Author Topic: Do you think there are many virtuous pagans?  (Read 2951 times)

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Offline Arvinger

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Do you think there are many virtuous pagans?
« Reply #45 on: August 13, 2016, 03:31:44 PM »
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  • Quote from: Ladislaus
    Quote from: OHCA
    In light of the creative spin by which LoT weaves EENS & BoD together, albeit amid screeching-grating-clanging-banging-and sparks and parts flying every which way, he may be able to grasp the grand reconciliation of the Vatican II documents with true Catholicism by way of Ratzinger's mental, verbal, aspiritual, and quantum gymnastics known as hermeunetic continuity.


    Yep, LoT's ecclesiology differs in no way from that of Vatican II.  There's little hermeneutic even required.

    And unfortunately many Traditional Catholic priests have similar ecclesiology as well, which has monumental implications for the Traditionalist movement as a whole. Almost everyone here critizices Bishop Fellay for pushing the SSPX towards deal with Rome. Honestly, I can at least partly understand him. He believes that Hindu can be saved without the Catholic faith and that people who die ignorant of Christ can be saved - if you hold such belief you are in a very difficult position in doctrinal talks about Vatican II with Rome, and eventually you might even come to believe that Vatican II can be reconciled with Tradition and the whole crisis is just about the New Mass and liturgical/discplinary abuses.

    Offline LittleFlowers

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    Do you think there are many virtuous pagans?
    « Reply #46 on: August 13, 2016, 03:52:02 PM »
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  • I think pagans can be kind people, but they are disobeying the First Commandment of the Big Ten. Hopefully they can come to the Cross.

    God bless


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Do you think there are many virtuous pagans?
    « Reply #47 on: August 13, 2016, 04:22:00 PM »
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  • Quote from: Arvinger
    ...and eventually you might even come to believe that Vatican II can be reconciled with Tradition and the whole crisis is just about the New Mass and liturgical/discplinary abuses.


    And you'd be absolutely correct.  In fact, if you believe that Hindus can be saved, then you believe that Hindus can be "within the Church" (since there's no salvation outside the Church).  Consequently, you believe V2 ecclesiology and everything else that flows from it.  No reconciliation or hermeneutic required.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Do you think there are many virtuous pagans?
    « Reply #48 on: August 13, 2016, 04:28:46 PM »
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  • Let's see.

    Church of Christ subsists in the Catholic Church.  Actual Members of the Church are the subsistent core, while also in the Church you can find various Hindus, Muslims, heretics, and schismatics.  Sounds like a profound explanation of this reality.  Check.

    We have "separated brethren".  Indeed Hindus and Muslims and heretics and schismatics are separated from us (because they do not share the Sacraments nor profess the faith) but they are brethren because they are within the Church.  Check.

    Ecumenism.  We're no longer talking about conversion but of coming into a greater fullness of truth.  Conversion is no longer binary.  Indeed if Hindus, Muslims, heretics, and schismatics are in the Church, it's not truly a question of "converting" them because they're already within the Church, but of opening their eyes to the full truth of Catholicism.  Check.

    Religious Liberty.  Since doing the will of God and following your conscience and your lights (even if erroneous) pleases God and is salvific, and since everyone has an objective right to please God and save his soul, then everyone has an objective right to follow his conscience and his lights (even if erroneous).  Check.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Do you think there are many virtuous pagans?
    « Reply #49 on: August 13, 2016, 04:31:29 PM »
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  • Quote from: Ladislaus
    Quote from: OHCA
    In light of the creative spin by which LoT weaves EENS & BoD together, albeit amid screeching-grating-clanging-banging-and sparks and parts flying every which way, he may be able to grasp the grand reconciliation of the Vatican II documents with true Catholicism by way of Ratzinger's mental, verbal, aspiritual, and quantum gymnastics known as hermeunetic continuity.


    Yep, LoT's ecclesiology differs in no way from that of Vatican II.  There's little hermeneutic even required.


    Yep, that's due mainly because LoE learns his ecclesiology from the Fr. Fentons and other 'well respected' 20th century, dogma refining theologians. These refiners of dogma are the ones that helped pave the way for V2 and they are his mentors. That's why his ecclesiolgy differs in no way from that of V2.

    It is their teachings that made it into the seminaries in the early 1900s and beyond - which is why so many SSPX and other trad priests share the same, or nearly the same V2 ecclesiology. As long as LoE remains a devoted student of the dogma refiners, I'm afraid he will continue to be a LoE.    
    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man." - Fr. Hesse


     

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