Author Topic: conditioning faithful for use of vernacular in 1941?  (Read 729 times)

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Offline andy

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conditioning faithful for use of vernacular in 1941?
« on: November 21, 2020, 01:53:31 PM »
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  • So I came across this video of a beautiful Mass  offered back in 1941:


    But further I went watching it, a weird feeling started to assist my thoughts: Why did they spend so much time commenting what is taking place? I actually would prefer to listen to it in the original form. I do not need the commentary?

    Perhaps somewhat selfish - there might be people who want to truly understand all detail. Maybe. Still, when I look at it more, it seems to be quite apparent they were conditioning faithful for use of vernacular in 1941.

    Please prove me wrong!

    -Andy

    Offline Miseremini

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    Re: conditioning faithful for use of vernacular in 1941?
    « Reply #1 on: November 21, 2020, 04:32:20 PM »
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  • Andy, you're wrong.

    You have to know some church history to understand the reason for this recording of Mass.
    For 2000 years people attended Mass as spectators, for a lack of a better word.
    They understood fully that the priest was offering Sacrifice on their behalf but they didn't really participate.
    The common practice up to the 1950's was:
    ADORE till the gospel
    Give THANKS till the bell,
    At Communion as PARDON
    Then all your WANTS tell
     
    Old prayer books prior to 1900 (if you even had one and could read) often didn't even have the Mass in them, only MANY prayers that could be said during the Mass. Or you prayed the Eucharistic Rosary.   Check out the 1904 Prayerbook for Religious which lists over 26 different methods/ways  of attending at Mass. https://archive.org/details/prayerbookreligi00lasauof\
    And as this book was for religious, it included at the back, Epistles and Gospels only for Sundays.
     
      That is why the altar server rang the bells when something important was to happen, so people would pause their prayers and pay attention.
     
    Then Pius X declared he wanted the faithful to participate and follow what was happening during the Mass.
    So in the 1920's (my book is dated 1927) came the first daily missal called "The Missal".  It was later renamed the St. Andrew's Missal and more prayer books started including the actual Mass.  But the general population still really couldn't follow very well so they continued their old way of attending Mass.  (daily missals didn't really make an appearance until the 1950's)
     
    In the 1940's each parish in North America was handing out newsprint type booklets explaining the Mass which included charts etc.
     
    This beautiful Mass, narrated by +Fulton Sheen, was recorded and copies were sent to each diocese in the U.S. and Canada, and each parish church, on a rotating basis, would show it in the church basement on a projector.  This guaranteed all people were being taught how to participate.  This was the ONLY way to reach all the people and was quite an undertaking, after all there were no VCR's or DVD players or even TV back then.  It was a massive undertaking.
     

    I'm just glad it's still available for viewing.  I haven't seen a church packed like that since I was a kid.

    This had nothing to do with conditioning for the vernacular!
    "Let God arise, and let His enemies be scattered: and them that hate Him flee from before His Holy Face"  Psalm 67:2[/b]



    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: conditioning faithful for use of vernacular in 1941?
    « Reply #2 on: November 21, 2020, 04:50:54 PM »
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  • Andy, you're wrong.

    You have to know some church history to understand the reason for this recording of Mass.
    For 2000 years people attended Mass as spectators, for a lack of a better word.
    They understood fully that the priest was offering Sacrifice on their behalf but they didn't really participate.
    The common practice up to the 1950's was:
    ADORE till the gospel
    Give THANKS till the bell,
    At Communion as PARDON
    Then all your WANTS tell
     
    Old prayer books prior to 1900 (if you even had one and could read) often didn't even have the Mass in them, only MANY prayers that could be said during the Mass. Or you prayed the Eucharistic Rosary.   Check out the 1904 Prayerbook for Religious which lists over 26 different methods/ways  of attending at Mass. https://archive.org/details/prayerbookreligi00lasauof\
    And as this book was for religious, it included at the back, Epistles and Gospels only for Sundays.
     
     That is why the altar server rang the bells when something important was to happen, so people would pause their prayers and pay attention.
     
    Then Pius X declared he wanted the faithful to participate and follow what was happening during the Mass.
    So in the 1920's (my book is dated 1927) came the first daily missal called "The Missal".  It was later renamed the St. Andrew's Missal and more prayer books started including the actual Mass.  But the general population still really couldn't follow very well so they continued their old way of attending Mass.  (daily missals didn't really make an appearance until the 1950's)
     
    In the 1940's each parish in North America was handing out newsprint type booklets explaining the Mass which included charts etc.
     
    This beautiful Mass, narrated by +Fulton Sheen, was recorded and copies were sent to each diocese in the U.S. and Canada, and each parish church, on a rotating basis, would show it in the church basement on a projector.  This guaranteed all people were being taught how to participate.  This was the ONLY way to reach all the people and was quite an undertaking, after all there were no VCR's or DVD players or even TV back then.  It was a massive undertaking.
     

    I'm just glad it's still available for viewing.  I haven't seen a church packed like that since I was a kid.

    This had nothing to do with conditioning for the vernacular!

    Is your real name Bugnini?
    Romans 5:20 "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    -I retract any and all statements I have made that are incongruent with the True Faith, and apologize for ever having made them-

    Offline Miseremini

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    Re: conditioning faithful for use of vernacular in 1941?
    « Reply #3 on: November 21, 2020, 05:04:51 PM »
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  • Sean I don't understand the name calling.
    If I imparted some error please tell me what it was.
    I still had the booklet which I gave to Fr. Scott from that endeavor.
    "Let God arise, and let His enemies be scattered: and them that hate Him flee from before His Holy Face"  Psalm 67:2[/b]


    Offline andy

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    Re: conditioning faithful for use of vernacular in 1941?
    « Reply #4 on: November 21, 2020, 07:27:12 PM »
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  • I kind of distrust any organization wide, standardized (nomen omen) religious roll outs like that, in spite of a massive undertaking and ppl effort. This is the job for the priest in the parish to teach all the details and work with individual faithful. IMHO.



    Offline Miseremini

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    Re: conditioning faithful for use of vernacular in 1941?
    « Reply #5 on: November 21, 2020, 09:07:55 PM »
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  • I understand what you're saying but you have to realize what it was like living back then.
    Getting people to use a missal was "an organization wide, standardized religious roll out", right from Rome!

    Parishes then had thousands of people.  The priest couldn't possibly teach all the parishoners, much less individually.  And to add to that most parishes had multiple ethnic groups.
    The schools taught the Mass during religion class which was a big help.
     
    And some priests (quite a few I think) were not teachers.  They could preach but not teach.  Besides much of this program was teaching the proper names and describing things that are now in the front of most missals, for example priests vestments, articles used at Mass, the Sanctuary etc..... very time consuming if all priests had to teach that.  Then there was the problem of getting everyone together to learn.....good luck.  Much easier to have the instruction booklet prepared to be kept in the home.

    Of course ( as discussed in other older threads here on CI) once Pius X expressed his desire for people to participate at Mass with missals, the Masons jumped at the chance to highjack the idea and push for the vernacular participation.

    Yes stuff happened but not everything started out as a diabolical plan.  And how much better/easier to narrate a Mass and have people watch it.  You certainly didn't want every parish narrating a Mass.
    "Let God arise, and let His enemies be scattered: and them that hate Him flee from before His Holy Face"  Psalm 67:2[/b]


    Offline andy

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    Re: conditioning faithful for use of vernacular in 1941?
    « Reply #6 on: November 21, 2020, 09:48:36 PM »
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  • I do not buy the scale argument. First, more faithful means more priests (assuming a healthy church teaching). Also, did number of catholics explode after WWI? What about a family as a MAIN venue of passing the Faith? Was it defunct too?

    We obviously cannot judge peoples intentions and thoughts, so nobody will know for sure but we still can analyze the exact commentary to find some clues. I did watch a few segments of this video and it struck me like very strong, how emphasis is put on understanding. Also, the commentary completely overshadowed the Consecration. In fact, I plan to watch it in its entitreity - not only to find out details like that, but also out of curiosity and my interest how the liturgy looked back then, which I have no doubts that it is very pious.

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: conditioning faithful for use of vernacular in 1941?
    « Reply #7 on: November 22, 2020, 08:48:29 AM »
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  • I do not get the argument, is there something in that detailed video description of the mass that is in error? If so, let us know the the errors in detail. I just watched like one minute and all I see is what I read in this book that taught me the mass 25 years ago, when I came back to the Church:

    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: conditioning faithful for use of vernacular in 1941?
    « Reply #8 on: November 22, 2020, 09:31:12 AM »
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  • I understand what you're saying but you have to realize what it was like living back then.
    Getting people to use a missal was "an organization wide, standardized religious roll out", right from Rome!

    Parishes then had thousands of people.  The priest couldn't possibly teach all the parishoners, much less individually.  And to add to that most parishes had multiple ethnic groups.
    The schools taught the Mass during religion class which was a big help.
     
    And some priests (quite a few I think) were not teachers.  They could preach but not teach.  Besides much of this program was teaching the proper names and describing things that are now in the front of most missals, for example priests vestments, articles used at Mass, the Sanctuary etc..... very time consuming if all priests had to teach that.  Then there was the problem of getting everyone together to learn.....good luck.  Much easier to have the instruction booklet prepared to be kept in the home.

    Of course ( as discussed in other older threads here on CI) once Pius X expressed his desire for people to participate at Mass with missals, the Masons jumped at the chance to highjack the idea and push for the vernacular participation.

    Yes stuff happened but not everything started out as a diabolical plan.  And how much better/easier to narrate a Mass and have people watch it.  You certainly didn't want every parish narrating a Mass.

    The first hand missals were an innovation by the arch-heretic/proto-modernist, Dom Lambert Beauduin.

    Here’s a little about him:

    https://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/f075_Dialogue_3.htm

    And this passage from another article exposes his heretical views on the Mass, and his motive for creating hand missals which sprung from it:

    If the first purpose of the liturgy is to form and inform Christians [Beauduin’s heretical notion], it would be advisable for these latter to be able to follow it more easily. The obvious first step would be the translation of the texts along with explanatory notes: Dom Gaspar Lefebvre’s St. Andrew Missal perfectly represents this step, but it is only a prerequisite for Dom Beauduin’s great design.
    Then, logically, it would be even better if the liturgy were put directly into the vernacular, so it could be understood immediately. Also, contemporary people no longer have time to assist at long ceremonies, therefore, it would be useful to simplify and shorten the liturgy. Finally, a certain number of the rites coming from the Middle Ages seem difficult for modern minds to understand, so, it would be suitable to reconstruct the liturgy, at least in part, to make it more “transparent,” easier to understand.”
    https://fsspx.news/en/news-events/news/50-years-new-mass-dom-lambert-beauduin-and-liturgical-movement-11-55628
    Romans 5:20 "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    -I retract any and all statements I have made that are incongruent with the True Faith, and apologize for ever having made them-

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: conditioning faithful for use of vernacular in 1941?
    « Reply #9 on: November 22, 2020, 10:03:00 AM »
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  • The first hand missals were an innovation by the arch-heretic/proto-modernist, Dom Lambert Beauduin.

    Here’s a little about him:

    https://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/f075_Dialogue_3.htm

    And this passage from another article exposes his heretical views on the Mass, and his motive for creating hand missals which sprung from it:

    If the first purpose of the liturgy is to form and inform Christians [Beauduin’s heretical notion], it would be advisable for these latter to be able to follow it more easily. The obvious first step would be the translation of the texts along with explanatory notes: Dom Gaspar Lefebvre’s St. Andrew Missal perfectly represents this step, but it is only a prerequisite for Dom Beauduin’s great design.
    Then, logically, it would be even better if the liturgy were put directly into the vernacular, so it could be understood immediately. Also, contemporary people no longer have time to assist at long ceremonies, therefore, it would be useful to simplify and shorten the liturgy. Finally, a certain number of the rites coming from the Middle Ages seem difficult for modern minds to understand, so, it would be suitable to reconstruct the liturgy, at least in part, to make it more “transparent,” easier to understand.”
    https://fsspx.news/en/news-events/news/50-years-new-mass-dom-lambert-beauduin-and-liturgical-movement-11-55628
    I know the Traditioninaction article you posted and the whole series by Dr. Carol Byrne, but what does it have to do with the video of this thread? Where specifically is there something wrong with the video?

    (P.S. - notice that the modernist liturgical movement all came from France and Frenchmen. Beware of French priests. Today, less than 4% of French go to mass, they are not anyone to emulate. If it was not for the American faithful that built all the trad mass chapels, there would be scarcely any trads in the world today. )
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: conditioning faithful for use of vernacular in 1941?
    « Reply #10 on: November 22, 2020, 10:11:37 AM »
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  • I know the Traditioninaction article you posted and the whole series by Dr. Carol Byrne, but what does it have to do with the video of this thread. Where specifically is there something wrong with the video?

    (P.S. - notice that the modernist liturgical movement all came from France and Frenchmen. Beware of French priests. Today less than 4% of French go to mass, they are not anyone to emulate. If it was not for the American faithful that built all the trad mass chapels, there would be scarcely any trads in the world today. )

    My responses are not directed toward the video per se, but to the notion explicit in Miserimini’s response to the OP, that prior to the modernist liturgical movement’s hijacking  of that movement in the 1910’s, there was something defective in the worship of Catholics which needed to be corrected.

    Ps: And it is debatable (not certain) whether St. Pius X ever even called for “active participation,” since those words do not appear in his Italian original.  
    Romans 5:20 "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    -I retract any and all statements I have made that are incongruent with the True Faith, and apologize for ever having made them-


    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: conditioning faithful for use of vernacular in 1941?
    « Reply #11 on: November 22, 2020, 10:22:20 AM »
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  • Ps: And it is debatable (not certain) whether St. Pius X ever even called for “active participation,” since those words do not appear in his Italian original.  
    It is not debatable, since the original document from Pius X was written by him in Italian, and the call for active participation appears nowhere.  
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: conditioning faithful for use of vernacular in 1941?
    « Reply #12 on: November 22, 2020, 10:23:24 AM »
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  • My responses are not directed toward the video per se, but to the notion explicit in Miserimini’s response to the OP, that prior to the modernist liturgical movement’s hijacking  of that movement in the 1910’s, there was something defective in the worship of Catholics which needed to be corrected.
    I missed that "explicit" where do you see it?
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: conditioning faithful for use of vernacular in 1941?
    « Reply #13 on: November 22, 2020, 10:30:32 AM »
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  • Andy, you're wrong.

    You have to know some church history to understand the reason for this recording of Mass.
    For 2000 years people attended Mass as spectators, for a lack of a better word. (The educated understood Latin)
    They understood fully that the priest was offering Sacrifice on their behalf but they didn't really participate. (Didn't really participate? What were they doing at the mass, picking their fleas?)
    The common practice up to the 1950's was:( (and what is wrong with that?)
    ADORE till the gospel
    Give THANKS till the bell,
    At Communion as PARDON
    Then all your WANTS tell

    To be continued
     
    Old prayer books prior to 1900 (if you even had one and could read) often didn't even have the Mass in them, only MANY prayers that could be said during the Mass. Or you prayed the Eucharistic Rosary.   Check out the 1904 Prayerbook for Religious which lists over 26 different methods/ways  of attending at Mass. https://archive.org/details/prayerbookreligi00lasauof\
    And as this book was for religious, it included at the back, Epistles and Gospels only for Sundays.
     
     That is why the altar server rang the bells when something important was to happen, so people would pause their prayers and pay attention.
     
    Then Pius X declared he wanted the faithful to participate and follow what was happening during the Mass.
    So in the 1920's (my book is dated 1927) came the first daily missal called "The Missal".  It was later renamed the St. Andrew's Missal and more prayer books started including the actual Mass.  But the general population still really couldn't follow very well so they continued their old way of attending Mass.  (daily missals didn't really make an appearance until the 1950's)
     
    In the 1940's each parish in North America was handing out newsprint type booklets explaining the Mass which included charts etc.
     
    This beautiful Mass, narrated by +Fulton Sheen, was recorded and copies were sent to each diocese in the U.S. and Canada, and each parish church, on a rotating basis, would show it in the church basement on a projector.  This guaranteed all people were being taught how to participate.  This was the ONLY way to reach all the people and was quite an undertaking, after all there were no VCR's or DVD players or even TV back then.  It was a massive undertaking.
     

    I'm just glad it's still available for viewing.  I haven't seen a church packed like that since I was a kid.

    This had nothing to do with conditioning for the vernacular!
    My comments in red
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: conditioning faithful for use of vernacular in 1941?
    « Reply #14 on: November 22, 2020, 10:35:04 AM »
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  • It is not debatable, since the original document from Pius X was written by him in Italian, and the call for active participation appears nowhere.  
    Some suggest he added it in the later Latin version (but I have seen no proof of that).
    Romans 5:20 "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    -I retract any and all statements I have made that are incongruent with the True Faith, and apologize for ever having made them-


     

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