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Author Topic: Contra Cekadam: A response by Fr Cekada  (Read 6136 times)

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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: Contra Cekadam: A response by Fr Cekada
« Reply #30 on: June 14, 2018, 08:07:18 PM »
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  • All of you who charge that R&R refuses submission to the magisterium love to speak in generalities and be non-specific.  You hold V2 as required for salvation when even the V2 authorities do not do so.  You claim schism yet V2 authorities say the opposite.  You claim to refuse the NOM is to be “out of communion” with new-Rome, yet such a term is modernistic, ambiguous and undefinable.  

    All of you should go to another site; not sure why you’re here except to whine and moan.  Unless and until you prove that one who holds the R&R view commits a sin, then at the end of the day, who cares if such a view doesn’t quite “make sense”?  Just because one can’t explain something fully doesn’t mean they’re wrong.  Traditionism, by nature, is a catholic living in a war zone, making the best decisions they can, based on the limited knowledge and training they have.  

    The V2 officials are devious snakes, who speak ambiguously, contradictorily and generally, in an effort to confuse - their greatest weapon.  One official will say one thing and another will say another, both claiming they agree.  In the face of such lies and ‘diabolical disorientation’ as Sr Lucy called it, one must act as they can, with ‘avoiding sin’ being the baseline measure of orthodoxy and keeping the faith.  If such actions by Trads are not sinful, then in the face of extreme duress and facing obstacles and events which are unique in all of Church history, I have no doubt that God will have the utmost mercy and leniancy on all of us in regards to our actions towards Roman officials, many of whom can’t be trusted nor do they deserve respect, though we still give it to their office.

    So, I say, your charges of schism and heresy and whatever else are short-sighted, without specifics and also based on circuмstances which do not exist anymore.  A soldier lost behind enemy lines, after his entire platoon is shot dead, is not charged with AWOL and thrown in prison for insubordination because he got lost and missed the helicopter ride out.  Circuмstances can alter what is required and what one’s duty is, under the law. Even canon law spells this out.  In the same way, lay folk and simple priests, who are living in a spiritual war zone, with no day-to-day leadship, nor guidance available from Rome, are given much leeway in making decisions, especially when the “generals” or “captains” of their army are traitors and infiltrators.  


    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Contra Cekadam: A response by Fr Cekada
    « Reply #31 on: June 14, 2018, 08:36:16 PM »
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  • Contra Cekadam by Fr. Francois Chazal - Print version (book)
    https://www.chantcd.com/index.php/Contra-Cekadam

    AVAILABLE NOW - $10 plus shipping.



    : Quidlibet :
    A Traditionalist Miscellany — By the Rev. Anthony Cekada

    My Response to Fr. Chazal’s “Contra Cekadam”
    Fr. François Chazal
    by Rev. Anthony Cekada
    FATHER FRANÇOIS Chazal is former member of the Society of St. Pius X who left the organization several years ago when the prospect of an SSPX-Vatican deal looked particularly likely, and with a number of other similarly-minded ex-SSPX priests, formed a loose association of priests known as “the Resistance.”
    The Resistance priests maintain they are carrying on the authentic teaching of SSPX founder Abp. Marcel Lefebvre, which was to “recognize” the Vatican II popes as true popes, but to resist on a case-by-case basis papally-approved teachings, laws and commands that the archbishop and others decided were evil or erroneous.
    This position is now generally referred to as “R&R” or “Recognize and Resist” — a label, by the way, that I myself coined in a December 2005 article in The Remnant. Several years ago, I circulated a video which summed up the position as The Pope Speaks: You Decide: Traditionalists Who Destroy the Papacy.
    As I and others have repeatedly pointed out, the R&R position simply cannot be reconciled with traditional Catholic teaching on the indefectibility and the infallibility of the Church. Once you say (as all traditionalists do) that the officially-approved post-Vatican II teachings contain error or evil, the only logical conclusion you can come to is that the men who promulgated them had no authority when they did so — sedevacantism, in other words. Otherwise, you wind up with a defecting Church.
    I made this argument in a 1995 article Traditionalists, Infallibility and the Pope (since revised in 2006), which has since then been widely circulated as a booklet (at least 30,000 copies) and on the internet.
    No one that I know of on the R&R side has, in all these years, published a credible refutation of this rather short work.
    When a correspondent of mine challenged Fr. Chazal to do so, Fr. Chazal produced a seven-part, thirty-nine page monograph entitled “Contra Cekadam,” which is now being circulated in installments on the internet.
    One would think that such a vast mountain of verbiage would require me to produce an equally prolix response. But no, Fr. Chazal simply missed the point of my argument, and wandered off into the bushes to talk about something else. I don’t feel any obligation to follow him there — or, as Bergolio might say, to “Accompany Fr. Chazal in his journey of discernment.”
    The following brief comments to a correspondent will suffice.
    •   •   •
    Thanks for sending along the Chazal docuмent. It is hardly, as Fr. Chazal seems to think, a point-by-point refutation of my argument in Traditionalists, Infallibility and the Pope.
    Fr. Chazal’s Contra Cekadam doesn’t even state the argument of the “Cekadam” in question, still less refute it. Here, for the record, is the argument I made in the booklet:
    • Officially-sanctioned Vatican II and post-Vatican II teachings and laws embody errors and/or promote evil.
    • Because the Church is indefectible, her teaching cannot change, and because she is infallible, her laws cannot give evil.
    • It is therefore impossible that the errors and evils officially sanctioned in Vatican II and post-Vatican II teachings and laws could have proceeded from the authority of the Church.
    • Those who promulgate such errors and evils must somehow lack real authority in the Church.
    • Canonists and theologians teach that defection from the faith, once it becomes manifest, brings with it automatic loss of ecclesiastical office (authority). They apply this principle even to a pope who, in his personal capacity, somehow becomes a heretic.
    • Canonists and theologians also teach that a public heretic, by divine law, is incapable of being validly elected pope or obtaining papal authority.
    • Even popes have acknowledged the possibility that a heretic could one day end up on the throne of Peter. In 1559 Pope Paul IV decreed that the election of a heretic to the papacy would be invalid, and that the man elected would lack all authority.
    • Since the Church cannot defect, the best explanation for the post-Vatican II errors and evils we repeatedly encounter is that they proceed from individuals who, despite their occupation of the Vatican and of various diocesan cathedrals, publicly defected from the faith, and therefore do not objectively possess canonical authority.
    If Fr. Chazal agrees with the statements in points 1 (the changes are evil) and 2 (and the Church, by Christ’s promise, cannot give evil/error), but he nevertheless still insists the Vatican II popes are true popes possessing authority from Christ, he maintains in effect that the Church of Christ has defected and that Christ’s promises are void.
    As for the rest, Fr. Chazal simply:
    • Recycles opinions on a heretical pope that were eventually abandoned after St. Robert Bellarmine.
    • Attempts to apply criteria pertaining to ecclesiastical crimes when sedevacantists maintain that the public sin of heresy, not the crime, is what prevents a heretical pope from obtaining or retaining the papacy.
    • Refloats the phony Adrian VI quote.
    • Repeats the Paul-vs-Peter canard [see Appendix at end of the post here] on fraternal correction for a moral fault, which does not solve the problem of the Church defecting wholesale by promulgating theological errors and evil universal laws.
    • In his treatment of Scripture as a “refutation” of sedevacantism, ignores St. Paul’s own assertion that he could in fact, “preach another Gospel,” for which even he himself would become “anathema.”
    • Recycles supposed incidents from history to demonstrate that there have been heretic popes before, but which incidents (a) are part of the standard arguments of protestants who reject papal infallibility, and (b) have been repeatedly refuted by Catholic dogmatic theologians.
    Fr. Chazal’s arguments on each of these points still do not get him out of the theological pickle that points 1 and 2 of my original argument put him in — the Chazalian equation that works out to:
    • Evil changes + true popes = defected Church.
    Good luck getting out of that one, Father Chazal!
    .
    Thought you might like to know, my finger was hovering over my laptop mousepad after selecting this thread and the mouse arrow pointer remaining in the same place on my screen after the thread came up was pointing exactly on the DOWNTHUMB icon, and my finger twitched without my knowledge and I saw the "3" turn into a "4" before my eyes. I did not intend to downthumb your OP but that's what the system recorded, nonetheless. It's a direct consequence of the thread selection icon under "Last Posts" being located in the same vertical zone (1" from right edge) where the downthumb icons are located for all the posts, and a swath from 1" to 1-1/2" from the right edge of the thread's window.
    .
    If only the thumb icon was active, not the down arrow or the digit count, this system error would not have happened.
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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Contra Cekadam: A response by Fr Cekada
    « Reply #32 on: June 14, 2018, 08:43:11 PM »
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  • No, it is most certainly not that simple.  I love how you think that claiming something and adding "It's that simple" somehow makes your assertion true and proven.
    .
    Oddly when flat-earthers do that you have no problem with it. Interesting. It's that simple.
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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Contra Cekadam: A response by Fr Cekada
    « Reply #33 on: June 14, 2018, 09:12:36 PM »
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  • According to cuм ex, it can be argued that St. Paul was an invalid Apostle since "before this date", he not only deviated from the Catholic faith, he persecuted those who held it.
    .
    And therefore, St. Thomas Aquinas, the acclaimed "Angelic Doctor" of the Church, who lived and died before cuм Ex came to pass, by referring to St. Paul repeatedly as "the Apostle" was repeatedly wrong, wrong, wrong, etc.
    .--. .-.-.- ... .-.-.- ..-. --- .-. - .... . -.- .. -. --. -.. --- -- --..-- - .... . .--. --- .-- . .-. .- -. -.. -....- -....- .--- ..- ... - -.- .. -.. -.. .. -. --. .-.-.

    Offline St Ignatius

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    Re: Contra Cekadam: A response by Fr Cekada
    « Reply #34 on: June 14, 2018, 10:14:57 PM »
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  • All of you who charge that R&R refuses submission to the magisterium love to speak in generalities and be non-specific.  You hold V2 as required for salvation when even the V2 authorities do not do so.  You claim schism yet V2 authorities say the opposite.  You claim to refuse the NOM is to be “out of communion” with new-Rome, yet such a term is modernistic, ambiguous and undefinable.  

    All of you should go to another site; not sure why you’re here except to whine and moan.  Unless and until you prove that one who holds the R&R view commits a sin, then at the end of the day, who cares if such a view doesn’t quite “make sense”?  Just because one can’t explain something fully doesn’t mean they’re wrong.  Traditionism, by nature, is a catholic living in a war zone, making the best decisions they can, based on the limited knowledge and training they have.  

    The V2 officials are devious snakes, who speak ambiguously, contradictorily and generally, in an effort to confuse - their greatest weapon.  One official will say one thing and another will say another, both claiming they agree.  In the face of such lies and ‘diabolical disorientation’ as Sr Lucy called it, one must act as they can, with ‘avoiding sin’ being the baseline measure of orthodoxy and keeping the faith.  If such actions by Trads are not sinful, then in the face of extreme duress and facing obstacles and events which are unique in all of Church history, I have no doubt that God will have the utmost mercy and leniancy on all of us in regards to our actions towards Roman officials, many of whom can’t be trusted nor do they deserve respect, though we still give it to their office.

    So, I say, your charges of schism and heresy and whatever else are short-sighted, without specifics and also based on circuмstances which do not exist anymore.  A soldier lost behind enemy lines, after his entire platoon is shot dead, is not charged with AWOL and thrown in prison for insubordination because he got lost and missed the helicopter ride out.  Circuмstances can alter what is required and what one’s duty is, under the law. Even canon law spells this out.  In the same way, lay folk and simple priests, who are living in a spiritual war zone, with no day-to-day leadship, nor guidance available from Rome, are given much leeway in making decisions, especially when the “generals” or “captains” of their army are traitors and infiltrators.  
    Even though I whole heartedly disagree with you on certain points... a big thumbs up on this post!  🖒


    Offline St Ignatius

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    Re: Contra Cekadam: A response by Fr Cekada
    « Reply #35 on: June 14, 2018, 10:23:30 PM »
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  • .
    Oddly when flat-earthers do that you have no problem with it. Interesting. It's that simple.
    :laugh2:

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Contra Cekadam: A response by Fr Cekada
    « Reply #36 on: June 15, 2018, 08:37:30 AM »
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  • You claim schism yet V2 authorities say the opposite.
    The V2 authorities, your local bishop and the popes have always said the SSPX is in schism. It is only recently that the B16 and Bergolio have toned it down, but the vast majority of diocese bishops still call the SSPX in schism.

    Not that anyone cares what they call us, as they are all heretics and schismatics from the true faith. 
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline JPaul

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    Re: Contra Cekadam: A response by Fr Cekada
    « Reply #37 on: June 15, 2018, 09:16:08 AM »
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  • Quote
    So, I say, your charges of schism and heresy and whatever else are short-sighted, without specifics and also based on circuмstances which do not exist anymore.  A soldier lost behind enemy lines, after his entire platoon is shot dead, is not charged with AWOL and thrown in prison for insubordination because he got lost and missed the helicopter ride out.  Circuмstances can alter what is required and what one’s duty is, under the law. Even canon law spells this out.  In the same way, lay folk and simple priests, who are living in a spiritual war zone, with no day-to-day leadship, nor guidance available from Rome, are given much leeway in making decisions, especially when the “generals” or “captains” of their army are traitors and infiltrators.  
    Are the docuмents of the council any less erroneous, heretical, and blasphemous today that they were in 1962? Is the new mass any more orthodox and less injurious to souls?
    Then circuмstances have not changed as to why the principles being involved should be abandoned or modified.

    One's duty under the law  is to oppose with all our might, these errors and heterodoxy in the Church and in our midst.
    That burden is not lessened by time or circuмstance.

    And you are correct in saying that there is no day to day leadership, in fact there is no substantial leadership at all. We are on our own and that is not the time to compromise on doctrine and the principles that are in use to preserve that doctrine and orthodoxy.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Contra Cekadam: A response by Fr Cekada
    « Reply #38 on: June 15, 2018, 09:25:46 AM »
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  • You hold V2 as required for salvation when even the V2 authorities do not do so.  You claim schism yet V2 authorities say the opposite.

    Straw man.  Nobody says that.  Only dogma  is STRICTLY-SPEAKING necessary to avoid heresy.  But one can commit other grave sins against the faith by rejecting lesser truths and lesser teachings of the Magisterium.

    You keep making stuff up about "pain of sin" and "required for salvation" criteria as requirements for submission to the Magisterium.  Those criteria are novelties ... which you pulled out of thin air to justify R&R.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Contra Cekadam: A response by Fr Cekada
    « Reply #39 on: June 15, 2018, 09:27:59 AM »
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  • .
    Oddly when flat-earthers do that you have no problem with it. Interesting. It's that simple.

    That's a blatant lie.  I made several posts specifically questioning oversimplifications made in certain flat earth arguments.  You just have some emotional problem with flat earth that makes you not be able to see that issue rationally.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Contra Cekadam: A response by Fr Cekada
    « Reply #40 on: June 15, 2018, 09:30:11 AM »
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    The V2 authorities, your local bishop and the popes have always said the SSPX is in schism.
    Firstly, any local bishop, or even archbishop is not a vatican official, they have no training or authority to condemn anyone a schismatic.  Any such condemnation requires due process which does not happen at the diocesan level, but only when roman officials are involved, whose job it is to study such circuмstances.  So any comments by local bishops, outside of saying that the 4 bishops are excommunicated (which rome has made clear...but has since recinded), are incorrect.  Even Bishop Hoyos, I believe, has said multiple times in public interviews that the sspx is not schismatic.  He has only ever said they are "not in full communion with rome" which phrase "full communion" is novel, ambiguous and imprecise.  Modernists at their best!

    In regards to roman officials, it depends on the reason for why they would label the sspx schismatic.  The only reason they ever bring up are the consecrations of '88.  New-rome has NEVER said that the masses, sacraments, etc are schismatic.  They only mention the 4 bishops and their 'disobedience'.

    So the sspx bishops are arguably schismatic, though they have never been formally called so by rome, so the argument is weak.  (If one assumes that there was not an 'emergency reason' to provide the sacraments, as allowed/encouraged by canon law, one could argue their consecratory act was schismatic.  But since there was an emergency reason, then that argument is moot.  The local bishops only made such extreme accusations of schism and excommunication to keep the "V2 faithful" from waking up - to shock them - so that the sspx wouldn't grow.  It was mostly a PR campaign to keep the sheeple in line.  V2 knows that the sspx's masses and sacraments aren't schismatic and has never formally said so.)

    The main purpose of the sspx (and tradition), i.e. to keep the Faith by practicing the pre-V2 religion, is not schismatic, only the 4 bishops are possibly schismatic.  BIG DIFFERENCE.
    And here's why the 4 bishops are not in schism, or why it doesn't affect the laity who attend the sspx:

    1.  SALUS ANIMARUM SUPREMA LEX - "The salvation of souls is the highest law".  This means that the Church makes very, VERY many allowances so that catholics can make it to heaven.  This is why She allows even excommunicated clergy to provide the sacraments, in danger of death, or when no one else is available. 

    2.  Speaking of the 4 excommunicated bishops (and even their priests).  The code of 1917 canon law allows for the providing of the sacraments, if there is no one else to provide.  Can trads receive the old rites and a non-indult TLM from their local diocese?  Nope.  So, the sspx (and all other traditional priests) are fulfiling a need and are allowed by canon law to do so.

    Canon 2261.2-3, 1917 Code of Canon Law: “… The Faithful may for any just cause ask The Sacraments or Sacramentals of one who is excommunicated, ESPECIALLY, IF there is no one else to give them (c. 2261.2).

    3.   ‘Necessity makes licit what is illicit.’  Pope Gregory IX:  ‘It is true that one sins against the rule who adheres to the letter and leaves aside the spirit’


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Contra Cekadam: A response by Fr Cekada
    « Reply #41 on: June 15, 2018, 09:37:19 AM »
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  • If on rare occasion one might find something that's off in a Magisterial teaching, you respectfully question it through the proper channels ... all the while maintaining a religious submission to the Magisterium in principle.  You do not set up Mass centers over and against the official hierarchy.  Not unless you have at least some positive doubts about their authority and/or their legitimacy.  Overall, however, the Magisterium must be regarded as substantially free from any serious error and infallibly safe.

    THIS is the Catholic attitude towards the Magisterium (Msgr. Fenton):
    Quote
    [Catholic theologians] all insist that even in this [non-infallible] portion of his ordinary magisterium the Holy Father has the right to demand, and actually has demanded, a definite and unswerving internal assent to his teaching from all Catholics.
    ...
    It might be definitely understood, however, that the Catholic’s duty to accept the teachings conveyed in the encyclicals even when the Holy Father does not propose such teachings as a part of his infallible magisterium is not based merely upon the dicta of the theologians. The authority which imposes this obligation is that of the Roman Pontiff himself. To the Holy Father’s responsibility of caring for the sheep of Christ’s fold, there corresponds, on the part of the Church’s membership, the basic obligation of following his directions, in doctrinal as well as disciplinary matters. In this field, God has given the Holy Father a kind of infallibility distinct from the charism of doctrinal infallibility in the strict sense. He has so constructed and ordered the Church that those who follow the directives given to the entire kingdom of God on earth will never be brought into the position of ruining themselves spiritually through this obedience. Our Lord dwells within His Church in such a way that those who obey disciplinary and doctrinal directives of this society can never find themselves displeasing God through their adherence to the teachings and the commands given to the universal Church militant. Hence there can be no valid reason to discountenance even the non-infallible teaching authority of Christ’s vicar on earth.
    ...
    It is, of course, possible that the Church might come to modify its stand on some detail of teaching presented as non-infallible matter in a papal encyclical. The nature of the auctoritas providentiae doctrinalis within the Church is such, however, that this fallibility extends to questions of relatively minute detail or of particular application. The body of doctrine on the rights and duties of labor, on the Church and State, or on any other subject treated extensively in a series of papal letters directed to and normative for the entire Church militant could not be radically or completely erroneous. The infallible security Christ wills that His disciples should enjoy within His Church is utterly incompatible with such a possibility.

    You need to read this over and over again, mediate about it, and pray about it.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Contra Cekadam: A response by Fr Cekada
    « Reply #42 on: June 15, 2018, 09:39:08 AM »
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    But one can commit other grave sins against the faith by rejecting lesser truths and lesser teachings of the Magisterium.
    More generalities which do not further the discussion...BE SPECIFIC.

    If you charge R&R (or the sspx, or whatever) with disobeying the magisterium, tell me exactly where they do so.  I've posted quote after quote (in other posts) where new-rome officials have said that V2 only requires 'religious conditional assent' and they admit it can be questioned.  You, however, say that one who does not accept V2 is "refusing submission".  

    They say that only CONDITIONAL submission is required.  You over-generalize and refuse to admit that "conditions" exist.  You erroneouly hold V2's magisterium to a higher teaching authority than new-rome does.  This is the point.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Contra Cekadam: A response by Fr Cekada
    « Reply #43 on: June 15, 2018, 09:49:07 AM »
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  • More generalities which do not further the discussion...BE SPECIFIC.

    If you charge R&R (or the sspx, or whatever) with disobeying the magisterium, tell me exactly where they do so.  I've posted quote after quote (in other posts) where new-rome officials have said that V2 only requires 'religious conditional assent' and they admit it can be questioned.  You, however, say that one who does not accept V2 is "refusing submission".  

    They say that only CONDITIONAL submission is required.  You over-generalize and refuse to admit that "conditions" exist.  You erroneouly hold V2's magisterium to a higher teaching authority than new-rome does.  This is the point.
    Pax, poor lad cannot say it plain on CI without breaking the rule, so he only mouths the same ambiguous saying: "the V2 authorities, your local bishop and the popes have always said - the SSPX [and basically all trads] is in schism" - as  LastTradhican correctly said.

    The V2 authorities would never be specific either, they all said the exact same thing poor lad says, and many hold outs who actually bought it ended up going NO. He's only parroting the V2 authorities and some of the 20th century theologians who helped usher in the NO.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Contra Cekadam: A response by Fr Cekada
    « Reply #44 on: June 15, 2018, 09:50:47 AM »
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    You do not set up Mass centers over and against the official hierarchy.  Not unless you have at least some positive doubts about their authority and/or their legitimacy. 
    Canon law allows priests to provide the sacraments in 'emergency situations' as I have already posted.  Those 1917 canons still exist in the 1983 code.  Positive doubts absolutely exist concerning their authority because they have 1) abused their authority by requiring catholics to accept heresy and liturgical illegalities, 2) their legitimacy is in doubt due to the changes in the consecration rites, 3) their orthodoxy is in doubt due to thier modernist teachings, their allowances of public scandal, their promotion of communistic, freemasonic and philosophical errors.

    It is clear that you have an agenda, and your arguments against the principles of R&R have been repeatedly shown.  "Oh", you say, "there are versions of R&R that I accept," yet you never explain these versions, you just continue to condemn the very foundations of traditionalism.  Based on your arguments, traditionalism is sinful, schismatic and should've never happened.  You understand all these concepts, but you prioritize them incorrecly and the results are staggeringly incoherant.