Author Topic: Contra Cekadam: A response by Fr Cekada  (Read 1709 times)

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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: Contra Cekadam: A response by Fr Cekada
« Reply #15 on: June 14, 2018, 10:50:07 AM »
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  • My point is that if one wants to make the argument, like Fr Cekada, that post V2 officials have lost their offices, then the proof must be VERY strong, with a consensus of theologians, and very, very little doubt etc.  Because the charges are grave and the implications of the church being pope-less and bishop-less are huge. 

    Fr Cekada points to Cum Ex as a 'strong proof'.  If Fr Chazal shows that Cum Ex's proof is not strong, or is debatable, then the default position is that V2 officials still hold their offices, because they do, in reality, still hold them.  Sorta like "innocent until proven guilty".  In the absense of an official Church process or procedure to remove someone from office, said person retains the office.  This is practical logic.  Fr Cekada is proposing a very unique, theoretical and extreme position.  Unless proof is undeniable, then we cannot act or accept measures which are separate from ecclesiastical due process.  The effects of such rash decisions lead to confusion, chaos and spiritual disarray.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Contra Cekadam: A response by Fr Cekada
    « Reply #16 on: June 14, 2018, 10:54:21 AM »
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  • My point is that if one wants to make the argument, like Fr Cekada, that post V2 officials have lost their offices, then the proof must be VERY strong, with a consensus of theologians, and very, very little doubt etc.  Because the charges are grave and the implications of the church being pope-less and bishop-less are huge.

    And the charges are grave and implications huge for claiming that someone is the Pope and yet continuing to operate outside of Communion with him, rejecting his Magisterium, etc.  So, what's the IMPLICATION, pray tell, of the Church being without a Pope if you claim that Catholics are free to just blow him off and to be out of communion with him?


    Offline Meg

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    Re: Contra Cekadam: A response by Fr Cekada
    « Reply #17 on: June 14, 2018, 11:34:45 AM »
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  • And the charges are grave and implications huge for claiming that someone is the Pope and yet continuing to operate outside of Communion with him, rejecting his Magisterium, etc.  


    What exactly are the grave and huge implications for those of us who claim that Francis is the Pope?

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Contra Cekadam: A response by Fr Cekada
    « Reply #18 on: June 14, 2018, 11:45:31 AM »
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  • What exactly are the grave and huge implications for those of us who claim that Francis is the Pope?

    To break communion with the hierarchy and Magisterium is no small matter.  The fact that you don't understand this tells me all I need to know about you.  You do realize, right, that refusal of submission to the Pope is the very definition of schism.



    Offline Meg

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    Re: Contra Cekadam: A response by Fr Cekada
    « Reply #19 on: June 14, 2018, 11:47:23 AM »
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  • To break communion with the hierarchy and Magisterium is no small matter.  The fact that you don't understand this tells me all I need to know about you.  You do realize, right, that refusal of submission to the Pope is the very definition of schism.

    So I'm a schismatic because I believe that Francis is the Pope? I'm pretty sure that you aren't supposed to call those of us who are R&R schismatics. We are not schismatics.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Contra Cekadam: A response by Fr Cekada
    « Reply #20 on: June 14, 2018, 11:49:10 AM »
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  • So I'm a schismatic because I believe that Francis is the Pope? I'm pretty sure that you aren't supposed to call those of us who are R&R schismatics.

    Read my post again, put on your thinking hat, and apply basic reading comprehension skills.

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Contra Cekadam: A response by Fr Cekada
    « Reply #21 on: June 14, 2018, 11:50:32 AM »
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  • Read my post again, put on your thinking hat, and apply basic reading comprehension skills.

    Okay, so those of us who are R&R are not schismatics, in your opinion?

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Contra Cekadam: A response by Fr Cekada
    « Reply #22 on: June 14, 2018, 02:35:10 PM »
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  • Quote
    To break communion with the hierarchy and Magisterium is no small matter.  The fact that you don't understand this tells me all I need to know about you.  You do realize, right, that refusal of submission to the Pope is the very definition of schism.
    Traditionalists reject V2 and the NOM, neither of which are required by the magisterium to be accepted under pain of sin.  Therefore, submission is not required, but only 'religious conditional assent'.  No traditionalist refuses submission to the pope.  We do refuse submission to our local bishops, but their authority is not the same as the pope, so it is a different scenario.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Contra Cekadam: A response by Fr Cekada
    « Reply #23 on: June 14, 2018, 03:28:05 PM »
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  • Traditionalists reject V2 and the NOM, neither of which are required by the magisterium to be accepted under pain of sin.

    Traditionalists are entirely out of communion with and not in submission to the purported hierarchy.  Stop it with the "pain of sin" nonsense.  No theologian has ever applied the "pain of sin" litmus test to distinguish different types of Magisterium.  With the exception of explicit anathemas, no pope has ever used the expression "under pain of sin" to qualify his teaching.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Contra Cekadam: A response by Fr Cekada
    « Reply #24 on: June 14, 2018, 03:39:20 PM »
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  • Any official teaching proposed by the Magisterium as doctrine MUST be held under pain of sin, by definition.  If one denies doctrine, they go to hell as a heretic.

    Such teachings which are not doctrine, such as the idea of limbo, do not have to be held to get to heaven, therefore the magisterium does not require doctrinal submission to this teaching.  V2 does not require doctrinal submission, as ALL of the popes have confirmed and all theologians interviewed about it have confirmed.  Therefore there's nothing to submit to.

    Your interpretation of the level of teaching authority of V2 is in error.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Contra Cekadam: A response by Fr Cekada
    « Reply #25 on: June 14, 2018, 04:18:11 PM »
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  • Any official teaching proposed by the Magisterium as doctrine MUST be held under pain of sin, by definition.  If one denies doctrine, they go to hell as a heretic.

    Such teachings which are not doctrine, such as the idea of limbo, do not have to be held to get to heaven, therefore the magisterium does not require doctrinal submission to this teaching.  V2 does not require doctrinal submission, as ALL of the popes have confirmed and all theologians interviewed about it have confirmed.  Therefore there's nothing to submit to.

    Your interpretation of the level of teaching authority of V2 is in error.

    So 99.5% of the Magisterium could theoretically be wrong ... according to you.


    Offline JPaul

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    Re: Contra Cekadam: A response by Fr Cekada
    « Reply #26 on: June 14, 2018, 04:55:35 PM »
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  • Okay, so those of us who are R&R are not schismatics, in your opinion?
    If you follow the notion of reading the council "in the light of tradition", and feel free to pick and choose what you accept and what you don't, you are acting according to a schismatic spirit, at the least. Being R&R, you are accepting a lot more than just the pope, and whether he is schismatic or heretical in his doctrine is another issue.

    Offline JPaul

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    Re: Contra Cekadam: A response by Fr Cekada
    « Reply #27 on: June 14, 2018, 05:05:07 PM »
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  • Quote
    We do refuse submission to our local bishops, but their authority is not the same as the pope, so it is a different scenario.
    In matters of the Vatican II doctrines, refusing submission to the Bishops is exactly the same as refusing the pope. in that they teach and agree with the pope on this, they are a one teaching authority, to which you are refusing submission.

    You can only kick the can so far down the road, before you have to deal with whether or not he has the authority of a pope.
    You have to stand and say that he does or he does not. It is the illusion that R&R has generated and maintains that you can put this question on hold indefinitely. To do so is not and honest way of being.

    I do not agree with the sedes on there ultimate goals and aims but at least they face this question honestly and answer it and live by that standard.  Calling sedes names and disputing them brings you no closer to your answer. It is only another reason to put off the inevitable reckoning.

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Contra Cekadam: A response by Fr Cekada
    « Reply #28 on: June 14, 2018, 06:13:05 PM »
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  • If you follow the notion of reading the council "in the light of tradition", and feel free to pick and choose what you accept and what you don't, you are acting according to a schismatic spirit, at the least. Being R&R, you are accepting a lot more than just the pope, and whether he is schismatic or heretical in his doctrine is another issue.

    You seem to be making an assumption that those who are R&R believe in accepting parts of the Council, and that to do so is schismatic. You have certain requirements for what is or is not schismatic, and you judge others accordingly.

    However, since we are in a Crisis situation in the Church, not everything is going to be black-and-white.

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Contra Cekadam: A response by Fr Cekada
    « Reply #29 on: June 14, 2018, 07:17:17 PM »
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  • And the charges are grave and implications huge for claiming that someone is the Pope and yet continuing to operate outside of Communion with him, rejecting his Magisterium, etc.  
    It's totally hypocritical to claim that he is the pope when they do not believe it themselves. One has to be honest with themselves, there's no way Bergolio is a pope, how that could be is a mystery to me, so I say I have serious doubts. The total answer is not coming from the Cekada's  or the R&R, they both have a niche business to protect.
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

     

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