Author Topic: Confirmation of Desire, COD: smells like fish. (Read 1126 times)

crossbro · « **on:** April 02, 2014, 08:07:45 AM »

Quote

Theologians have traditionally maintained the existence of “Confirmation of desire,” meaning that one, in real necessity, could obtain the grace of this Sacrament by virtue of the desire for Confirmation which cannot be presently received, much as in the case of “Baptism of desire.” Saint Thomas asserted that Baptism of desire would need to precede Confirmation of desire, given the preparatory role in which the former has in relation to the latter.

COD smells like fish

Ladislaus · « **Reply #1 on:** April 02, 2014, 08:09:20 AM »

HOOD = Holy Orders of Desire

crossbro · « **Reply #2 on:** April 02, 2014, 08:09:54 AM »

Next they will be pronouncing Marriage of Desire or MOD. This will be the perfect out for the gαy lobby.

They will no longer be sodomites but soMODites.

crossbro · « **Reply #3 on:** April 02, 2014, 08:11:42 AM »

Quote from: Ladislaus

HOOD = Holy Orders of Desire

That is a good one.

You can start calling me Father Crossbro, HOOD.

bowler · « **Reply #4 on:** April 02, 2014, 09:16:45 AM »

Quote from: crossbro

Quote
Theologians have traditionally maintained the existence of “Confirmation of desire,” meaning that one, in real necessity, could obtain the grace of this Sacrament by virtue of the desire for Confirmation which cannot be presently received, much as in the case of “Baptism of desire.” Saint Thomas asserted that Baptism of desire would need to precede Confirmation of desire, given the preparatory role in which the former has in relation to the latter.

COD smells like fish

That quote comes from a "prestigious Catholic educational" website, which includes Karl Keating and at least one rabbi. You'll find that everything that they teach about salvation is in line with what ALL the BODers here on CI believe. The traditionalist BODers are like the woman who is "partnered for life" to one man, and she complains about all the women who are "promiscuous" and have many "friends".The Trad BODer believes that people can be saved who have no explicit desire to be baptized, martyred, or to be a Catholic, nor belief in Christ and the Trinity, so do the Novus Ordo BODers, they complain about the liberal Novus Ordo BODer, when the only difference between the two is that the N.O. BODers quote also Vatican II sources and popes.:

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Ladislaus · « **Reply #5 on:** April 02, 2014, 09:32:42 AM »

Quote from: crossbro

Quote from: Ladislaus
HOOD = Holy Orders of Desire

That is a good one.

You can start calling me Father Crossbro, HOOD.

I'd ask you to hear my Confession, Father C, except that since I already desired it I don't need to go anymore.

Yeah, it's been my argument about how Baptism differs from Confession. Baptism, Confirmation, and Holy Orders are character Sacraments and the character is essential to what the Sacrament is and what it does. In each case, the character DOES something, has some EFFECT. BoDers would reduce the character to some meaningless "badge of honor", the ONLY effect of which is to render the Sacrament of Baptism unrepeatable, a mark of some kind which some people in heaven have and some don't. St. Gregory nαzιanzen (whom BoDers ignore) said that the "seal" (character) and "illumination" (supernatural faculty) are essential for salvation and that's why he rejected BoD (explicitly).

What does Holy Orders character do? It gives the person's soul an additional conformity with Christ so that the man can act in persona Christi. Baptismal Character also creates a lesser degree of conformity with Christ so that God sees the soul as if it were His Son, in the "spirit of adoption". We are thereby admitted into the inner life of the Holy Trinity, as members of the family of the Holy Trinity ... because we then have the likeness of the Son. Sacramental character bestows "faculties" or "potencies" or "powers" upon the soul.

Baptismal character gives people the supernatural faculties.

People have forgotten what "supernatural" means. God created human beings with natural faculties, including an intellect whereby we can grasp natural truths (such as the existence of God). But we do not have the supernatural faculties whereby we can grasp with our intellect supernatural truths and be able in the beatific vision to see God as He is. That is not within our power in so far as our created natures go. By way the character, we receive the supernatural faculty (when faith disappears upon death) to see God as He is. Without the Baptismal character, we do not have this capability. Period. End of story. That's why the OT just couldn't enter heaven despite being in a state of grace and justification. It's why St. Joseph could not enter heaven despite his holiness.

None of the BoDers can possibly understand why Our Lord referred to St. John the Baptist as the greatest man born of woman but lesser than the least in the Kingdom of God. THAT is what Our Lord meant. Despite all his goodness and holiness, none of that can compare to entry into the supernatural life of the Holy Trinity. So without this "illumination" (supernatural faculty) and "seal" (character) ... as per St. Gregory ("The Theologian") nαzιanzen, we cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #6 on:** April 02, 2014, 09:40:04 AM »

Quote from: St. Gregory nαzιanz

Of those who fail to be baptized some are utterly animal and bestial, according to whether they are foolish or wicked. This, I think, they must add to their other sins, that they have no reverence for this gift, but regard it as any other gift, to be accepted if given them, or neglected if not given them. Others know and honor the gift; but they delay, some out of carelessness, some because of insatiable desire. Still others are not able to receive it, perhaps because of infancy, or some perfectly involuntary circuмstance which prevents them from receiving the gift, even if they desire it ... If you were able to judge a man who intends to commit murder, solely by his intention and without any act of murder, then you could likewise reckon as baptized one who desired Baptism, without having received Baptism. But, since you cannot do the former, how can you do the latter? I cannot see it. If you prefer, we will put it like this: if in your opinion desire has equal power with actual Baptism, then make the same judgment in regard to glory. You will then be satisfied to long for glory, as if that longing itself were glory. Do you suffer any damage by not attaining the actual glory, as long as you have a desire for it?

Quote from: St. John Chrysostom

Weep for the unbelievers; weep for those who differ in nowise from them, those who depart hence without the illumination, without the seal! They indeed deserve our wailing, they deserve our groans; they are outside the Palace, with the culprits, with the condemned: for, ‘Verily I say unto you, Except a man be born again of water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of Heaven.

bowler · « **Reply #7 on:** April 02, 2014, 09:50:23 AM »

Quote from: Cantarella

There is absolutely no salvation for any human being outside actual baptized membership in the Roman Catholic Church.

Here it is clearly dogmatically declared:

Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, Constitution 1, 1215, ex cathedra: “There is indeed one universal Church of the faithful, outside of which nobody at all is saved, in which Jesus Christ is both priest and sacrifice.”

Even the catechumen are not part of the faithful, let alone what the BODers believe that anyone can be saved even if they have no explicit desire to be baptized, martyred, or mad a Catholic, and they have no belief in Christ and the Trinity.

Pope Eugene IV, The Council of Florence, “Exultate Deo,” Nov. 22, 1439, ex cathedra: “Holy baptism, which is the gateway to the spiritual life, holds the first place among all the sacraments; through it we are made members of Christ and of the body of the Church. And since death entered the universe through the first man, ‘unless we are born again of water and the Spirit, we cannot,’ as the Truth says, ‘enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:5]. The matter of this sacrament is real and natural water.”

The BODers say that those two quotes (and all the other dogmatic decrees on EENS & Baptism) do not mean what they say, and they go all the way to say that they really mean that anyone can be saved even if they have no explicit desire to be baptized, martyred, or mad a Catholic, and they have no belief in Christ and the Trinity.

Quote

From LaGrange's book Life Everlasting, under the chapter "The Number of The Elect" is the following:

..."Further, among non-Christians (Jєωs, Mohammedans, pagans) there are souls which are elect. Jєωs and Mohammedans not only admit monotheism, but retain fragments of promitive revelation and of Mosaic revelation. They believe in a God who is a supernatural rewarder, and can thus, with the aid of grace, make an act of contrition. And even for pagans, who live in invincible, involuntary ignorance of the true religion, and who still attempt to observe the natural law, supernatural aids are offered, by means known to God. These, as Pius IX says, can arrive at salvation. God never commands the impossible. To him who does what is in his power God does not refuse grace."

How am I to understand the above paragraph in light of Extra Ecclesiam Nullus...?

clare · « **Reply #8 on:** April 02, 2014, 10:30:41 AM »

Quote

“Confirmation of desire,” meaning that one, in real necessity, could obtain the grace of this Sacrament by virtue of the desire for Confirmation which cannot be presently received...

I've never heard of that before. Besides, since when did the salvation of someone in danger of death depend on being confirmed? It is an important sacrament, imprints an indelible character, and increases grace and glory, but you can be saved without it.

Besides no one ever claimed BOD imprinted an indelible character, so COD (if such a thing exists) isn't likely to either.

Cantarella · « **Reply #9 on:** April 02, 2014, 10:56:25 AM »

Not surprising. When you start adding subjective and invisible elements to the very well established Church that Jesus Christ founded, then we arrive in a very sorry state of affairs where "everything goes".

However I don't think that there will be more fuzz about "COD" or even "HOOD", since remember, it is BOD the only loophole that permits salvation for those outside the Church. The enemies of the Faith seek to prove that the sacrament of Baptism is not necessary for salvation and therefore, that there is salvation outside the church. It is pretty obvious that revealed infallible dogmas are applicable for all time, not subjective to interpretation which contradict the obvious: that unless a man is a visible member of the visible Church on earth, subject in spiritual matters to the pope visible reigning, he is not in the path of salvation.

Once it is demonstrated that BOD was never actually endowed by God, invincible ignorance will inevitably lose any rational standing as a shortcut to eternal bliss. Remember, the discussion is not about BOD but invincible ignorance and denial of the salutary dogma EENS, which is key part of the Modernist agenda. Modernists will, at least in public, affirm the words of the defined dogmas. However, they will teach a meaning that is different from what the words literally say and mean. This is done in a subtle, gentle, sneaky way.

EENS is the only position which the triumphant masonic forces cannot and will not tolerate. Think about it, they aim for a one world church under the control of one world government so the Catholic church must be cut down, and how they can do that? by selling the idea that not matter what religion you belong to, you still can be saved. Hello, indifferentism! which is actually condemned as a part of the heresy of Modernism.

It is a real shame that Church leaders no longer proclaim the very reason for which Christ founded the Church, which was to reveal the "one and only path to salvation". Her most fundamental reason for being.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #10 on:** April 02, 2014, 11:58:24 AM »

Most Catholics don't understand what Confirmation is, what it does, and how it works on the soul, so they reduce the character of Confirmation to just a non-repeatability mark. But the character in Confirmation is essential to to the effect of the Sacrament. It is a faculty and a CHANNEL of grace whereby the Holy Spirit reaches out from the indwelling of the Holy Trinity in the higher faculties to work upon restoring the entire fallen nature of man. It is not just a set of graces; it is a channel of grace for ongoing activity. In Baptism the indwelling of the Holy Trinity becomes possible, but this indwelling doesn't heal the other effects of Original Sin, namely the fact that the rest of human nature outside of the higher faculties has been damaged and fallen away from subjection to the higher faculties. That's why the fruits of confirmation are the increases in these lower-level (non-theological virutes). Just as Baptism restores the theological virtues (faith, hope, and charity) by granting the faculty in the soul to receive these, Confirmation is a channel of grace that fortifies the non-theological virtues (thus the fruits of the Holy Spirit enumerated in catechisms regarding Confirmation).

Whenever God reaches out from His supernatural life into nature, and seeks to extend into nature, and, as it were, to spill out from within His supernatural life and draw nature with a supernatural embrace back into His supernatural life, that action is attributed in Sacred Scripture to the activity of the Holy Spirit. (cf. Creation and the conception of Our Lord, etc.) So, via Confirmation and the channel of grace provided by its character, God reaches out from within the Holy Trinity dwelling within the soul via its supernatural faculties (made possible by the character of Baptism), reaches out to the REST of our nature in an embrace to draw it back into an almost supernatural state and to supernaturalize, as it were, the rest of our human nature. That's why confirmation is so important.

It is the channel and conduit for ACTUAL graces, just as the Baptismal character is the channel and conduit for sanctifying grace.