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Author Topic: Conditional Ordination  (Read 1599 times)

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Offline St Giles

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Conditional Ordination
« on: September 01, 2023, 12:30:24 PM »
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  • I was watching a video of Fr Hesse, he was talking about how ABL, Bp Fellay, and Fr Schmidberger all approved of his ordination as being valid, then went on to mention something about Bp Williamson's opinion of him getting conditionally ordained, but the audio was cutting out or something, and he decided to skip his thoughts on that.

    So my point is, it is possible that he was trying to say Bp Williamson wanted him conditionally ordained, and if that is the case, it seems that any conditional reordinations in the SSPX may have been urged by Bp Williamson. Was he right in preferring reordination? My point is that maybe he is too careful (like you can be too careful when it comes to the validity of sacraments), and this would explain why there may be fewer conditional reordinations taking place in the SSPX as NO priests join, because of a lack of an unnecessarily cautious bishop, rather than a worsening SSPX hierarchy. That being said, the chances for needing conditional reordination could be increasing as the fruits of VAT II are ripening decades later.
    "Be you therefore perfect, as also your heavenly Father is perfect."
    "Seek first the kingdom of Heaven..."
    "Every idle word that men shall speak, they shall render an account for it in the day of judgment"

    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: Conditional Ordination
    « Reply #1 on: September 01, 2023, 12:58:51 PM »
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  • It's been confirmed multiple times that the SSPX has allowed questionable orders to come into their ranks since their beginning.  The "naughty nine" SSPX priests who defected in 1983 made this charge in writing.

    Allowing the judaizing, conciliar bishop Huonder into the neo-SSPX ranks only seals the case, that Fellay et al, has submitted itself to the modernists schism.
    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Conditional Ordination
    « Reply #2 on: September 01, 2023, 01:02:02 PM »
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  • In that recording, Fr. Hesse talked about his ordination, he said:
    "...I have been ordained, unfortunately in the new rite of ordination, but thank God in Latin, everything strictly by the book and +ABL said that would be valid, +Fellay said it's valid and Fr. Franz Schmidberger who is my present superior in Austria says it's valid and +Williamson said there's no need for conditional ordination..."
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline St Giles

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    Re: Conditional Ordination
    « Reply #3 on: September 01, 2023, 01:17:37 PM »
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  • Thanks for clearing it up. It almost sounded like "Bishop Williamson's need for conditional reordination... um, yeah" in the recording I was listening to, as if he was indicating a tendency of Bp Williamson that isn't called for.
    "Be you therefore perfect, as also your heavenly Father is perfect."
    "Seek first the kingdom of Heaven..."
    "Every idle word that men shall speak, they shall render an account for it in the day of judgment"

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Conditional Ordination
    « Reply #4 on: September 01, 2023, 01:50:14 PM »
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  • The theory that an allegedly unnecessarily cautious +Williamson was the reason for conditional ordinations in the SSPX is disproven by the fact that +Fellay is still conditionally ordaining long after +Williamson’s departure (eg., Fr. Christopher Feeney in 2021), despite +Williamson having been gone for over a decade.

    [As an aside, with regard to the Fr. Feeney conditional ordination:

    Fr. Feeney came to the SSPX in 2017, and is reported here on CI to have stated that +Fellay investigated his ordination and found it valid.  On what basis, then, the matter could be revisited in 2021 remains unclear.]

    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Conditional Ordination
    « Reply #5 on: September 01, 2023, 01:52:41 PM »
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  • In that recording, Fr. Hesse talked about his ordination, he said:
    "...I have been ordained, unfortunately in the new rite of ordination, but thank God in Latin, everything strictly by the book and +ABL said that would be valid, +Fellay said it's valid and Fr. Franz Schmidberger who is my present superior in Austria says it's valid and +Williamson said there's no need for conditional ordination..."

    Hesse was ordained by a Traditional Catholic bishop. So that would not be an issue.

    But he was ordained using the New Rite of Ordination. The New Rite contains a different Sacramental Theology of the Priesthood.

    The Traditional Rite asks God to "bestow these instruments [the tools]," specifically the tools to offer the "salutary sacrifices," which are the consecrated hands, paten and chalice. The New Rite speaks ambiguously about "sacrifices of the Tabernacle" that were "a shadow of future goods" and which are replaced by Jesus when he "offered Himself." The New Rite says nothing about the "instruments" [tools] necessary to perform the Sacrifice.

    In the New Rite, the Bishop says that the Old Testament Sacrificing Priest [Sacerdotes] was a mere metaphorical "figure," a shadow, which was replaced by Jesus, once and for all, when he died on the Cross. That is the Protestant view. Then the bishop asks God to give him "a helper" to carry out his work, whatever that may be.

    In the Traditional Rite, the bishop asks God to give the new Priest the power to offer the Holy Sacrifice just as the OT Priests offered sacrificial victims for sins.

    The different prayers ask for different things. You get what you ask for and no more. As Leo XIII said in Apostolicae Curae, "All know that the Sacraments of the New Law, as sensible and efficient signs of invisible grace, ought both to signify the grace which they effect, and effect the grace which they signify." Therefore, the New Rite is, at the very least, positively doubtful in conferring the Sacerdotal Priesthood on ordinands.


    TRADITONAL PRIESTLY ORDINATION PREFACE

    Vere dignum et justum est, aequum et salutare, nos tibi semper, et ubique gratias agere, Domine sancte, Pater omnipotens, aeterne Deus, honorum auctor et distributo omnium dignitatum ; per quem proficiunt universa, per quem cuncta firmantur, amplificatis semper in melius naturae rationalis incrementis, per ordinem congrua ratione dispositum. Unde et Sacerdotales gradus, atque officia Levitarum, Sacramentis mysticis instituta creverunt : ut cuм Pontifices summos regenverunt : ut cuм Pontifices summos regendis populis praefecisses, ad eorum societatis et operis adjumentum, sequentis ordinis viros et secundae dignitatis eligeres. Sic in eremo per septuaginta virorum prudentium mentes Moysi spiritum propagasti ; quibus ille adjutoribus usus, in populo innumeras multitudines facile gubernavit. Sic et in Eleazarum et Ithamarum filios Aaron paternae plenitudinis abundantism transfudisti ; ut ad hostias salutares, et frequentioris officii Sacramenta, ministerium sufficeret Sacerdotum. Hac providentia, Domine, Apostolis Filii tui Doctores fidei comites addidisti, quibus illi orbem totum secundis praedicationibus impleverunt. Quapropter infirmitati quoque nostrae, Domine quaesumus, haec adjumenta largire ; qui quanto fragiliores sumus, tanto his pluribus indigemus. Da, quaesumus, omnipotens Pater, in hos famulum tuum Presbyterii dignitatem ; innova in visceribus eorum spiritum sanctitatis, ut acceptum a Te, Deus, secundi meriti munus obtineant, censuramque morum exemplo suae conversationis insinuent. Sint providi cooperatores ordinis nostri ; eluceat in eis totius forma justitiae, ut bonam rationem dispensationis sibi creditae reddituri, aeternae beatitudinis praemia consequantur.

    It is truly worthy and just, fair and salutary, that we should always and everywhere give thanks to you, holy Lord, almighty Father, eternal God, author of honors and distributer of all dignities; by whom all things progress, by whom all things are established, always being enlarged for the better by the growths of the rational nature, arranged in order according to a suitable reason. Whence also the priestly degrees, and the offices of the Levites, were instituted by the mystical sacraments, as when the supreme pontiffs ruled: as when the supreme pontiffs presided over the governing peoples, for the aid of their society and work, you chose men of the next order and of second rank. Thus in the desert you propagated the spirit of Moses through the minds of seventy wise men; with whom he used auxiliaries, and easily governed innumerable multitudes of the people. Thus you poured out the abundance of the paternal fullness of Aaron's sons, Eleazar and Ithamar; so that the service of the priest was sufficient for the salutary sacrifices, and for the more frequent office of the Sacraments. By this providence, O Lord, you added to the apostles of your Son teachers of the faith, with whom they filled the whole world with their second preachings. Wherefore we beseech thee, O Lord, to bestow these instruments on our infirmity; the more fragile we are, the more we need these. Grant, we beseech you, almighty Father, to these your servants the dignity of the Presbytery; renew in their bowels the spirit of sanctity, that they may receive from Thee, O God, the office of second merit, and insinuate censure by the example of their conduct. Let the co-workers of our order be provided; let the whole form of justice shine forth in them, that they may return the good account of the dispensation entrusted to them, and obtain the rewards of eternal happiness. (Google Translate)


    NEW PRIESTLY ORDINATION PREFACE

    Adesto, Domine, sancte Pater, omnipotens æterne Deus, humanæ dignitatis auctor et distributor omnium gratiarum, per quem proficiunt universa, per quem cuncta firmantur, qui ad efformandum populum sacerdotalem ministros Christi Filii tui, virtute Spiritus Sancti, in eodem diversis ordinibus disponis. Iam in priore Testamento officia sacramentis mysticis instituta creverunt : ut cuм Moysen et Aaron regendo et sanctificando populo præfecisses, ad eorum societatis et operis adiumentum sequentis ordinis et dignitatis viros eligeres. Sic in eremo, per septuaginta virorum prudentium mentes Moysi spiritum propagasti; quibus ille adiutoribus usus populum tuum facilius gubernavit. Sic in filios Aaron paternæ plenitudinis abundantiam transfudisti, ut ad sacrificia tabernaculi, quæ umbra erant futurorum bonorum, meritum sufficeret secundum Legem sacerdotum. Novissime vero, Pater sancte, Filium tuum in mundum misisti, Apostolum et Pontificem confessionis nostræ Iesum. Ipse tibi per Spiritum Sanctum semetipsum obtulit immaculatum, et Apostolos suos, sanctificatos in veritate, missionis suæ participes effecit; quibus comites addidisti ad opus salutis per totum mundum nuntiandum atque exercendum. Nunc etiam infirmitati nostræ, Domine, quæsumus, hos adiutores largire quibus in apostolico sacerdotio fungendo indigemus. Da, quæsumus, omnipotens Pater, in hos famulos tuos presbyterii dignitatem; innova in visceribus eorum Spiritum sanctitatis; acceptum a te, Deus, secundi meriti munus obtineant, censuramque morum exemplo suæ conversationis insinuent. Sint probi cooperatores Ordinis nostri, ut verba Evangelii, eorum prædicatione in cordibus hominum, Sancti Spiritus gratia, fructificent et usque ad extremum terræ perveniant. Sint nobiscuм fideles dispensatores mysteriorum tuorum, ut populus tuus per lavacrum regenerationis innovetur et de altari tuo reficiatur, utque reconcilientur peccatores et subleventur infirmi. Sint nobis iuncti, Domine, ad tuam deprecandam misericordiam pro populo ipsis commisso atque pro universo mundo. Sic nationum plenitudo, in Christo congregata, in unum populum tuum, in Regno tuo consummandum, convertatur.


    Be present, O Lord, holy Father, eternally almighty God, author of human dignity and dispenser of all graces, through whom all things prosper, through whom all things are established, who, by the power of the Holy Spirit, arrange in the same different orders to form a priestly people, the ministers of Christ your Son. Already in the former Testament the offices of the mystical sacraments were established: that when you presided over the people by ruling and sanctifying Moses and Aaron, you chose men of the next order and dignity to assist their company and work. Thus in the desert, through the minds of seventy wise men, you propagated the spirit of Moses; by the help of which he governed your people more easily. In this way you poured out the abundance of the father's fullness on the sons of Aaron, so that for the sacrifices of the tabernacle, which were a shadow of future goods, the merit was sufficient according to the Law of the priests. Last but not least, holy Father, you sent your Son into the world, the Apostle and Pontiff of our confession, Jesus. He himself offered himself to you through the Holy Spirit immaculate, and he made his apostles, sanctified in truth, sharers in his mission; with whom you added companions to preach and carry out the work of salvation throughout the whole world. Now, even in our weakness, we ask, Lord, to grant us these helpers whom we need in our apostolic priesthood. Grant, we beseech you, almighty Father, to these servants of yours the dignity of the priesthood; renew in their bowels the Spirit of holiness; let them obtain the office of the second merit received from thee, O God, and insinuate the censure of their manners by the example of their conduct. May they be honest collaborators of our Order, so that the words of the Gospel, by their preaching in the hearts of men, by the grace of the Holy Spirit, may be fruitful and may reach the ends of the earth. May they be with us faithful stewards of your mysteries, so that your people may be renewed through the bath of regeneration and restored from your altar, and that sinners may be reconciled and the weak may be relieved. May they join us, O Lord, in imploring your mercy for the people entrusted to them and for the whole world. Thus may the fullness of the nations, gathered in Christ, be converted into one people of yours, to be consummated in your Kingdom. (Google Translate)

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Conditional Ordination
    « Reply #6 on: September 01, 2023, 02:26:39 PM »
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  • The theory that an allegedly unnecessarily cautious +Williamson was the reason for conditional ordinations in the SSPX is disproven by the fact that +Fellay is still conditionally ordaining long after +Williamson’s departure (eg., Fr. Christopher Feeney in 2021), despite +Williamson having been gone for over a decade.

    [As an aside, with regard to the Fr. Feeney conditional ordination:

    Fr. Feeney came to the SSPX in 2017, and is reported here on CI to have stated that +Fellay investigated his ordination and found it valid.  On what basis, then, the matter could be revisited in 2021 remains unclear.]
    On that note, a few years ago I called SSPX in St. Mary's to find out what the official SSPX procedure is for NO priests who came to SSPX, I gave an account of that phone call here.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline St Giles

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    Re: Conditional Ordination
    « Reply #7 on: September 01, 2023, 08:57:10 PM »
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  • The theory that an allegedly unnecessarily cautious +Williamson was the reason for conditional ordinations in the SSPX is disproven by the fact that +Fellay is still conditionally ordaining long after +Williamson’s departure (eg., Fr. Christopher Feeney in 2021), despite +Williamson having been gone for over a decade.
    I wouldn't hold much weight to my theory anyway considering how intelligent Bp Williamson is. The way it sounded in the video is what really roused my suspicions of such a theory, especially considering how it sounded like he disagreed with ABL, but I know that to be false now with the real quote.
    "Be you therefore perfect, as also your heavenly Father is perfect."
    "Seek first the kingdom of Heaven..."
    "Every idle word that men shall speak, they shall render an account for it in the day of judgment"


    Offline magdalena

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    Re: Conditional Ordination
    « Reply #8 on: September 02, 2023, 08:07:41 AM »
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  • The New Catholic Rite of Ordination
    Michael Davies

    http://www.catholictradition.org/Eucharist/melchisedech-chp7.htm
    But one thing is necessary. Mary hath chosen the best part, which shall not be taken away from her.
    Luke 10:42

    Offline magdalena

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    But one thing is necessary. Mary hath chosen the best part, which shall not be taken away from her.
    Luke 10:42

    Offline LeDeg

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    Re: Conditional Ordination
    « Reply #10 on: September 02, 2023, 09:17:19 AM »
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  • A nun I know, whose family was quite close to Fr Hesse and knew him for many years, told me not long ago that Fr Hesse had confided to this nun and her family that he had been conditionally ordained less than year before he had died. He told them to tell no one as long as he was alive. As an aside, this nun would go-to the FSSP from time to time for the sacraments.
    "You must train harder than the enemy who is trying to kill you. You will get all the rest you need in the grave."- Leon Degrelle


    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Conditional Ordination
    « Reply #11 on: September 02, 2023, 11:27:33 AM »
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  • A nun I know, whose family was quite close to Fr Hesse and knew him for many years, told me not long ago that Fr Hesse had confided to this nun and her family that he had been conditionally ordained less than year before he had died. He told them to tell no one as long as he was alive. As an aside, this nun would go-to the FSSP from time to time for the sacraments.
    Interesting and what a blessing, if true.  Maybe he finally came to the conclusion that the "ut" was significant after all.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Conditional Ordination
    « Reply #12 on: September 02, 2023, 06:22:16 PM »
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  • Interesting and what a blessing, if true.  Maybe he finally came to the conclusion that the "ut" was significant after all.

    It's absolutely significant.  Question is whether it's significant enough to affect validity.  "ut" means "so that", which speaks directly the the EFFECT.  A "so that" B, in other words,  B is the effect of A.  With the Traditional Rite the Holy Ghost is joined to the Sacramental effect, as He is invoked IN ORDER TO make the man into a priest.  In the Novus Ordo version, the Holy Ghost is invoked.  To do what?  Give the man virtue or the proper dispositions to become a priest?  Then it's requested that the many be made a priest.  Requested from the Holy Ghost?  Requested from God in general?  Requested from Beelzebub?  Is this sufficiently implied by the New Rite to make it clear?  Maybe.  But maybe isn't good enough.  Maybe leaves positive doubt behind.  I'm not going to risk my soul by going to Confession to a Novus Ordo priest.  And I'd bet that Sean et al. wouldn't either.  Would Sean put his money where his mouth is?  I doubt it.  He's just pushing a broader agenda here.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Conditional Ordination
    « Reply #13 on: September 02, 2023, 06:35:00 PM »
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  • It's absolutely significant.  Question is whether it's significant enough to affect validity.  "ut" means "so that", which speaks directly the the EFFECT.  A "so that" B, in other words,  B is the effect of A.  With the Traditional Rite the Holy Ghost is joined to the Sacramental effect, as He is invoked IN ORDER TO make the man into a priest.  In the Novus Ordo version, the Holy Ghost is invoked.  To do what?  Give the man virtue or the proper dispositions to become a priest?  Then it's requested that the many be made a priest.  Requested from the Holy Ghost?  Requested from God in general?  Requested from Beelzebub?  Is this sufficiently implied by the New Rite to make it clear?  Maybe.  But maybe isn't good enough.  Maybe leaves positive doubt behind.  I'm not going to risk my soul by going to Confession to a Novus Ordo priest.  And I'd bet that Sean et al. wouldn't either.  Would Sean put his money where his mouth is?  I doubt it.  He's just pushing a broader agenda here.

    More gibberish, and refuted by a Novus Ordite here: 

    https://www.cathinfo.com/catholic-living-in-the-modern-world/in-defense-of-the-new-rites-of-priestly-ordination-and-episcopal-consecration/msg901721/?topicseen#msg901721 
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline magdalena

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    Re: Conditional Ordination
    « Reply #14 on: September 03, 2023, 06:12:25 PM »
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  • Purging the Priesthood in the Conciliar Church
    Fr. William Jenkins 

    https://novusordowatch.org/wp-content/uploads/purging-priesthood.pdf
    But one thing is necessary. Mary hath chosen the best part, which shall not be taken away from her.
    Luke 10:42