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Author Topic: Coptic Bishop for Netherlands attended TLM in Amsterdam  (Read 1166 times)

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Offline Maria Regina

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Coptic Bishop for Netherlands attended TLM in Amsterdam
« on: January 18, 2016, 03:38:39 AM »
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    Bishop Arsany (or Arsenios), the Coptic Orthodox Bishop for the Netherlands, attended today a Sung Mass  (1962 Missal) celebrated at the Sint-Agneskerk in Amsterdam, where a personal parish dedicated to the Traditional Latin Mass is under the care of the FSSP. He might not be the first Orthodox prelate to attend a TLM in recent years, but as far as I know he is the first one to do so while seated on a throne inside the sanctuary.


    http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2016/01/coptic-orthodox-bishop-attends-solemn.html

    Lord have mercy.


    Offline Nadir

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    Coptic Bishop for Netherlands attended TLM in Amsterdam
    « Reply #1 on: January 18, 2016, 03:50:05 AM »
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  • What's next? Concelebration?
    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
    Let it be what God has planned, His new Eden where You reign.


    Offline Maria Regina

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    « Reply #2 on: January 18, 2016, 04:00:57 AM »
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  • Quote from: Nadir
    What's next? Concelebration?


    Never. The TLM does not have concelebrations, correct?

    That is why the Ecuмenists want to do away with the TLM.

    Lord have mercy.

    Offline Nadir

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    Coptic Bishop for Netherlands attended TLM in Amsterdam
    « Reply #3 on: January 18, 2016, 04:38:28 AM »
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  • Neither used the TLM to have Orthodox bishops sitting on thrones in the sanctuary.  What's a little concelebration between ecuмenists? Definitely an ecuмenical act to allow him such a revered position, as if he is AOK. What message is it sending to the faithful? And to the Bishop? Obviously these FSSPers ARE ecuмenists.
    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
    Let it be what God has planned, His new Eden where You reign.

    Offline Nadir

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    Coptic Bishop for Netherlands attended TLM in Amsterdam
    « Reply #4 on: January 18, 2016, 08:10:55 PM »
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  • This is what comes of "going over to Rome" or being part of the conciliar church. I guess that FSSP have to toe the newchurch line.
    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
    Let it be what God has planned, His new Eden where You reign.


    Offline Maria Auxiliadora

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    Coptic Bishop for Netherlands attended TLM in Amsterdam
    « Reply #5 on: January 20, 2016, 08:50:32 PM »
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    I myself saw, in the years after 1988, how the return of communities which had been separated from Rome changed their interior attitudes; I saw how returning to the bigger and broader Church enabled them to move beyond one-sided positions and broke down rigidity so that positive energies could emerge for the whole.

    Pope Benedict XVI, March 10, 2009, Letter to bishops regarding lifting of the excommunications of the SSPX bishops
    The love of God be your motivation, the will of God your guiding principle, the glory of God your goal.
    (St. Clement Mary Hofbauer)

    Offline Centroamerica

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    Coptic Bishop for Netherlands attended TLM in Amsterdam
    « Reply #6 on: January 20, 2016, 10:14:42 PM »
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  • I saw this somewhere else and couldn't believe that Rorate Caeli was praising false ecuмenism and that other people are reposting it not seeing anything wrong with it. It is like it was an experiment to see how dumbed down modern "trads" are. It is really in your face, blatant, false ecuмenism. There is no difference between this schismatic heretic and the Jєωs or Mohamedans. Would Rorate report it if the FSSP let a Mohamedans into the sanctuary and to give conferences. The real question here is if the prelate received communion.

    For those who don't know, the Orthodox Coptics reject ancient Christian councils...

    Non-Chalcedonianism is a religious doctrine of those [false] churches that do not accept the Confession of Chalcedon as defined at the ecuмenical of Council of Chalcedon in 451. The doctrine contrasts with Chalcedonian Christianity, which accepts the doctrines of the first seven Ecuмenical Councils. Some denominations do not accept the Confession of Chalcedon, for varying reasons, but accept the doctrines of the previous council at the Council of Ephesus in 431.

    The most substantial non-Chalcedonian tradition is known as Oriental Orthodoxy. Within this tradition are a number of ancient [false] churches including the Coptic Orthodox Church of Alexandria, the Syriac Orthodox Church (sometimes referred to as "Jacobite"), the Armenian Apostolic Church, the Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church, the Eritrean Orthodox Tewahedo Church and the Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church.
    We conclude logically that religion can give an efficacious and truly realistic answer to the great modern problems only if it is a religion that is profoundly lived, not simply a superficial and cheap religion made up of some vocal prayers and some ceremonies...

    Offline Gregory I

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    « Reply #7 on: January 20, 2016, 10:29:14 PM »
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  • Uh, you do KNOW that the 17th century priests of the Roman Church used to say mass for the EASTERN ORTHODOX and the Armenians in the Peloponese with the approval of both THEIR bishops and the Armenian/Greek orthodox Bishops right? And it's funny because the Armenians are in communion with the Copts.

    Read the history people. Eustratios Argentis by Metropolitan Kallistos Ware.

    This isn't new.

    "Not only the higher authorities but the local population received the missionaries with great enthusiasm. “During the seasons of Lent and Advent”, a Jesuit priest relates, “…the preachers, on leaving the pulpit [of the Latin churches], are sometimes forced to go up again into those of the Greek and Armenian churches, to satisfy the desire which people have to hear the word of God… The missionaries often go to pay their respects to the [Greek] bishops and clergy, with whom we maintain a perfect understanding; the conversation is always on some religious topic, for several of them ask only to be instructed.” “The Greeks and the Syrians”, writes Père Besson in the middle of the seventeenth century, “open their houses to the apostolic men; they open even the doors of their churches and their pulpits. The parish priests welcome our assistance, the bishops beg us to cultivate their vineyards.”

    Not only that, we SHARED Common worship!

    "Instances of common worship and communicatio in sacris during the seventeenth century are so frequent that only a few examples can be mentioned here (the evidence is set forth in detail by P. Grigoriou, and by G. Hoffman in numerous articles). Some of the most striking cases are found in the Ionian Islands, at this time under Venetian rule. An anonymous Athonite monk of the sixteenth century has left a vivid description of the situation prevailing on Kerkyra (Corfu), where members of the two churches lived side by side on terms of the utmost friendship. While the monk himself disapproved strongly of what went on — he entitles his work ‘The Errors of the Corfiots, on Account of Which We Excommunicate Them’ — it is evident that on Kerkyra itself these acts of friendship were accepted as a matter of course. The Greeks, so the monk writes, receive communion from Roman priests and go to them for confession. The clergy of the two churches hold joint processions on Corpus Christi and on Holy Saturday, and even celebrate the Eucharist simultaneously in the same building, although at separate altars:

    “The Latins hold a procession with the unleavened bread which they consecrate and call the Holy Gift. In front walk the Jєωs, then the Greeks, and after them the Latins — all of them together dressed up in their holy vestments; they sing together and all become one.

    The Latins observe a festival in their cathedral in honor of a certain Arsenius, a local saint; and Greeks and Latins celebrate the Liturgy together in the same building, but at separate altars. The Greeks read the epistle first, and then the Latins, and the same thing happens with the Gospel. As for the people, both nations stand mixed up together in front of two altars, praying together and singing together…

    On Holy Saturday the Greeks and Latins assemble in one of the Latin churches and the priests of both sides together carry upon their heads the Epitaphion or Lamb, all together carrying the same Epitaphion, and they go with it to another church.” (Athos, Iviron, ms. 1340, quoted in Grigoriou, pp. 112-13)"

    You think a bishop simply sitting in on a Latin Mass is ecuмaniacal?! HA! Try living in the 17th century in Greece! You would be scandalized out of the country!
    'Take care not to resemble the multitude whose knowledge of God's will only condemns them to more severe punishment.'

    -St. John of Avila


    Offline Centroamerica

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    « Reply #8 on: January 20, 2016, 10:51:57 PM »
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  • So are you saying that denying Church Councils doesn't make one a heretic? Are you saying that the Coptic Orthodox are not heretics? Are you Catholic?

    And don't think that just because it happened before the Council then it was ok. It was largely the misdeeds of Catholics before the Council that led to the current crisis. Whether such and such an act happened in the 17th century has no bearing on the immutable doctrine of the Church. Heresy is always heresy and communicatio in sacris is still a sin. To take part in the prayers or to pray with heretics makes one a heretic. It's pretty cut qnd dry.
    We conclude logically that religion can give an efficacious and truly realistic answer to the great modern problems only if it is a religion that is profoundly lived, not simply a superficial and cheap religion made up of some vocal prayers and some ceremonies...

    Offline Gregory I

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    « Reply #9 on: January 20, 2016, 10:54:55 PM »
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  • Quote from: Centroamerica


    So are you saying that denying Church Councils doesn't make one a heretic? Are you saying that the Coptic Orthodox are not heretics? Are you Catholic?

    And don't think that just because it happened before the Council then it was ok. It was largely the misdeeds of Catholics before the Council that led to the current crisis. Whether such and such an act happened in the 17th century has no bearing on the immutable doctrine of the Church. Heresy is always heresy and communicatio in sacris is still a sin. To take part in the prayers or to pray with heretics makes one a heretic. It's pretty cut qnd dry.


    Certainly. The point is not to get bent out of shape. As St Thomas says, have a glass of wine and take a bath. What didn't break is then won't break us now. Jesus knows what is happening to his Church. Just because he is asleep in the boat doesn't mean he won't calm the storm.

    Just don't be scandalized.
    'Take care not to resemble the multitude whose knowledge of God's will only condemns them to more severe punishment.'

    -St. John of Avila

    Offline Maria Regina

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    « Reply #10 on: January 21, 2016, 01:27:22 AM »
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  • Quote from: Gregory I
    Quote from: Centroamerica


    So are you saying that denying Church Councils doesn't make one a heretic? Are you saying that the Coptic Orthodox are not heretics? Are you Catholic?

    And don't think that just because it happened before the Council then it was ok. It was largely the misdeeds of Catholics before the Council that led to the current crisis. Whether such and such an act happened in the 17th century has no bearing on the immutable doctrine of the Church. Heresy is always heresy and communicatio in sacris is still a sin. To take part in the prayers or to pray with heretics makes one a heretic. It's pretty cut qnd dry.


    Certainly. The point is not to get bent out of shape. As St Thomas says, have a glass of wine and take a bath. What didn't break is then won't break us now. Jesus knows what is happening to his Church. Just because he is asleep in the boat doesn't mean he won't calm the storm.

    Just don't be scandalized.


    Gregory, you confuse me.

    You are saying that we should not be scandalized when most of these Coptics, Greeks, and Latin Ecuмenists are Freemasons and Modernists?  They are neither sober nor watchful, but have sold their souls to the devil.
    Lord have mercy.


    Offline Gregory I

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    « Reply #11 on: January 21, 2016, 01:31:57 AM »
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  • Quote from: Maria Regina
    Quote from: Gregory I
    Quote from: Centroamerica


    So are you saying that denying Church Councils doesn't make one a heretic? Are you saying that the Coptic Orthodox are not heretics? Are you Catholic?

    And don't think that just because it happened before the Council then it was ok. It was largely the misdeeds of Catholics before the Council that led to the current crisis. Whether such and such an act happened in the 17th century has no bearing on the immutable doctrine of the Church. Heresy is always heresy and communicatio in sacris is still a sin. To take part in the prayers or to pray with heretics makes one a heretic. It's pretty cut qnd dry.


    Certainly. The point is not to get bent out of shape. As St Thomas says, have a glass of wine and take a bath. What didn't break is then won't break us now. Jesus knows what is happening to his Church. Just because he is asleep in the boat doesn't mean he won't calm the storm.

    Just don't be scandalized.


    Gregory, you confuse me.

    You are saying that we should not be scandalized when most of these Coptics, Greeks, and Latin Ecuмenists are Freemasons and Modernists?  They are neither sober nor watchful, but have sold their souls to the devil.


    Remember, to TAKE scandal is a sin. What I mean by not be scandalized is not allow our peace to be robbed. We have weathered other storms, let us put faith in the sleeping pilot of the Church. Let us be at peace, not with evil, but refusing to be moved into a passionate frenzy by it.
    'Take care not to resemble the multitude whose knowledge of God's will only condemns them to more severe punishment.'

    -St. John of Avila

    Offline Maria Regina

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    « Reply #12 on: January 21, 2016, 01:40:45 AM »
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  • Quote from: Gregory I
    Quote from: Maria Regina
    Quote from: Gregory I
    Quote from: Centroamerica


    So are you saying that denying Church Councils doesn't make one a heretic? Are you saying that the Coptic Orthodox are not heretics? Are you Catholic?

    And don't think that just because it happened before the Council then it was ok. It was largely the misdeeds of Catholics before the Council that led to the current crisis. Whether such and such an act happened in the 17th century has no bearing on the immutable doctrine of the Church. Heresy is always heresy and communicatio in sacris is still a sin. To take part in the prayers or to pray with heretics makes one a heretic. It's pretty cut qnd dry.


    Certainly. The point is not to get bent out of shape. As St Thomas says, have a glass of wine and take a bath. What didn't break is then won't break us now. Jesus knows what is happening to his Church. Just because he is asleep in the boat doesn't mean he won't calm the storm.

    Just don't be scandalized.


    Gregory, you confuse me.

    You are saying that we should not be scandalized when most of these Coptics, Greeks, and Latin Ecuмenists are Freemasons and Modernists?  They are neither sober nor watchful, but have sold their souls to the devil.


    Remember, to TAKE scandal is a sin. What I mean by not be scandalized is not allow our peace to be robbed. We have weathered other storms, let us put faith in the sleeping pilot of the Church. Let us be at peace, not with evil, but refusing to be moved into a passionate frenzy by it.


    Thanks.

    We can avoid being scandalized by persevering in prayer:

    St. Philotheus of Sinai, one of the desert fathers, wrote, and I paraphrased it:

    Sobriety is the Christian way of life that leads to the Kingdom of God. It is achieved though:
    1. Guarding our thoughts and our heart by maintaining custody of our senses;
    2. Limiting what we eat and drink; and
    3. Silencing our lips and mind so that we can glorify God in all that we say and do.

    Through sobriety, the window of our mind is polished so that the passionate is transformed into the passionless. When our passions and emotions are calmed, then we will not be scandalized.

    Text #3, page 326
    Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart
    Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer
    Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 (1952 first published)
    Lord have mercy.

    Offline Maria Regina

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    « Reply #13 on: January 21, 2016, 02:33:34 AM »
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  • Nevertheless, it is important that we do not visit Ecuмenistic events like this, attend their "Masses" or even post in their forums, as the poison of Ecuмenism and Modernism can slowly seep into our souls, sicken us, and lead to our spiritual death.
    Lord have mercy.