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Author Topic: conservative revolt brewing in the Vatican  (Read 2264 times)

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Offline Binechi

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conservative revolt brewing in the Vatican
« on: September 08, 2015, 05:01:38 PM »
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  • https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/a-conservative-revolt-is-brewing-inside-the-vatican/2015/09/07/1d8e02ba-4b3d-11e5-80c2-106ea7fb80d4_story.html

    VATICAN CITY — On a sunny morning earlier this year, a camera crew entered a well-appointed apartment just outside the 9th-century gates of Vatican City. Pristinely dressed in the black robes and scarlet sash of the princes of the Roman Catholic Church, Wisconsin-born Cardinal Raymond Burke sat in his elaborately upholstered armchair and appeared to issue a warning to Pope Francis.

    A staunch conservative and Vatican bureaucrat, Burke had been demoted by the pope a few months earlier, but it did not take the fight out of him. Francis had been backing a more inclusive era, giving space to progressive voices on divorced Catholics as well as gαys and lesbians. In front of the camera, Burke said he would “resist” liberal changes — and seemed to caution Francis about the limits of his authority. “One must be very attentive regarding the power of the pope,” Burke told the French news crew.


    Offline snowball

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    conservative revolt brewing in the Vatican
    « Reply #1 on: September 08, 2015, 06:18:02 PM »
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  • maybe married priests will break the camel's back.

    just a matter of time.


    Offline Clemens Maria

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    conservative revolt brewing in the Vatican
    « Reply #2 on: September 08, 2015, 07:57:48 PM »
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  • 50 years too late.

    Offline TKGS

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    conservative revolt brewing in the Vatican
    « Reply #3 on: September 08, 2015, 08:06:19 PM »
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  • So Cardinal Burke won't officiate marriages.  THAT will be the extent of his RESISTANCE.

    One has to wonder how many annulments he granted as bishop and archbishop of the various dioceses he has governed.  No one has ever suggested that he was "tight" with annulments.  I truly wonder if there was ever an application for annulment presented to him that he denied.

    Of course, accepting trans-gendered men into a convent is SOMETHING COMPLETELY DIFFERENT.  No liberal stuff there!

    Offline Marlelar

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    conservative revolt brewing in the Vatican
    « Reply #4 on: September 08, 2015, 09:39:15 PM »
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  • Too little too late.  The horse has bolted and the barn door is already shut.


    Offline Charlemagne

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    conservative revolt brewing in the Vatican
    « Reply #5 on: September 09, 2015, 12:45:05 AM »
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  • Today's Novus Ordo "conservatives" are yesterday's (i.e., pre-conciliar) apostates.
    "This principle is most certain: The non-Christian cannot in any way be Pope. The reason for this is that he cannot be head of what he is not a member. Now, he who is not a Christian is not a member of the Church, and a manifest heretic is not a Christian, as is clearly taught by St. Cyprian, St. Athanasius, St. Augustine, St. Jerome, and others. Therefore, the manifest heretic cannot be Pope." -- St. Robert Bellarmine

    Offline TKGS

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    conservative revolt brewing in the Vatican
    « Reply #6 on: September 09, 2015, 06:54:33 AM »
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  • Quote from: Charlemagne
    Today's Novus Ordo "conservatives" are yesterday's (i.e., pre-conciliar) apostates.



    Ratzinger once told an interviewer (I think it was the guy on EWTN) that he hasn't changed since the 1950s.  While he was considered to be liberal before Vatican 2, by the time he was elected to the anti-papacy, most people considered him to be an arch-conservative, yet he hadn't really changed his beliefs.  The whole of society around him had shifted so far that he seemed to be on the opposite side of the spectrum.

    I saw this first hand growing up.  As a child, the pastor at my parish was liberal on the issue of liturgical reform (though I was never aware of any liberalism on matters of faith).  He welcomed the initial reforms:  The use of English, Mass facing the people, simplification of many rubrics, reform of the Breviary, the use of lay-readers for the Epistle.  But as the reforms continued, he began to visibly be shaken.  He was very hostile to distribution of Communion while standing.  He was even more hostile to Communion in the hand.  He refused to remove kneelers as was done in throughout the archdiocese in most churches.  He positively detested Saturday anticipation Mass.  When I graduated high school, he was considered an old, stick-in-the-mud conservative by most people.  Yet, he was the very same man I knew who gave me my first Holy Communion.

    You are definitely correct on what you said above.  Today's "conservatives" in the Conciliar sect would have been excommunicated under Pope St. Pius X if they had publicly expressed the views they express today.

    Offline 2Vermont

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    conservative revolt brewing in the Vatican
    « Reply #7 on: September 09, 2015, 05:39:46 PM »
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  • "Conservative" revolt....you mean the same guys who agree with Vatican II?

    What a joke.
    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)


    Offline Matto

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    conservative revolt brewing in the Vatican
    « Reply #8 on: September 09, 2015, 05:51:25 PM »
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  • When one of these "conservatives" starts saying Vatican II and the Novus Ordo Mass must be condemned, let me know.
    R.I.P.
    Please pray for the repose of my soul.

    Offline 2Vermont

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    conservative revolt brewing in the Vatican
    « Reply #9 on: September 09, 2015, 05:58:08 PM »
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  • Quote from: Matto
    When one of these "conservatives" starts saying Vatican II and the Novus Ordo Mass must be condemned, let me know.


    Exactly.
    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

    Offline Charlemagne

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    conservative revolt brewing in the Vatican
    « Reply #10 on: September 09, 2015, 09:23:43 PM »
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  • Quote from: Matto
    When one of these "conservatives" starts saying Vatican II and the Novus Ordo Mass must be condemned, let me know.


    You can rest easy knowing you'll never be bothered, because that'll never happen.
    "This principle is most certain: The non-Christian cannot in any way be Pope. The reason for this is that he cannot be head of what he is not a member. Now, he who is not a Christian is not a member of the Church, and a manifest heretic is not a Christian, as is clearly taught by St. Cyprian, St. Athanasius, St. Augustine, St. Jerome, and others. Therefore, the manifest heretic cannot be Pope." -- St. Robert Bellarmine


    Offline Matto

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    conservative revolt brewing in the Vatican
    « Reply #11 on: September 09, 2015, 09:26:09 PM »
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  • Quote from: Charlemagne
    Quote from: Matto
    When one of these "conservatives" starts saying Vatican II and the Novus Ordo Mass must be condemned, let me know.


    You can rest easy knowing you'll never be bothered, because that'll never happen.

    Well, some believe the crisis will end and that this is not the end of the world. If the crisis does end then there will be good bishops and even good Popes again.
    R.I.P.
    Please pray for the repose of my soul.

    Offline 2Vermont

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    conservative revolt brewing in the Vatican
    « Reply #12 on: September 10, 2015, 08:03:24 AM »
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  • Quote from: Matto
    Quote from: Charlemagne
    Quote from: Matto
    When one of these "conservatives" starts saying Vatican II and the Novus Ordo Mass must be condemned, let me know.


    You can rest easy knowing you'll never be bothered, because that'll never happen.

    Well, some believe the crisis will end and that this is not the end of the world. If the crisis does end then there will be good bishops and even good Popes again.


    There certainly is a part of me that hopes and prays that God will enlighten these "conservative" bishops beyond their most recent concerns over the Synod. Maybe, just maybe, the Synod will work in our favor and these bishops will finally see the light.

    I see Novus Ordo Watch has posted an article about these three.  I haven't read it all yet but:

    http://www.novusordowatch.org/wire/index.htm#.VfF_wVPovm6

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

    Offline Neil Obstat

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    conservative revolt brewing in the Vatican
    « Reply #13 on: September 14, 2015, 10:55:43 AM »
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  • Quote from: TKGS
    Quote from: Charlemagne
    Today's Novus Ordo "conservatives" are yesterday's (i.e., pre-conciliar) apostates.

    Ratzinger once told an interviewer (I think it was the guy on EWTN) that he hasn't changed since the 1950s.  While he was considered to be liberal before Vatican 2, by the time he was elected to the anti-papacy, most people considered him to be an arch-conservative, yet he hadn't really changed his beliefs.  The whole of society around him had shifted so far that he seemed to be on the opposite side of the spectrum.

    I saw this first hand growing up.  As a child, the pastor at my parish was liberal on the issue of liturgical reform (though I was never aware of any liberalism on matters of faith).  He welcomed the initial reforms:  The use of English, Mass facing the people, simplification of many rubrics, reform of the Breviary, the use of lay-readers for the Epistle.  But as the reforms continued, he began to visibly be shaken.  He was very hostile to distribution of Communion while standing.  He was even more hostile to Communion in the hand.  He refused to remove kneelers as was done in throughout the archdiocese in most churches.  He positively detested Saturday anticipation Mass.  When I graduated high school, he was considered an old, stick-in-the-mud conservative by most people.  Yet, he was the very same man I knew who gave me my first Holy Communion.

    You are definitely correct on what you said above.  Today's "conservatives" in the Conciliar sect would have been excommunicated under Pope St. Pius X if they had publicly expressed the views they express today.


    It's important for us to keep this in mind because when we hear "conservative" in the MSM we should translate the word for ourselves before we would understand the message more accurately.  

    There has been a complete spectrum of transition over 3 generations bringing us to the stark insanity of today compared to the time of the early 20th century.  What kind of family could produce a boy who, when he becomes a father at 15 and then 2 years later is walking with his own son near a pond, attempts to push the child into the water trying to drown him in the presence of the child's mother who is pregnant, because the 17 year-old father wants to 'make room' in the house for the new baby on the way?  Yet this was in the news just 2 weeks ago.  

    I have been saying for years that we ought to keep a handle on what's going on and all the changes taking place, because there will come a day when our grandchildren or great-grandchildren will sit at our knee and ask us how things could have changed so much and how the church of Pope St. Pius X could have become what they see in their own time.  We need to be able to answer that question for our progeny.

    How could it have happened to Merry Old England?  The Faith of our Fathers had been quite strong in the middle ages, but then something changed and corruption set in, until the monasteries were pillaged and their property confiscated and their infirm inhabitants sent into the streets to become the beginning of rampant poverty in the big cities like London.  The King and his followers broke away from Rome and formed what they called 'The Church of England' and they've never looked back for 500 years.  How could that have happened?  Well, we're seeing it happen worldwide now, and it's the same story.  

    The arch-liberals at the time the changes begin become so-called arch-conservatives within 3 generations, but they're objectively the same arch-liberals that they were before the revolution took hold.  Their views have not changed at all, but the popular outlook on what it means to be 'catholic' has morphed into something else.

    The rank and file Catholics of the 15th century kept going to church in the 16th century and the gradual changes didn't really look like a 'new religion' to them, and they thought they were still Catholic, even if the word "Catholic" was no longer used.  

    This time around, the liberals have managed to keep the word "Catholic" even though they've gutted the substance.  Good priests of the 1920's if they were still alive, would say the hierarchy in office today are the ilk of the heretics that they saw condemned by Pope St. Pius X in his time and expelled from seminaries when they refused to take the Oath Against Modernism.  

    In point of comparison, at least the heretics of 1 century ago were honest enough to admit that they took umbrage with the contents of the Oath.   Now, they dare to look you in the face and tell you that it's all the same thing and it doesn't matter.  They've dared to cross the line and say that a thing can BE and it can also NOT BE at the same time.  

    2,400 (two thousand, four hundred) years ago the sound thinkers of Greece all agreed that when the principle of non-contradiction would be denied, it would be the utter end of all sound thinking.  But under the pontificate of Benedict XVI, we have been force-fed with his 'hermeneutic of continuity' which 'teaches' this very prime heresy, the denial of the principle of non-contradiction.  

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