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Author Topic: Commuion in the hand  (Read 4907 times)

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Online Ladislaus

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Re: Commuion in the hand
« Reply #30 on: September 15, 2023, 09:51:24 AM »
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    • But we're also disputing the allegation made by Sean that Communion in the hand was the "norm" and was almost universally practice in the "early Church".  There's no evidence whatsoever for this.  It's based almost exclusively on a single, disputed quote from St. Cyril, disputed both in terms of its authenticity and also its meaning (since he's speaking in mystical terms, about the eyes touching the Blessed Sacrament, which probably means looking at the Blessed Sacrament).  Even Catholic Answers states that this is no evidence that the practice was in any way "widespread", as Sean has alleged.  This narrative that Communion in the hand was widespread, the "norm", was developed by the Modernists in the spirit of Antiquarianism to push the practice.
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Commuion in the hand
    « Reply #31 on: September 15, 2023, 10:27:38 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on September 15, 2023, 09:51:24 AM
    Quote from: Ladislaus 9/15/2023, 9:51:24 AM
    But we're also disputing the allegation made by Sean that Communion in the hand was the "norm" and was almost universally practice in the "early Church".  There's no evidence whatsoever for this.  It's based almost exclusively on a single, disputed quote from St. Cyril, disputed both in terms of its authenticity and also its meaning (since he's speaking in mystical terms, about the eyes touching the Blessed Sacrament, which probably means looking at the Blessed Sacrament).  Even Catholic Answers states that this is no evidence that the practice was in any way "widespread", as Sean has alleged.  This narrative that Communion in the hand was widespread, the "norm", was developed by the Modernists in the spirit of Antiquarianism to push the practice.

    You live in a fantasy world which CRIMESTOPS all thoughts which threaten the alternate reality you’ve created.

    I’ve provided evidence several times, and take the opportunity to do so again, that CITH was widespread, both during and long after the persecution ended:

    From the Catholic Encyclopedia (see the article on "Genuflexion"):

    "That, in the early Church, the faithful stood when receiving into their hands the consecrated particle can hardly be questioned. Cardinal Bona indeed (Rer. Liturg., H, xvii, 8) hesitates somewhat as to Roman usage; but declares that in regard to the East there can be no doubt whatever. He inclines moreover to the view that at the outset the same practice obtained in the West (cf. Bingham, XVI, v). St. Dionysius of Alexandria, writing to one of the popes of his time, speaks emphatically of "one who has stood by the table and has extended his hand to receive the Holy Food" (Eusebius, Church History VII.9). The custom of placing the Sacred Particle in the mouth, rather than in the hand of the communicant, dates in Romefrom the sixth, and in Gaul from the ninth century (Van der Stappen, IV, 227; cf. St. Gregory, Dial., I, III, c. iii)."


    https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06423a.htm
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    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Commuion in the hand
    « Reply #32 on: September 15, 2023, 10:48:48 AM »
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    • Quote
    I’ve provided evidence several times, and take the opportunity to do so again, that CITH was widespread, both during and long after the persecution ended:
    Just because it was "widespread" does not mean it was good or condoned.  How do you explain the 3-4 condemnations by popes, as early as the 2nd century?  Why would a pope condemn something that was allowed?


    Quote
    From the Catholic Encyclopedia
    :jester:  This is as reliable as wikipedia.  You don't think the Modernists revised the encyclopedia to line up with V2?  Don't be so naive.
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Commuion in the hand
    « Reply #33 on: September 15, 2023, 11:13:41 AM »
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    • Personally, any time I hear phrases like "this was done in the Early Church", I immediately go 
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Commuion in the hand
    « Reply #34 on: September 15, 2023, 11:25:05 AM »
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    • Quote from: 2Vermont on September 15, 2023, 11:13:41 AM
    Personally, any time I hear phrases like "this was done in the Early Church", I immediately go
    LOL
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Commuion in the hand
    « Reply #35 on: September 15, 2023, 12:01:23 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on September 15, 2023, 10:48:48 AM
    :jester:  This is as reliable as wikipedia.  You don't think the Modernists revised the encyclopedia to line up with V2?  Don't be so naive.

    You are grasping at straws. 

    Do you care to place a wager that when I get home and check my original 1907 hard copy Catholic Encyclopedia (and post a pic of the pertinent citation), it is exactly identical/verbatim as what I posted above?

    put your money where your mouth is: $100?

    If you refuse, it demonstrates that you don’t really believe your own comment, and are arguing in bad faith.
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    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Commuion in the hand
    « Reply #36 on: September 15, 2023, 12:25:53 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on September 15, 2023, 12:01:23 PM
    You are grasping at straws. 

    Do you care to place a wager that when I get home and check my original 1907 hard copy Catholic Encyclopedia (and post a pic of the pertinent citation), it is exactly identical/verbatim as what I posted above?

    put your money where your mouth is: $100?

    If you refuse, it demonstrates that you don’t really believe your own comment, and are arguing in bad faith.

    Sean,

    Do me a favor: when you're at it checking your hard copy, see if this section on "Predestination" was written by the 1907 Modernists or post-V2 Reviser Modernists (Lol):


    Quote
    The same is true of the numerous predestined who, though outside the pale of the true Church of Christ, yet depart from this life in the state of grace as catechumens, Protestants in good faith, schismatics, Jєωs, Mahommedans, and pagans.

    https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12378a.htm

    Thanking you in advance,

    DR
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    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Commuion in the hand
    « Reply #37 on: September 15, 2023, 12:26:04 PM »
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    • Irrelevant.  Accurate or not, the quote doesn't support your twisting of history.

    Quote
    1907 hard copy Catholic Encyclopedia
    Newsflash:  Modernism was alive and well, having infiltrated the Church starting in the 1800s.  Had Pope St Pius X not been miraculously elected, V2 would've happened around the time this encyclopedia was published.
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    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Commuion in the hand
    « Reply #38 on: September 15, 2023, 12:34:29 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on September 15, 2023, 12:26:04 PM
    Newsflash:  Modernism was alive and well, having infiltrated the Church starting in the 1800s.  Had Pope St Pius X not been miraculously elected, V2 would've happened around the time this encyclopedia was published.

    Then why the necessity of positing a post-V2 revision? 
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    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Commuion in the hand
    « Reply #39 on: September 15, 2023, 12:55:08 PM »
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    • Modernism has flourished, and been corrected, many times in the last 2 centuries.  Not everything is 100% orthodox, just because it's pre-V2.  
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Commuion in the hand
    « Reply #40 on: September 15, 2023, 12:58:47 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on September 15, 2023, 10:48:48 AM
    Just because it was "widespread" does not mean it was good or condoned.  How do you explain the 3-4 condemnations by popes, as early as the 2nd century?  Why would a pope condemn something that was allowed?

    :jester:  This is as reliable as wikipedia.  You don't think the Modernists revised the encyclopedia to line up with V2?  Don't be so naive.

    As I suspected, Pax is full of it again. 

    The 1907 excerpt is identical to the allegedly revised post-conciliar online version:





    :facepalm:

    Pax being Pax, making crap up as fast as he can think it up.

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    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Commuion in the hand
    « Reply #41 on: September 15, 2023, 01:29:05 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on September 15, 2023, 12:58:47 PM
    As I suspected, Pax is full of it again. 

    The 1907 excerpt is identical to the allegedly revised post-conciliar online version:





    :facepalm:

    Pax being Pax, making crap up as fast as he can think it up.

    Obviously, somewhere along the lines the second revision was revised back to the original revision of the original vision.

    Or something like that. 
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    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Commuion in the hand
    « Reply #42 on: September 15, 2023, 01:44:20 PM »
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    • Irrelevant.  The quote doesn't support Sean's twisting of history.
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    Offline C8Trad

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    Re: Commuion in the hand
    « Reply #43 on: September 15, 2023, 02:10:17 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on September 15, 2023, 10:48:48 AM
    How do you explain the 3-4 condemnations by popes, as early as the 2nd century?  Why would a pope condemn something that was allowed?


    You are assuming a fact without having proven it. Have you verified that for yourself?  If so, do as Sean has done and provide the actual quote from these popes along with the source where it can be verified  
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Commuion in the hand
    « Reply #44 on: September 15, 2023, 02:20:57 PM »
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    • Sean, quit creating new accounts.  :laugh1:
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