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Author Topic: Contradictory Principles in Vatican II and Prior Magisterial Teaching  (Read 858 times)

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Offline Gregory I

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  • "To use the words of the fathers of Trent, it is certain that the Church "was instructed by Jesus Christ and His Apostles and that all truth was daily taught it by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit."[12] Therefore, it is obviously absurd and injurious to propose a certain "restoration and regeneration" for her as though necessary for her safety and growth, as if she could be considered subject to defect or obscuration or other misfortune. Indeed these authors of novelties consider that a "foundation may be laid of a new human institution," and what Cyprian detested may come to pass, that what was a divine thing "may become a human church." -Mirari Vos- Pope Gregory XVI.


    "Christ summons the Church to continual reformation as she sojourns here on earth. The Church is always in need of this, in so far as she is an institution of men here on earth.  Thus if, in various times and circuмstances, there have been deficiencies in moral conduct or in church discipline, or even in the way that church teaching has been formulated-to be carefully distinguished from the deposit of faith itself-these can and should be set right at the opportune moment."  -Unitatis Redintegratio, Vatican II-

    -Heresy. The church cannot err in the expression of her dogmas. Vatican I teaches they are irreformable of their nature. Another heresy is that the Church always stands in need of renewal and reformation. Plainly false and contradictory of Pope Gregory XVI.

     "Now We consider another abundant source of the evils with which the Church is afflicted at present: indifferentism. This perverse opinion is spread on all sides by the fraud of the wicked who claim that it is possible to obtain the eternal salvation of the soul by the profession of any kind of religion, as long as morality is maintained. Surely, in so clear a matter, you will drive this deadly error far from the people committed to your care. With the admonition of the apostle that "there is one God, one faith, one baptism"[16] may those fear who contrive the notion that the safe harbor of salvation is open to persons of any religion whatever. They should consider the testimony of Christ Himself that "those who are not with Christ are against Him,"[17] and that they disperse unhappily who do not gather with Him. Therefore "without a doubt, they will perish forever, unless they hold the Catholic faith whole and inviolate." -Mirari Vos- Pope Gregory XVI

     "But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Mohammedans, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind. Nor is God far distant from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, for it is He who gives to all men life and breath and all things,(127) and as Saviour wills that all men be saved.(128) Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience." -Lumen Gentium- Vatican II

    Heresy: Religious indifference.
    'Take care not to resemble the multitude whose knowledge of God's will only condemns them to more severe punishment.'

    -St. John of Avila


    Offline Nishant

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    Contradictory Principles in Vatican II and Prior Magisterial Teaching
    « Reply #1 on: September 21, 2011, 05:38:51 AM »
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  • I have never understood why we need to scrutinize docuмents in an almost fundamentalist way. It is clear that the distinctions made are defensible ones, even if couched in unnecessarily flowery language. I simply do not believe that the whole Catholic episcopate altogether apostatised from the Faith.

    We both agree that the Church is perfect, spotless and unblemished as regards her divine side and also that she has a human side composed of fallible men who may act or live or speak uncharitably. It is the contrast of these two that is spoken of. Thus, UNITATIS REDINTEGRATIO also says,

    Quote
    For although the Catholic Church has been endowed with all divinely revealed truth and with all means of grace, yet its members fail to live by them with all the fervor that they should, so that the radiance of the Church's image is less clear in the eyes of our separated brethren and of the world at large, and the growth of God's kingdom is delayed. All Catholics must therefore aim at Christian perfection(24) and, each according to his station, play his part that the Church may daily be more purified and renewed. For the Church must bear in her own body the humility and dying of Jesus,(25) against the day when Christ will present her to Himself in all her glory without spot or wrinkle.


    So the intrinsic perfection of the Church is not the issue, but our own human failings in reflecting that splendor.

    Likewise, Lumen Gentium

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    Christ, present to us in His Body, which is the Church, is the one Mediator and the unique way of salvation. In explicit terms He Himself affirmed the necessity of faith and baptism(124) and thereby affirmed also the necessity of the Church, for through baptism as through a door men enter the Church. Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved.

    For the Church is compelled by the Holy Spirit to do her part that God's plan may be fully realized, whereby He has constituted Christ as the source of salvation for the whole world. By the proclamation of the Gospel she prepares her hearers to receive and profess the faith. She gives them the dispositions necessary for baptism, snatches them from the slavery of error and of idols and incorporates them in Christ so that through charity they may grow up into full maturity in Christ. Through her work, whatever good is in the minds and hearts of men, whatever good lies latent in the religious practices and cultures of diverse peoples, is not only saved from destruction but is also cleansed, raised up and perfected unto the glory of God, the confusion of the devil and the happiness of man. The obligation of spreading the faith is imposed on every disciple of Christ, according to his state.


    So the Church must do her part that God's plan be realized, namely proclaim the Gospel, and this even to those in good faith. The ultimate, in fact the only, this side of heaven, test of whether a person is in good faith or not is how he responds to the true Faith.
    "Never will anyone who says his Rosary every day become a formal heretic ... This is a statement I would sign in my blood." St. Montfort, Secret of the Rosary. I support the FSSP, the SSPX and other priests who work for the restoration of doctrinal orthodoxy and liturgical orthopraxis in the Church. I accept Vatican II if interpreted in the light of Tradition and canonisations as an infallible declaration that a person is in Heaven. Sedevacantism is schismatic and Ecclesiavacantism is heretical.


    Offline TKGS

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    Contradictory Principles in Vatican II and Prior Magisterial Teaching
    « Reply #2 on: September 21, 2011, 07:05:45 AM »
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  • The problem with Nishant2011's interpretation of Lumen gentium is that only the new conservative Catholics seem to interpret these passages in this way.  

    On the whole, the Conciliar bishops, by their words and actions, show that this docuмent of Vatican II does not require any sort of religious conversion to the Catholic faith and that Muslims and Jєωs can belong to sects that specifically and unambiguously rejects Christ and be saved.  

    Though not actually stated here, one might ask a Conciliar Catholic if the Church teaches that a one-month old child of a Muslim or Jєω who died would be saved.  Anyone who is listening to the Conciliar hierarchy would be forced to conclude that such a child would indeed be saved.

    I simply cannot understand how someone who must parse the docuмents to find a way to interpret them according to the traditional teachings of the Church can accuse those who read the docuмents as they are and in accordance with the Modernist hierarchy of scrutinizing the docuмents to find fault.

    No.  There is nothing in the Vatican II docuмents that is "clear" except that they are not Catholic.

    Offline Santo Subito

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    Contradictory Principles in Vatican II and Prior Magisterial Teaching
    « Reply #3 on: September 21, 2011, 09:52:15 AM »
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  • Gregory I,

    Your first two quotes are comparing apples and oranges. VCII nowhere uses the terms "restoration" and "regeneration". And even if they had used "restoration", so did St. Pius X! "Restore All Things in Christ".


    VCII nowhere states the doctrine of religious indifferentism.

    Offline Santo Subito

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    Contradictory Principles in Vatican II and Prior Magisterial Teaching
    « Reply #4 on: September 21, 2011, 09:55:59 AM »
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  • Quote from: TKGS
    On the whole, the Conciliar bishops, by their words and actions, show that this docuмent of Vatican II does not require any sort of religious conversion to the Catholic faith and that Muslims and Jєωs can belong to sects that specifically and unambiguously rejects Christ and be saved.
     

    This is Catholic teaching. The CAN be DESPITE belonging to false religions.

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    Though not actually stated here, one might ask a Conciliar Catholic if the Church teaches that a one-month old child of a Muslim or Jєω who died would be saved.  Anyone who is listening to the Conciliar hierarchy would be forced to conclude that such a child would indeed be saved.


    I would answer that is impossible to know for certain. However, obviously the child never reached the age of reason and never had the opportunity to be baptized. Therefore he still has original sin. So he would go to limbo or, since God is omnipotent, He could extraordinarily save the child since the child has no personal guilt.

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    I simply cannot understand how someone who must parse the docuмents to find a way to interpret them according to the traditional teachings of the Church can accuse those who read the docuмents as they are and in accordance with the Modernist hierarchy of scrutinizing the docuмents to find fault.


    Individual modernist prelates aren't authoritative. Only official docuмents giving official interpretations from Rome under the Pope are authoritative.


    Offline Nishant

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    Contradictory Principles in Vatican II and Prior Magisterial Teaching
    « Reply #5 on: September 21, 2011, 10:40:40 AM »
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  • Quote from: TKGS
    The problem with Nishant2011's interpretation of Lumen gentium is that only the new conservative Catholics seem to interpret these passages in this way.


     :wink: Well, about 90% of my post was not an interpretation at all, but merely the words of the same docuмents Gregory I had cited respectively. If one criticizes a docuмent, then it is fair to say, I think, one must represent its teaching fairly when doing so.

    I agree, so many people do not know and teach that the Catholic Church is necessary for salvation, and that they are bound to do this, out of love for God and neighbor, like all the Saints did, even to those who are in good faith. But the Council did teach this. And such actions as you mention, from whomever they be, I maintain, even if from the Pope, are no different, really from the scandalous action of our first Pontiff, St.Peter who, out of human respect, where the Judaizers were concerned, "was to be blamed", even led St.Barnabas astray, and needed to be "resisted to the face" by St.Paul. These are personal sins and failings, of otherwise great and venerable Apostles, and in this he was not to be imitated.

    "Never will anyone who says his Rosary every day become a formal heretic ... This is a statement I would sign in my blood." St. Montfort, Secret of the Rosary. I support the FSSP, the SSPX and other priests who work for the restoration of doctrinal orthodoxy and liturgical orthopraxis in the Church. I accept Vatican II if interpreted in the light of Tradition and canonisations as an infallible declaration that a person is in Heaven. Sedevacantism is schismatic and Ecclesiavacantism is heretical.

    Offline Gregory I

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    Contradictory Principles in Vatican II and Prior Magisterial Teaching
    « Reply #6 on: September 21, 2011, 07:51:40 PM »
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  • Vatican II plainly states that those who persevere in their religion with all sincerity may be saved.

    Same difference Santo.
    'Take care not to resemble the multitude whose knowledge of God's will only condemns them to more severe punishment.'

    -St. John of Avila