Author Topic: Commentary on the Wretched Decree "Unitatis Redintegratio" (Read 2878 times)

Lover of Truth · « **Reply #5 on:** June 26, 2013, 11:15:16 AM »

Quote

1) An infant receives a valid sacramental Baptism by a Lutheran minister in a Lutheran church (small 'c').

2) The following week the infant dies.

Does that infant go to Heaven as opposed to Limbo? If so, is such "significant and important"?

To elaborate, baptism is a Catholic Sacrament. The effect of a valid baptism is accomplished by the "work worked" rather than the "work of the worker". The minister's beliefs do not prevent the Sacrament from doing what the Sacrament does. Though his intent can. The baby not comprehending or professing the faith does not prevent the Sacrament from doing what it does. The baby is Catholic until he consciously rejects the faith or embraces a false religion.

The baby is not saved by the Lutheran Church but by God through the Catholic Sacrament. He dies cleansed of Original Sin with the supernatural theological virtues of Faith, Hope and Charity infused in his soul.

Jehanne · « **Reply #6 on:** June 26, 2013, 12:05:17 PM »

Quote from: Lover of Truth

Quote from: Jehanne
Quote from: Lover of Truth
It follows that the separated Churches(23 Cf. CONC. LATERANENSE IV (1215) Constitutio IV: Mansi 22, 990; CONC. LUGDUNENSE II (1274), Professio fidei Michaelis Palaeologi: Mansi 24, 71 E; CONC. FLORENTINUM, Sess. VI (1439), Definitio Laetentur caeli: Mansi 31, 1026 E) and Communities as such, though we believe them to be deficient in some respects, have been by no means deprived of significance and importance in the mystery of salvation. For the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation

So the heretical Church which the true popes say lead to damnation is also means of salvation.

A single soul which is saved and not lost is both significant and important. Do you agree? Consider this scenario:

1) An infant receives a valid sacramental Baptism by a Lutheran minister in a Lutheran church (small 'c').

2) The following week the infant dies.

Does that infant go to Heaven as opposed to Limbo? If so, is such "significant and important"?

How one soul will spend eternity is both significant and important.

The infant, if validly baptized, goes to heaven.

If you agree, then what Unitatis Redintegratio stated must be true. A valid Baptism received by an infant, even if it is performed by a heretic, is both significant and important.

Lover of Truth · « **Reply #7 on:** June 26, 2013, 12:31:44 PM »

I have made a promise to myself not to get into debates here. But I will leave with the response:

Do you believe a valid Baptism does not cleanse the soul of Original Sin?

If not, why not?

Jehanne · « **Reply #8 on:** June 26, 2013, 12:39:31 PM »

Quote from: Lover of Truth

I have made a promise to myself not to get into debates here. But I will leave with the response:

Do you believe a valid Baptism does not cleanse the soul of Original Sin?

If not, why not?

Are you addressing that question to me? If so, do you think that I am a heretic? Of course, a valid Baptism, for an infant, always cleanses the soul of original sin.

Lover of Truth · « **Reply #9 on:** June 26, 2013, 12:52:06 PM »

I'm having difficulty grasping any point you are trying to make.

You say that Lutherine validly administers baptism. And that valid Baptism always cleanses the soul of Original Sin.

Are you claiming by admitting this we admit that there is salvation outside the Church?

Did you read my comment on how Baptism is a Catholic Sacrament and the efficaciousness of that Sacrament is dependent on the "work worked" not "the work of the worker", the minister is just an instrument, the formula is what makes the Sacrament efficacious unless the minister does not have the proper intent, but that is not a part of your question as you claim the sacrament is valid in this case and admit that all valid baptisms cleans the soul of Original Sin.

So can you be very specific in your objection or point so that it can be properly addressed. I'm probably missing something or reading into something here.