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Author Topic: Confessional Jurisdiction  (Read 2024 times)

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Offline Ferdi

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Confessional Jurisdiction
« on: August 31, 2022, 07:32:13 PM »
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  • A while ago I came across this work by Eric Hoyle, including the longer study linked at the bottom of the first page: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxchIU3wZYCIcVlPdktSYlEzVnM/view?resourcekey=0-SVar7MlHMrb9-erf0M5tuQ

    Obviously these are quite long PDFs, but I was wondering whether anyone else had read them or could critique them. Are there any objections which are not addressed? (the objections are in the longer study, not the shorter PDF linked above).
    I myself am struggling to find decent counter-arguments, albeit I am much less well-read and haven't read any of the theologians commonly cited in these discussions.


    Offline Cryptinox

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    Re: Confessional Jurisdiction
    « Reply #1 on: September 01, 2022, 12:01:45 AM »
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  • This issue has also been concerning me.


    Offline augustineeens

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    Re: Confessional Jurisdiction
    « Reply #2 on: September 01, 2022, 12:36:07 AM »
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  • You may find this link helpful: https://schismatic-home-aloner.com/no-jurisdiction-position-audios/

    Also, Eric Hoyle is a liar and an apostate: https://schismatic-home-aloner.com/eric-hoyle-epic-apostasy/

    A good question to ask these people is, did St. Vincent Ferrer have jurisdiction? If they are consistent, they will say no.
    "Know you not that the friendship of this world is the enemy of God? Whosoever therefore will be a friend of this world, becometh an enemy of God." (James 4:4)

    Offline Cryptinox

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    Re: Confessional Jurisdiction
    « Reply #3 on: September 01, 2022, 12:47:23 AM »
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  • You may find this link helpful: https://schismatic-home-aloner.com/no-jurisdiction-position-audios/

    Also, Eric Hoyle is a liar and an apostate: https://schismatic-home-aloner.com/eric-hoyle-epic-apostasy/

    A good question to ask these people is, did St. Vincent Ferrer have jurisdiction? If they are consistent, they will say no.
    My issue is the lack of proof for jurisdiction being supplied to trad priests objectively. I am unsure how it'd work with my current situation though since I believe it is possible the SSPX have delegated jurisdiction from Francis since I am unsure about SVism. 

    Offline augustineeens

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    Re: Confessional Jurisdiction
    « Reply #4 on: September 01, 2022, 01:01:22 AM »
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  • My issue is the lack of proof for jurisdiction being supplied to trad priests objectively. I am unsure how it'd work with my current situation though since I believe it is possible the SSPX have delegated jurisdiction from Francis since I am unsure about SVism.
    What makes you unsure about SVism?
    "Know you not that the friendship of this world is the enemy of God? Whosoever therefore will be a friend of this world, becometh an enemy of God." (James 4:4)


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Confessional Jurisdiction
    « Reply #5 on: September 01, 2022, 04:58:53 AM »
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  • My issue is the lack of proof for jurisdiction being supplied to trad priests objectively. I am unsure how it'd work with my current situation though since I believe it is possible the SSPX have delegated jurisdiction from Francis since I am unsure about SVism.
    Try to remember that the end reason or main reason for the law that governs priestly faculties / jurisdiction is for the good of the faith, for the good of souls and for our salvation, and why in Her wisdom, Holy Mother the Church allows for "supplied jurisdiction" in emergencies.

    We've been in an emergency for 60 years. The emergency is spiritual and it is worldwide, it is a crisis or an emergency of the faith, not of the body.

    We must go to priests we know are valid and orthodox in the Catholic faith who can absolve our sins. If you cannot find one who is both, then find one you know is valid and ignore his unorthodox council in the confessional. Due to the crisis, the Church supplies his jurisdiction even when the bishop and pope forbid it, or just won't grant it to them, so do not worry about that.

    In a nutshell, the laws were established to insure that the faithful were not fooled by fake, censured, or otherwise heretical priests ("false prophets") preaching false doctrines while impersonating or masquerading as Catholic priests. In this law the faithful could be confident that the priests were authentic because they were sent from their bishops, who was himself appointed to rule the diocese by the pope.

    The situation in the Church since V2 has the faithful conditioned to wrongfully believe they should avoid trad priests for the Mass and sacraments because trad priests are refused jurisdiction, and on that account do not have the faculties to do their priestly duties, this is wrong. The truth is that we should thank God for providing us with the few faithful priests we have, and for supplied jurisdiction - which is a part of the law.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Ferdi

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    Re: Confessional Jurisdiction
    « Reply #6 on: September 01, 2022, 05:40:39 AM »
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  • You may find this link helpful: https://schismatic-home-aloner.com/no-jurisdiction-position-audios/

    Also, Eric Hoyle is a liar and an apostate: https://schismatic-home-aloner.com/eric-hoyle-epic-apostasy/

    A good question to ask these people is, did St. Vincent Ferrer have jurisdiction? If they are consistent, they will say no.
    Thank you, I have listened to the audios by MHFM about jurisdiction and also read their PDF on the issue. But they do not seem to refute Hoyle's position. Their main argument is St. Vincent Ferrer and also the fact that Cessation of Law or Epikeia may lead to supplied jurisdiction. Both of these are covered extensively by Hoyle, including the issue of St. Vincent Ferrer (on page 101 of this PDF: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1o8W83eU33_Ei-DE1MBf8O9xOSzxRqX5A/edit). Epikeia/cessation of law are covered on page 95.
    In short, St. Vincent was supplied jurisdiction on account of common error. Nowadays there is no such common error, because nobody believes sedevacantist priests to have titles with ordinary jurisdiction attached to them.

    Offline augustineeens

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    Re: Confessional Jurisdiction
    « Reply #7 on: September 01, 2022, 06:50:32 AM »
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  • Thank you, I have listened to the audios by MHFM about jurisdiction and also read their PDF on the issue. But they do not seem to refute Hoyle's position. Their main argument is St. Vincent Ferrer and also the fact that Cessation of Law or Epikeia may lead to supplied jurisdiction. Both of these are covered extensively by Hoyle, including the issue of St. Vincent Ferrer (on page 101 of this PDF: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1o8W83eU33_Ei-DE1MBf8O9xOSzxRqX5A/edit). Epikeia/cessation of law are covered on page 95.
    In short, St. Vincent was supplied jurisdiction on account of common error. Nowadays there is no such common error, because nobody believes sedevacantist priests to have titles with ordinary jurisdiction attached to them.
    If a priest is on a ship at sea, does he have no jurisdiction to hear confessions, because nobody believes him to have ordinary jurisdiction?
    "Know you not that the friendship of this world is the enemy of God? Whosoever therefore will be a friend of this world, becometh an enemy of God." (James 4:4)


    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Confessional Jurisdiction
    « Reply #8 on: September 01, 2022, 06:54:31 AM »
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  • If a priest is on a ship at sea, does he have no jurisdiction to hear confessions, because nobody believes him to have ordinary jurisdiction?
    On top of that, none of the priests on mission to new lands, such as the New World, would not have had ordinary jurisdiction as well. Does that mean he cannot hear confessions or administer the sacraments either?
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Confessional Jurisdiction
    « Reply #9 on: September 01, 2022, 07:47:32 AM »
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  • Be careful of those that push home-aloneism.  They will leave you without sacraments.
    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

    Offline ServusInutilisDomini

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    Re: Confessional Jurisdiction
    « Reply #10 on: September 01, 2022, 07:53:34 AM »
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  • No layman is required to know canon law and where jurisdiction comes from.

    As a simple layman, you need to know your catechism and obey your superiors.

    If your grandma can't understand it, you're not required to either.

    I would strongly suggest not reading Home Aloner materials because of this principle.

    Think about this as well: If their position is true, no man on Earth can have a priestly vocation from God since he wouldn't call them to the impossible.

    Don't deprive yourself of the sacraments.


    Offline Ferdi

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    Re: Confessional Jurisdiction
    « Reply #11 on: September 01, 2022, 07:58:47 AM »
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  • If a priest is on a ship at sea, does he have no jurisdiction to hear confessions, because nobody believes him to have ordinary jurisdiction?
    No, he can have jurisdiction according to canon 883 under the circuмstances specified in that canon. Jurisdiction supplied to priests on a ship does not stem from common error.

    Offline Ferdi

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    Re: Confessional Jurisdiction
    « Reply #12 on: September 01, 2022, 08:01:14 AM »
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  • On top of that, none of the priests on mission to new lands, such as the New World, would not have had ordinary jurisdiction as well. Does that mean he cannot hear confessions or administer the sacraments either?
    These priests would have been given faculties by the pope or by whoever sent them on that mission. I would assume they received delegated jurisdiction for all the lands discovered during their voyage.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Confessional Jurisdiction
    « Reply #13 on: September 01, 2022, 08:13:20 AM »
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  • No layman is required to know canon law and where jurisdiction comes from.

    As a simple layman, you need to know your catechism and obey your superiors.

    If your grandma can't understand it, you're not required to either.

    I would strongly suggest not reading Home Aloner materials because of this principle.

    Think about this as well: If their position is true, no man on Earth can have a priestly vocation from God since he wouldn't call them to the impossible.

    Don't deprive yourself of the sacraments.
    Yes, this. ^^ It really is this simple.

    As important as jurisdiction is, salvation is the most important.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline augustineeens

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    Re: Confessional Jurisdiction
    « Reply #14 on: September 01, 2022, 08:46:28 AM »
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  • Well, technically a marriage can be done without a priest. As for the sacrament of penance, it's absurd to hold a repentant Catholic should be refused absolution on his death bed because the priest does not have ordinary jurisdiction. It is contrary to the principle that the highest law is the salvation of souls!
    "Know you not that the friendship of this world is the enemy of God? Whosoever therefore will be a friend of this world, becometh an enemy of God." (James 4:4)