any election or function of witness, so that they cannot take part in any of these by vote, in person, by writings, representative or by any agent;
(iv) they shall be incapable of making a will;
(v) they shall not accede to the succession of heredity;
(vi) no one shall be forced to respond to them concerning any business;
(vii) if perchance they shall have been Judges, their judgements shall have no force, nor shall any cases be brought to their hearing.;
(viii) if they shall have been Advocates, their pleading shall nowise be received;
(ix) if they shall have been Notaries, docuмents drafted by them shall be entirely without strength or weight;
(x) clerics shall be automatically deprived of each and every Church, even Cathedral, Metropolitan, Patriarchal, Primatial, and likewise of dignities, Monasteries, benefices and Ecclesiastical offices, and even, as has been already mentioned, of qualifications, howsoever obtained by them;
(xi) laymen, moreover, in the same way - even if they be qualified, as already described, or endowed with the aforesaid dignities or anysoever Kingdoms, Duchies, Dominions, Fiefs and temporal goods possessed by them;
(xii) finally, all Kingdoms, Duchies, Dominions, Fiefs and goods of this kind shall be confiscated, made public and shall remain so, and shall be made the rightful property of those who shall first occupy them if these shall be sincere in faith, in the unity of the Holy Roman Church and under obedience to Us and to Our successors the Roman Pontiffs canonically entering office.
6. In addition, [by this Our Constitution, which is to remain valid in perpetuity We enact, determine, decree and define:-]
that if ever at any time it shall appear that any Bishop, even if he be acting as an Archbishop, Patriarch or Primate; or any Cardinal of the aforesaid Roman Church, or, as has already been mentioned, any legate, or even the Roman Pontiff, prior to his promotion or his elevation as Cardinal or Roman Pontiff, has deviated from the Catholic Faith or fallen into some heresy:
(i) the promotion or elevation, even if it shall have been uncontested and by the unanimous assent of all the Cardinals, shall be null, void and worthless;
(ii) it shall not be possible for it to acquire validity (nor for it to be said that it has thus acquired validity) through the acceptance of the office, of consecration, of subsequent authority, nor through possession of administration, nor through the putative enthronement of a Roman Pontiff, or Veneration, or obedience accorded to such by all, nor through the lapse of any period of time in the foregoing situation;
(iii) it shall not be held as partially legitimate in any way;
(iv) to any so promoted to be Bishops, or Archbishops, or Patriarchs, or Primates or elevated as Cardinals, or as Roman Pontiff, no authority shall have been granted, nor shall it be considered to have been so granted either in the spiritual or the temporal domain;
(v) each and all of their words, deeds, actions and enactments, howsoever made, and anything whatsoever to which these may give rise, shall be without force and shall grant no stability whatsoever nor any right to anyone;
(vi) those thus promoted or elevated shall be deprived automatically, and without need for any further declaration, of all dignity, position, honour, title, authority, office and power.
7. Finally, [by this Our Constitution, which is to remain valid in perpetuity, We] also [enact, determine, define and decree]:-
that any and all persons who would have been subject to those thus promoted or elevated if they had not previously deviated from the Faith, become heretics, incurred schism or provoked or committed any or all of these, be they members of anysoever of the following categories:
(i) the clergy, secular and religious;
(ii) the laity;
(iii) the Cardinals, even those who shall have taken part in the election of this very Pontiff previously deviating from the Faith or heretical or schismatical, or shall otherwise have consented and vouchsafed obedience to him and shall have venerated him;
(iv) Castellans, Prefects, Captains and Officials, even of Our Beloved City and of the entire Ecclesiastical State, even if they shall be obliged and beholden to those thus promoted or elevated by homage, oath or security;
shall be permitted at any time to withdraw with impunity from obedience and devotion to those thus promoted or elevated and to avoid them as warlocks, heathens, publicans, and heresiarchs (the same subject persons, nevertheless, remaining bound by the duty of fidelity and obedience to any future Bishops, Archbishops, Patriarchs, Primates, Cardinals and Roman Pontiff canonically entering).
To the greater confusion, moreover, of those thus promoted or elevated, if these shall have wished to prolong their government and authority, they shall be permitted to request the assistance of the secular arm against these same individuals thus promoted or elevated; nor shall those who withdraw on this account, in the aforementioned circuмstances, from fidelity and obedience to those thus promoted and elevated, be subject, as are those who tear the tunic of the Lord, to the retribution of any censures or penalties.
8. [The provisions of this Our Constitution, which is to remain valid in perpetuity are to take effect] notwithstanding any Constitutions, Apostolic Ordinations, privileges, indults or Apostolic Letters, whether they be to these same Bishops, Archbishops, Patriarchs, Primates and Cardinals or to any others, and whatsoever may be their import and form, and with whatsoever sub-clauses or decrees they may have been granted, even "motu proprio" and by certain knowledge, from the fulness of the Apostolic power or even consistorially or otherwise howsoever; and even if they have been repeatedly approved and renewed,have been included in the corpus of the Law or strengthened by any capital conclaves whatsoever (even by oath) or by Apostolic confirmation or by anysoever other endorsements or if they were legislated by ourself. By this present docuмent instead of by express mention, We specially and expressly derogate the provisions of all these by appropriate deletion and word-for-word substitution, so that these may otherwise remain in force.
9. In order, however, that this docuмent may be brought to the notice of all whom it concerns, We wish it or a transcription of it (to which, when made by the hand of the undersigned Public Notary and fortified by the seal of any person established in ecclesiastical dignity, We decree that complete trust must be accorded) to be published and affixed in the Basilica of the Prince of the Apostles in this City and on the doors of the Apostolic Chancery and in the pavilion of the Campus Florae by some of our couriers; [we] will [further] that a quantity of copies affixed in this place should be distributed, and that publication and affixing of this kind should suffice and be held as right, solemn and legitimate, and that no other publication should be required or awaited.
10. No one at all, therefore, may infringe this docuмent of our approbation, re-introduction, sanction, statute and derogation of wills and decrees, or by rash presumption contradict it. If anyone, however, should presume to attempt this, let him know that he is destined to incur the wrath of Almighty God and of the blessed Apostles, Peter and Paul.
Given in Rome at Saint Peter's in the year of the Incarnation of the Lord 1559, 15th February, in the fourth year of our Pontificate.
+ I, Paul, Bishop of the Catholic Church…
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It appears that this Constitution is initially targeting: "false prophets or others, even if they have only secular jurisdiction..................so as to arrest the foxes who are occupying themselves in the destruction of the vineyard of the Lord and to keep the wolves from the sheepfolds"
But it then continues on to be all inclusive of everyone who deviates from the Catholic faith without exception and without regard to position of authority within or without of the Church: Thus We will and decree that the aforementioned sentences, censures and penalties be incurred without exception by all members of the following categories: . . . . . .Anysoever who, before this date, [and in the future] shall have been detected to have deviated from the Catholic Faith, or fallen into any heresy..."
This does not stipulate that one must actually be a heretic, it states that *anyone at all* who "deviates from the faith" and falls into heresy suffers the penalties - since it is fact that all members including all clergy of the NO have deviated from the faith to at least some degree, this decree goes beyond condemning the pope because it (apparently) condemns all clergy and everyone else ("Anysoever") who accepts the errors taught by the conciliar Church and participates in it's worship services - has in fact, deviated from the faith.
1) To me, it seems all but inconceivable or at least illogical that any pope would ever provide the laity any authority to in any way reject the highest of all authority in the Church at that time or for any future time. He and his successors were given the keys and the power to bind and loose - he can never bestow or provide the laity with his authority and his responsibility.....so I do not understand how this constitution authorizes or made us responsible to ever declare that the Chair is vacant.
2) Certainly Pope Paul IV understood that were he to promulgate such a teaching that he would be risking the laity in rejecting not only him - but also all future popes whether they be valid popes or not. For me, this constitution never dictates that the pope has entrusted the laity - or anyone for that matter - with the responsibility of deposing the pope, much less provided them with the authority to do so.
3) While no one can deny this says that: "the promotion or elevation, even if it shall have been uncontested and by the unanimous assent of all the Cardinals, shall be null, void and worthless; - which is to say that the election itself never happened - which means that no pope was ever elected. Even if the new pope had never deviated from the faith and was a good pope, the election would still be null because the Cardinals, having deviated from the faith due to them holding heretical beliefs, rendered their vote null.
4) Something does not make sense *to me* because in the 1st paragraph, it testifies that the pope can indeed deviate from the faith - yet remain pope. It even verifies the pope does not lose his office when he deviates from the faith because it takes that a step further by reenforcing the teaching that the further the pope deviates from the faith, the more diligently he is to be counteracted.
This seems to me to contradict with the following paragraphs that allow no one in the hierarchy, including the pope, to deviate or to have ever deviated from the faith lest they lose their office and everything that comes with it when or if they do deviate.
5) Another thing that makes no sense to me is the ambiguity of declaring that Cardinals who deviated from the Catholic Faith or fallen into some heresy lose any right to vote - their vote is null and utterly worthless. IOW, it is as if they are not present when they cast their vote.
Well what happens in a "split decision" when the deciding vote comes from that one Cardinal who is a heretic? Or perhaps only 3 or 4 or 6 or 9 or 50 Cardinals are voting illegally and the one they voted for is elected by a margin so close that the heretical Cardinal's votes are the votes that decided who the next pope is?
6) This decree retains it's authoritative force forever - yet there is no formula given for a remedy were the pope to have deviated from the faith. Per the constitution, there is purposefully no remedy. Zero, none, nadda, ziltch. When the Cardinals, bishops, priests and laity are heretics, who will be in a position of correcting the whole election process when they cannot elect a pope? No one. This constitution positively eliminates every and all possibility of a remedy.
If Divine intervention is the only remedy, there is no mention of it whatsoever. - This is unlike any decree that I am aware of and gives good reason to be suspicious of the translation of it IMO.
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I'm glad you read it Stubborn. The Pope does not give the laity the authority to depose a Pope, purported or real. He does give us the reasons why such a one would not be Pope and should be avoided rather than heralded as head of the Church as Divine Law teaches. The purported Pope deposes himself, ipso facto, by public heresy, if he ever held the office in the first place. This is an undeniable theological premise. What one does with it is up to them. The Pope, divine law, canon law, the theologians, doctors, fathers, saints, logic and reason merely lay it out for us.
They do not give as the power to depose [one who is not Pope] but gives those with ears to hear the ability to acknowledge the fact.
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Then it contradicts it's self.
In the 1st paragraph, it testifies that the pope can indeed deviate from the faith - yet remain pope.
The worst part of the whole thing is that it offers no remedy at all. In fact, it basically is saying that the Church is not indefectable since no one is allowed in the clergy if they ever at any time held beliefs which deviated from the faith. This disqualifies even converts from entering the priesthood.
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Then it contradicts it's self.
In the 1st paragraph, it testifies that the pope can indeed deviate from the faith - yet remain pope.
The worst part of the whole thing is that it offers no remedy at all. In fact, it basically is saying that the Church is not indefectable since no one is allowed in the clergy if they ever at any time held beliefs which deviated from the faith. This disqualifies even converts from entering the priesthood.
Theological error is not always heresy; to "deviate from the faith" does not necessarily mean that a Pope is a formal heretic, but, if a Pope were to become a public heretic, then, yes, by divine law, he would cease to be a Catholic, that is, a member of the Mystical Body of Jesus Christ, and hence, would cease to be Pope. We are only called to make judgments to a moral certitude and not an absolute certitude.
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They do not give as the power to depose [one who is not Pope] but gives those with ears to hear the ability to acknowledge the fact.
If I understand you correctly that this docuмent does not give the power to depose on who is not a true pope, I think you missed this paragraph:
To the greater confusion, moreover, of those thus promoted or elevated, if these shall have wished to prolong their government and authority, they shall be permitted to request the assistance of the secular arm against these same individuals thus promoted or elevated; nor shall those who withdraw on this account, in the aforementioned circuмstances, from fidelity and obedience to those thus promoted and elevated, be subject, as are those who tear the tunic of the Lord, to the retribution of any censures or penalties.
The pope here says that if one refused to leave his office, we could appeal to the secular government (at the time this was written that would have been the emperor or a king) to forcibly remove the heretic. This is not an option in the current political environment, but secular authorities do indeed have the legal authority from this docuмent to depose a heretic who claims the papacy.
No wonder the Vatican 2 popes were so eager to separate Church from State.
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The pope here says that if one refused to leave his office, we could appeal to the secular government (at the time this was written that would have been the emperor or a king) to forcibly remove the heretic. This is not an option in the current political environment, but secular authorities do indeed have the legal authority from this docuмent to depose a heretic who claims the papacy.
No wonder the Vatican 2 popes were so eager to separate Church from State.
Wow.
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They do not give as the power to depose [one who is not Pope] but gives those with ears to hear the ability to acknowledge the fact.
If I understand you correctly that this docuмent does not give the power to depose on who is not a true pope, I think you missed this paragraph:
To the greater confusion, moreover, of those thus promoted or elevated, if these shall have wished to prolong their government and authority, they shall be permitted to request the assistance of the secular arm against if they had not previously deviated from the Faith; nor shall those who withdraw on this account, in the aforementioned circuмstances, from fidelity and obedience to those thus promoted and elevated, be subject, as are those who tear the tunic of the Lord, to the retribution of any censures or penalties.
The pope here says that if one refused to leave his office, we could appeal to the secular government (at the time this was written that would have been the emperor or a king) to forcibly remove the heretic. This is not an option in the current political environment, but secular authorities do indeed have the legal authority from this docuмent to depose a heretic who claims the papacy.
No wonder the Vatican 2 popes were so eager to separate Church from State.
But that is not what the pope is saying. What the pope is saying is, IMO confusing and illogical.
In the part that you quoted, when he says that "of those thus promoted or elevated"....
Isn't he speaking about the same "those thus promoted or elevated if they had not previously deviated from the Faith, become heretics, incurred schism or...." from the previous paragraph in the same section 7?
If so, what he is saying is that those who hold office validly, can can appeal to the secular government if they want to prolong their government and authority "against these same individuals thus promoted or elevated" - iow against others who hold their office validly. Which whether they validly or invalidly are in office, makes no sense to me.
Either way, the pope is saying those in office (validly or invalidly doesn't appear to matter imo) can defend their offices by calling in secular authorities.
One thing that's for sure is that he is in no way saying that "we" could appeal to secular authorities to forcibly remove anyone as you said, because in the above paragraph, he instructs us that we are "permitted at any time to withdraw with impunity from obedience and devotion to those thus promoted or elevated and to avoid them as warlocks, heathens, publicans, and heresiarchs..."
This is why I said that his Constitution is unlike any decree that I am aware of and there is good reason to be suspicious of the translation of it IMO.
Either the translation is corrupt or parts have been left out and it is incomplete - whatever it is, there is something wrong with it IMO.
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They do not give as the power to depose [one who is not Pope] but gives those with ears to hear the ability to acknowledge the fact.
If I understand you correctly that this docuмent does not give the power to depose on who is not a true pope, I think you missed this paragraph:
To the greater confusion, moreover, of those thus promoted or elevated, if these shall have wished to prolong their government and authority, they shall be permitted to request the assistance of the secular arm against these same individuals thus promoted or elevated; nor shall those who withdraw on this account, in the aforementioned circuмstances, from fidelity and obedience to those thus promoted and elevated, be subject, as are those who tear the tunic of the Lord, to the retribution of any censures or penalties.
The pope here says that if one refused to leave his office, we could appeal to the secular government (at the time this was written that would have been the emperor or a king) to forcibly remove the heretic. This is not an option in the current political environment, but secular authorities do indeed have the legal authority from this docuмent to depose a heretic who claims the papacy.
No wonder the Vatican 2 popes were so eager to separate Church from State.
Thanks for bringing that point up TKGS. As you know the disciplinary aspect is not still binding. And it was not saying Joe Schmo in the pew can authoritatively declare the See vacant, and all must adhere to Joe Schmo's declaration. But your point is well taken. Back then all collectively would see the situation today for what it is and have rejected our V2 imposters. If the world were Catholic we could indeed depose such imposters through force, because as Divine and Canon law teach a public heretic deposes himself. We would just do the physical removal and replace him with a Catholic.
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They do not give as the power to depose [one who is not Pope] but gives those with ears to hear the ability to acknowledge the fact.
If I understand you correctly that this docuмent does not give the power to depose on who is not a true pope, I think you missed this paragraph:
To the greater confusion, moreover, of those thus promoted or elevated, if these shall have wished to prolong their government and authority, they shall be permitted to request the assistance of the secular arm against if they had not previously deviated from the Faith; nor shall those who withdraw on this account, in the aforementioned circuмstances, from fidelity and obedience to those thus promoted and elevated, be subject, as are those who tear the tunic of the Lord, to the retribution of any censures or penalties.
The pope here says that if one refused to leave his office, we could appeal to the secular government (at the time this was written that would have been the emperor or a king) to forcibly remove the heretic. This is not an option in the current political environment, but secular authorities do indeed have the legal authority from this docuмent to depose a heretic who claims the papacy.
No wonder the Vatican 2 popes were so eager to separate Church from State.
But that is not what the pope is saying. What the pope is saying is, IMO confusing and illogical.
In the part that you quoted, when he says that "of those thus promoted or elevated"....
Isn't he speaking about the same "those thus promoted or elevated if they had not previously deviated from the Faith, become heretics, incurred schism or...." from the previous paragraph in the same section 7?
If so, what he is saying is that those who hold office validly, can can appeal to the secular government if they want to prolong their government and authority "against these same individuals thus promoted or elevated" - iow against others who hold their office validly. Which whether they validly or invalidly are in office, makes no sense to me.
Either way, the pope is saying those in office (validly or invalidly doesn't appear to matter imo) can defend their offices by calling in secular authorities.
One thing that's for sure is that he is in no way saying that "we" could appeal to secular authorities to forcibly remove anyone as you said, because in the above paragraph, he instructs us that we are "permitted at any time to withdraw with impunity from obedience and devotion to those thus promoted or elevated and to avoid them as warlocks, heathens, publicans, and heresiarchs..."
This is why I said that his Constitution is unlike any decree that I am aware of and there is good reason to be suspicious of the translation of it IMO.
Either the translation is corrupt or parts have been left out and it is incomplete - whatever it is, there is something wrong with it IMO.
Check with someone fluent in Latin that you trust and realize the translation is not faulty. After the Protestant revolt he was keenly aware that a heretic could be elevated to the Chair. He took steps to prevent it.
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Check with someone fluent in Latin that you trust and realize the translation is not faulty. After the Protestant revolt he was keenly aware that a heretic could be elevated to the Chair. He took steps to prevent it.
No pope in his right mind is going to promulgate a teaching which remains in force forever, which permits or encourages anyone to remove him or any future pope from office, or to declare him to not be the pope.
The Church is not a democracy so it simply does not work that way - nor does any form of monarchical government on earth for that matter.
QUESTION: Why *wouldn't* a pope promulgate such a thing?
ANSWER: Because all it would take is one Richard Ibryani or one King Henry VIII or any other influential person or persons with a diabolical agenda to opine the pope a heretic, gather forces and have him declared a heretic and thrown off the Chair. IOW, because of the risk of bad people deposing a good pope.
This translation is more than faulty and there has to be parts missing.
Back then all collectively would see the situation today for what it is and have rejected our V2 imposters. If the world were Catholic we could indeed depose such imposters through force, because as Divine and Canon law teach a public heretic deposes himself. We would just do the physical removal and replace him with a Catholic.
This is not what the Pope is saying, this may be what you would like, but this is your own invention, not a Church teaching by any stretch of the imagination.
The pope specifically instructs us that "we" are "permitted at any time to withdraw with impunity from obedience and devotion to those thus promoted or elevated and to avoid them as warlocks, heathens, publicans, and heresiarchs..." not "physically remove the imposter and replace him with a Catholic" - why do you make up such a grossly wrong thing as that?
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Stubborn,
why do you make up such a grossly wrong thing as that?
Because, they must, or their propositions fall.
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Check with someone fluent in Latin that you trust and realize the translation is not faulty. After the Protestant revolt he was keenly aware that a heretic could be elevated to the Chair. He took steps to prevent it.
No pope in his right mind is going to promulgate a teaching which remains in force forever, which permits or encourages anyone to remove him or any future pope from office, or to declare him to not be the pope.
The Church is not a democracy so it simply does not work that way - nor does any form of monarchical government on earth for that matter.
QUESTION: Why *wouldn't* a pope promulgate such a thing?
ANSWER: Because all it would take is one Richard Ibryani or one King Henry VIII or any other influential person or persons with a diabolical agenda to opine the pope a heretic, gather forces and have him declared a heretic and thrown off the Chair. IOW, because of the risk of bad people deposing a good pope.
This translation is more than faulty and there has to be parts missing.
Back then all collectively would see the situation today for what it is and have rejected our V2 imposters. If the world were Catholic we could indeed depose such imposters through force, because as Divine and Canon law teach a public heretic deposes himself. We would just do the physical removal and replace him with a Catholic.
This is not what the Pope is saying, this may be what you would like, but this is your own invention, not a Church teaching by any stretch of the imagination.
The pope specifically instructs us that "we" are "permitted at any time to withdraw with impunity from obedience and devotion to those thus promoted or elevated and to avoid them as warlocks, heathens, publicans, and heresiarchs..." not "physically remove the imposter and replace him with a Catholic" - why do you make up such a grossly wrong thing as that?
Then either Paul IV was out of his mind or you are wrong. I wonder which it is.
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Then either Paul IV was out of his mind or you are wrong. I wonder which it is.
Your needle is stuck in back peddle mode again.
First, I could be wrong and second, the pope was not out of his mind.
There are two other choices you left out: 1) that the translation was maliciously or mistakenly mistranslated *and* is incomplete and 2) that you are inventing a teaching which is non-existent anywhere in cuм ex - - -this one is a given.
Contrary to your NO thinking, nowhere in this constitution (or any other for that matter) is the pope giving permission, permitting, instructing or otherwise in any way shape or form teaching that a pope can be deposed or physically removed from his office - nor is the pope teaching that we are permitted to declare that the Chair vacant if we opine the pope to be a heretic.
You can feel free to prove me wrong by quoting the applicable part of the Constitution which states we are permitted to depose or remove the pope.
If the world were Catholic we could indeed depose such imposters through force, because as Divine and Canon law teach a public heretic deposes himself. We would just do the physical removal and replace him with a Catholic.
If the world were Catholic, the world would KNOW they cannot depose the pope, because Catholics know this - Protestants don't know it - you think like them - but Catholics know we are not permitted to do any such thing and Catholics know cuм ex is not teaching any such thing.
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Then either Paul IV was out of his mind or you are wrong. I wonder which it is.
Your needle is stuck in back peddle mode again.
First, I could be wrong and second, the pope was not out of his mind.
There are two other choices you left out: 1) that the translation was maliciously or mistakenly mistranslated *and* is incomplete and 2) that you are inventing a teaching which is non-existent anywhere in cuм ex - - -this one is a given.
Contrary to your NO thinking, nowhere in this constitution (or any other for that matter) is the pope giving permission, permitting, instructing or otherwise in any way shape or form teaching that a pope can be deposed or physically removed from his office - nor is the pope teaching that we are permitted to declare that the Chair vacant if we opine the pope to be a heretic.
You can feel free to prove me wrong by quoting the applicable part of the Constitution which states we are permitted to depose or remove the pope.
If the world were Catholic we could indeed depose such imposters through force, because as Divine and Canon law teach a public heretic deposes himself. We would just do the physical removal and replace him with a Catholic.
If the world were Catholic, the world would KNOW they cannot depose the pope, because Catholics know this - Protestants don't know it - you think like them - but Catholics know we are not permitted to do any such thing and Catholics know cuм ex is not teaching any such thing.
I have already said what you said above. Yet you claim I disagree with you. We can't depose him. He deposes himself. You fear SV so claim the OP is mistranslated. Easier to be comfortable with your lies than conform to the truth.
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But that is not what the pope is saying. What the pope is saying is, IMO confusing and illogical.
No. It is only "confusing and illogical" because you're Stubborn and don't wish to understand what it means and desire to have it mean what you want it to mean.
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But that is not what the pope is saying. What the pope is saying is, IMO confusing and illogical.
No. It is only "confusing and illogical" because you're Stubborn and don't wish to understand what it means and desire to have it mean what you want it to mean.
Correct. Perhaps we can say an Ave that he will can the grace to admit this both on this issue and on BOD. 1.2.3. go.
Ave Maria, gratia plena . . .
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But that is not what the pope is saying. What the pope is saying is, IMO confusing and illogical.
No. It is only "confusing and illogical" because you're Stubborn and don't wish to understand what it means and desire to have it mean what you want it to mean.
That's right, I am being stubborn because it in no way shape or form says we can employ secular authorities to physically remove the pope as YOU said it does.
You need to re-read it and read what is written. If you do, then you would be forced to agree with every one of the 6 items I posted rather than say the ridiculous thing you said about us being given permission to employ secular authorites to remove the pope - THAT is utterly ludicrous since the Constitution says no such thing.
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That's right, I am being stubborn because it in no way shape or form says we can employ secular authorities to physically remove the pope as YOU said it does.
It implies that a Pope who falls into heresy would no longer be Pope, and therefore, the secular authorities would be removing an imposter and not a true Vicar of God. It clearly teaches that a true Pope can fall into theological error but is silent on the question if a true Pope can fall into heresy, but if the latter does occur, such a man would no longer be Pope, assuming that he was a true Pope to begin with. Either way, the secular arm could forcibly remove such a heretic.
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You need to re-read it and read what is written. If you do, then you would be forced to agree with every one of the 6 items I posted rather than say the ridiculous thing you said about us being given permission to employ secular authorites to remove the pope - THAT is utterly ludicrous since the Constitution says no such thing.
Of course, it doesn't say we can use the secular authorities to "remove the pope". It says that we can use the secular authorities to remove "these same individuals thus promoted or elevated", i.e., those men invalidly promoted or elevated to the position because they are heretics.
But it does, indeed, clearly say that the faithful can employ secular authorities to remove a heretic from office. I do not agree with your six items posted--especially your claim that Pope Paul IV is "confusing and illogical". Just because you are confused and ignorant of the facts surrounding this bull does not mean that the pope is confused and illogical.
The meaning all of legislation, and cuм ex Apostolatus Officio is indeed legislation, must be interpreted according to the mind of the law-giver. Your re-interpretation of the legislation is akin to the way modern courts rule laws unconstitutional based on completely changing the clear understanding of the minds of those who originally wrote the founding docuмent.
To summarize the reason this Apostolic Constitution was enacted, I quote Mr. John Lane's excellent history of the case:
The background of cuм ex Apostolatus sheds abundant light on the principles it embodies. Ghisleri, as Roman Inquisitor, held Cardinal Morone suspect of heresy. And yet Morone was one of the leading candidates to succeed Paul IV. The situation was extremely worrying for both Ghisleri and for Pope Paul IV himself. What if the cardinals, after Paul's death, should choose an heretic as the next pope! cuм ex Apostolatus was the answer. It codified the constant tradition of Holy Church, which was that no heretic can validly exercise authority in Holy Church. This codification of the tradition of the Church had two effects. Firstly, it put on notice the cardinals who might think that Morone could be safely elected to the papacy. If they tried it, they could not be sure he would be universally accepted, and the bull made it clear that even if he was accepted by all initially, at any point in the future men could simply change their minds and refuse to adhere to him. Thus Michele Ghisleri and Pope Paul IV wrecked the hopes of certain cardinals of imposing an heretic upon the faithful. (To further ensure that Morone was not elected, Ghisleri took the dossier on Morone into the subsequent conclave, ready to reveal its contents if Morone's name should figure prominently in the first rounds of voting.)
Mr. Lane does not discuss the issue of deposing the putative pope, but he does give a background as to why the legislation was enacted and continues to be in force to this day. It is divine law that a heretic cannot be the pope, or indeed, hold any office of the Church.
Obviously, it does no good for you or I, today, to petition any secular government to physically remove Bergoglio from the Vatican since there are no truly Catholic secualar governments left on the earth. But the legislation still exists so that, should, in the unforeseen future, the Holy Roman Empire be re-constituted, the secular arm could, in principle, take action to restore order in the Church.
I understand the Realpolitic involved here. I understand that we do not have the political or military means to depose Bergoglio. But the original claim made was that the bull gave no authority, in principle, "to depose [one who is not Pope]". This is in error. But the second claim that the bull, "gives those with ears to hear the ability to acknowledge the fact," is indeed correct even if we cannot resort to the secular authorities.
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You need to re-read it and read what is written. If you do, then you would be forced to agree with every one of the 6 items I posted rather than say the ridiculous thing you said about us being given permission to employ secular authorites to remove the pope - THAT is utterly ludicrous since the Constitution says no such thing.
Of course, it doesn't say we can use the secular authorities to "remove the pope". It says that we can use the secular authorities to remove "these same individuals thus promoted or elevated", i.e., those men invalidly promoted or elevated to the position because they are heretics.
It does *not* say "we" can use secular authorities for anything, it says those already in office who wish to prolong their government and authority are permitted to use the secular authorities.
Plainly, it does not teach that "we" can do anything, certainly "we" cannot use secular authorities because is says right there that only those already in office who "wish to prolong their government and authority" against those who are trying to remove them are permitted to use them.
Read what it says:
To the greater confusion, moreover, of those thus promoted or elevated, if these shall have wished to prolong their government and authority, *they* shall be permitted to request the assistance of the secular arm against these same individuals thus promoted or elevated; nor shall those who withdraw on this account, in the aforementioned circuмstances, from fidelity and obedience to those thus promoted and elevated, be subject, as are those who tear the tunic of the Lord, to the retribution of any censures or penalties.
What this means is that the secular authorities can be called in by the *hierarchy already in office* if imposters attempt to take over, not that "we" can determine that imposters are in offices and call in the cops to remove the imposters, as you and presumably all Sedes say it means. That is not what it says.
I say your interpretation is ludicrous because first, that is not even Catholic thinking, second, that is not how the Monarchical Government of the Church (or any secular Monarchy for that matter) operates and third, no pope is going to promulgate his permission to allow his subjects to overthrow his office no matter the reason and no matter how strongly his subjects may want to - and cuм Ex is no exception since it in no way shape or form grants that permission to "us" or to anyone except those already in office who wish to remain in office and defend their office against heretical imposters.
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Like it or not Paul IV clearly affirms what Divine Law teaches - that a public heretic cannot legitimately claim ecclesiastical office. He knew of the possibility, after the Protestant Revolt, of a heretic claiming the papacy and he knew how incredibly devastating to the faith this would be for the entire world, despite the Church not being as filled with modernist bishops as they were when the V"2" "popes" took over. He did everything to prevent what happened since the election of John 23.
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Excellent THREAD.
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Like it or not Paul IV clearly affirms what Divine Law teaches - that a public heretic cannot legitimately claim ecclesiastical office. He knew of the possibility, after the Protestant Revolt, of a heretic claiming the papacy and he knew how incredibly devastating to the faith this would be for the entire world, despite the Church not being as filled with modernist bishops as they were when the V"2" "popes" took over. He did everything to prevent what happened since the election of John 23.
Like it or not, Pope Paul IV instructed us all that we are permitted to do about it - namely, popes may be contradicted. He explains and instructs us that we "shall be permitted at any time to withdraw with impunity from obedience and devotion to those thus promoted or elevated and to avoid them as warlocks, heathens, publicans, and heresiarchs."
He never at any time instructs "us" to call out the feds to have the scoundrels arrested or removed. Nor does he never instruct anyone that we are permitted to go around preaching in any way shape or form that the Chair is vacant via Divine Law or in anyway authorize anyone to go around promoting sedevacantism.
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In #6, it plainly states that the vote of any Cardinal who "has deviated from the Catholic Faith or fallen into some heresy: (i) the promotion or elevation, even if it shall have been uncontested and by the unanimous assent of all the Cardinals, shall be null, void and worthless;
But in #7, it states:
(iii) the Cardinals, even those who shall have taken part in the election of this very Pontiff previously deviating from the Faith or heretical or schismatical, or shall otherwise have consented and vouchsafed obedience to him and shall have venerated him;
Now, since the vote cast by "ANY" heretical Cardinal is "null, void and worthless", how is it that those same heretical cardinals did not invalidate Pope Paul IV's own election?
cuм ex was written in 1559, some 30 to 40 years after Luther's and King Henry VIII's split - certainly there was much chaos and confusion in those days, not unlike today - is it not reasonable to think that Pope Paul IV must have at least suspected that some members of his own hierarchy at least could have been guilty of deviating from the faith? - so how is it that his own election was immune from invalidity?
Sede's read the words of this Constitution but not the meanings. The words are strongly disciplinary and condemning, but when you read what it all means, you will find there are inconsistencies within itself and that this constitution no more supports sedevacantism than any other magisterial teaching - and I still say there is something wrong with the translation of this constitution.