Author Topic: Collegiality: A Good Idea or Just A Way To Limit The Pope? (Read 2654 times)

ajpirc · « **on:** June 25, 2011, 04:26:50 PM »

Has collegiality always been a part of Catholic doctrine or was it introduced be Vatican II to limit the Pope?

LordPhan · « **Reply #1 on:** June 25, 2011, 07:11:55 PM »

Quote from: ajpirc

Has collegiality always been a part of Catholic doctrine or was it introduced be Vatican II to limit the Pope?

Introduced in V2

ajpirc · « **Reply #2 on:** July 12, 2011, 07:08:51 PM »

Collegiality: the way Vatican II tried to promote ecuмenism toward the Eastern Orthodox.

Lumen Gentium:

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The order of bishops, which succeeds to the college of apostles and gives this apostolic body continued existence, is also the subject of supreme and full power over the universal Church, provided we understand this body together with its head the Roman Pontiff and never without this head.

Wikipedia says this:

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Each self-governing (or autocephalous) body, often but not always encompassing a nation, is shepherded by a synod of bishops whose duty, among other things, is to preserve and teach the Apostolic and patristic traditions and related church practices.

According to Lumen Gentium, the college of bishops in communion with the Pope has "supreme and full authority over the universal Church." Sounds like a "synod" of bishops that rules over the Church to me.

Hey!:idea: Now because of Vatican II, we have national episcopal conferences similar to those synods that rule over each national Orthodox Church.

This my friends smells like someone's cooked up a bad batch of ecuмenism.

parentsfortruth · « **Reply #3 on:** July 12, 2011, 09:17:57 PM »

I am going to interject here again.

This "collegiality" was another tactic of the Freemasons if you remember reading from the Freemason agenda in Chiesa Viva.

21. Crush the papacy destroying its universities. Unplug it from the Vatican, saying that in this way You may receive the government benefits. Replace religious names institutions with profane names, just to promote ecuмenism. For example, instead of school "Immaculate Conception" say "Scuola Superiore New." Established departments of ecuмenism in every diocese, and make sure that are controlled by Protestants. Announce that the bishops are the competent authority. Explain to people that the papal teachings are only topics of conversation, what matters is the teaching (of the) Episcopal conference.

23. Be bold. Weakened the papacy, always reinforcing most of the Episcopal Conferences and Synods of introducing permanent. Have the reference model British situation, where the monarch reigns but does not govern, and also obeys the rooms. Later on, reproduce the same situation to level of diocese and of parish. In this way, one will originate a such confusion and one such hatred that will quite abandon the church of the cardinals and the church, then, will be democratic. It will rise it "New Church"!

30. After the antipope has been established, dissolve the episcopal assemblies, diocesan and parochial. You forbid to all discussion of it (regarding these) dispositions. Accused disobedience of those who ask questions.

32. Declared that all dogma, but papal infallibility, opinions are free. Proclaim that Jesus Christ was essentially a failed revolutionary. Announced that the Christ will soon come true, and that so far only the anti-pope must be obeyed.

Number 30 here is what's coming. After they have their guy in there, they don't care anymore about the "committees" and the "synods" and the "conferences."

Kephapaulos · « **Reply #4 on:** July 16, 2011, 01:46:01 AM »

Thread title: Collegiality: A Good Idea or Just A Way to Limit the Pope?

Response: Just A Way to Limit the Pope.

I would also add that it is a way to limit the authority of bishops over their own dicoeses. The episcopal conferences are like legislatures. They take away from the monarchical nature of authority in the Church on different levels.

ajpirc · « **Reply #5 on:** July 16, 2011, 06:55:54 AM »

Quote from: Kephapaulos

Thread title: Collegiality: A Good Idea or Just A Way to Limit the Pope?

Response: Just A Way to Limit the Pope.

I would also add that it is a way to limit the authority of bishops over their own dicoeses. The episcopal conferences are like legislatures. They take away from the monarchical nature of authority in the Church on different levels.

I was talking about something like this on Catholic Answers and, of course, they called me crazy.

I said that the Church with episcopal conferences was like a democratic republic where the Bishop represents the Diocese in the conference. The only thing that was missing was the laity being able to vote for their Bishop and have a say in Church affairs.

The monarchial structure in the Church is crumbling. A parish priest can't even lead the parish anymore without consulting the "parish council"

ajpirc · « **Reply #6 on:** July 16, 2011, 06:57:19 AM »

Quote from: Kephapaulos

Thread title: Collegiality: A Good Idea or Just A Way to Limit the Pope?

Response: Just A Way to Limit the Pope.

I would also add that it is a way to limit the authority of bishops over their own dicoeses. The episcopal conferences are like legislatures. They take away from the monarchical nature of authority in the Church on different levels.

I was talking about something like this on Catholic Answers and, of course, they called me crazy.

I said that the Church with episcopal conferences was like a democratic republic where the Bishop represents the Diocese in the conference. The only thing that was missing was the laity being able to vote for their Bishop and have a say in Church affairs.

The monarchial structure in the Church is crumbling. A parish priest can't even lead the parish anymore without consulting the "parish council"

Santo Subito · « **Reply #7 on:** July 17, 2011, 09:38:27 PM »

AJ,

Read more of the context of your first quote...

http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/docuмents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html

Quote

But the college or body of bishops has no authority unless it is understood together with the Roman Pontiff, the successor of Peter as its head. The pope's power of primacy over all, both pastors and faithful, remains whole and intact. In virtue of his office, that is as Vicar of Christ and pastor of the whole Church, the Roman Pontiff has full, supreme and universal power over the Church. And he is always free to exercise this power. The order of bishops, which succeeds to the college of apostles and gives this apostolic body continued existence, is also the subject of supreme and full power over the universal Church, provided we understand this body together with its head the Roman Pontiff and never without this head.(27*) This power can be exercised only with the consent of the Roman Pontiff. For our Lord placed Simon alone as the rock and the bearer of the keys of the Church,(156) and made him shepherd of the whole flock;(157) it is evident, however, that the power of binding and loosing, which was given to Peter,(158) was granted also to the college of apostles, joined with their head.(159)(28*)

The docuмent clearly recognizes the authority of the Pope over the Bishops.

s2srea · « **Reply #8 on:** July 17, 2011, 09:44:17 PM »

Quote from: Santo Subito

AJ,

Read more of the context of your first quote...

http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/docuмents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html

Quote
But the college or body of bishops has no authority unless it is understood together with the Roman Pontiff, the successor of Peter as its head. The pope's power of primacy over all, both pastors and faithful, remains whole and intact. In virtue of his office, that is as Vicar of Christ and pastor of the whole Church, the Roman Pontiff has full, supreme and universal power over the Church. And he is always free to exercise this power. The order of bishops, which succeeds to the college of apostles and gives this apostolic body continued existence, is also the subject of supreme and full power over the universal Church, provided we understand this body together with its head the Roman Pontiff and never without this head.(27*) This power can be exercised only with the consent of the Roman Pontiff. For our Lord placed Simon alone as the rock and the bearer of the keys of the Church,(156) and made him shepherd of the whole flock;(157) it is evident, however, that the power of binding and loosing, which was given to Peter,(158) was granted also to the college of apostles, joined with their head.(159)(28*)

The docuмent clearly recognizes the authority of the Pope over the Bishops.

Santo Subito-

VII doc can say anything you would like them to say.... anything............ VII =

....if you want it to... or VII=:clown: if you want it to.... Pre VII was straight forward my brother.

Santo Subito · « **Reply #9 on:** July 17, 2011, 10:03:47 PM »

S2S,

Clearly the terms in the docuмent cannot mean anything we'd like, as the CDF officially put to rest false interpretations of the words "subsistit in".

Until magisterial clarification we must always interpret any ambiguity in the Council texts in accordance with Tradition.

the smart sheep · « **Reply #10 on:** July 17, 2011, 10:16:08 PM »

Quote from: Santo Subito

AJ,

Read more of the context of your first quote...

http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/docuмents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html

Quote
But the college or body of bishops has no authority unless it is understood together with the Roman Pontiff, the successor of Peter as its head. The pope's power of primacy over all, both pastors and faithful, remains whole and intact. In virtue of his office, that is as Vicar of Christ and pastor of the whole Church, the Roman Pontiff has full, supreme and universal power over the Church. And he is always free to exercise this power. The order of bishops, which succeeds to the college of apostles and gives this apostolic body continued existence, is also the subject of supreme and full power over the universal Church, provided we understand this body together with its head the Roman Pontiff and never without this head.(27*) This power can be exercised only with the consent of the Roman Pontiff. For our Lord placed Simon alone as the rock and the bearer of the keys of the Church,(156) and made him shepherd of the whole flock;(157) it is evident, however, that the power of binding and loosing, which was given to Peter,(158) was granted also to the college of apostles, joined with their head.(159)(28*)

The docuмent clearly recognizes the authority of the Pope over the Bishops.

There is so much "word art" in the above paragraph. I am glad I do not subjected myself to this craziness anymore. This makes me love my TLM so much!!

Take for instance This power can be exercised only with the consent of the Roman Pontiff. the word "can". This word is not definitive. So, the Pope CAN take power but he doesn't have to?

Here look at the word "unless".But the college or body of bishops has no authority unless it is understood together with the Roman Pontiff, the successor of Peter as its head.
So, if something is understood by both the Bishops and the Pope then the Bishops have the same authority? What?

And the first and the last sentence completely contradict each other especially if you didn't understand the word art - unless.

Honestly, Santo, you can understand this paragraph?

sheep

ajpirc · « **Reply #11 on:** July 19, 2011, 06:24:48 PM »

In the 3rd post, I talked about how collegiality and national episcopal conferences were the promotion of ecuмenism with the Eastern Orthodox. I was doing some random research (I do this a lot) and figured out how Vatican II's episcopal conference system looks a lot like how a certain Protestant "church" governs their "ecclesial community." This is the Anglican Communion.

Here is Wikipedia:

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The Anglican Communion is an international association of national and regional Anglican churches.

Almost like how the Catholic Church is the universal Church now governed by national episcopal conferences.

Quote

There is no single "Anglican Church" with universal juridical authority as each national or regional church has full autonomy.

The Pope is losing his universal juridical authority over the Church and power is being shifted to the conferences. There is no longer a universal Latin Mass that is regulated by the Holy See, but thousands of vernacular Masses that are regulated by the conference thereof.

Quote

As the name suggests, the Anglican Communion is an association of these churches in full communion with the Church of England (which may be regarded as the mother church of the worldwide communion) and specifically with its principal primate, the Archbishop of Canterbury.

These conferences are in full communion with the Church of Rome, specifically with the Pope. This is now the only purpose of the Pope: to be a symbol of the Church's unity. This is how the Archbishop of Canterbury is seen in this communion.

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Each church has its own doctrine and liturgy, based in most cases on that of the Church of England; and each church has its own legislative process and overall episcopal polity, under the leadership of a local primate.

Each conference has it's own teachings (the Canadian Conference on birth control: Winnipeg Statement) and, as said earlier, has it's own liturgy based on Rome's Novus Ordo. They are all run differently, usually as a democracy though, under the leadership of the elected president of the conference (Archbishop Timothy Dolan in the USCCB)

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The Archbishop of Canterbury, religious head of the Church of England, has no formal authority outside that jurisdiction, but is recognised as symbolic head of the worldwide communion.

The Pope has almost no authority anymore outside of his See or maybe Italian conference and, as said earlier, only a symbolic head and unity of the Catholic Church.

Quote

Among the other primates, he is considered as primus inter pares, which translates as "first among equals".

This is very similar in the Orthodox collegiality view of the Pope. He is first "symbolically" among the other presidents and councils and is equal to them, therefore giving him no authority.

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All 38 provinces of the Anglican Communion are independent, each with its own primate and governing structure.

As said before with a presider over a conference which independently makes it's own rules (liturgy, beliefs, abstinence/fasting laws, etc.)

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These provinces may take the form of national churches (such as in Canada, Uganda, or Japan) or a collection of nations (such as the West Indies, Central Africa, or Southeast Asia).

National episcopal conferences (United States Conference of Catholic Bishops, Canadian Conference of Catholic Bishops, or Irish Catholic Bishops' Conference)
or a collection of national conferences (Symposium of Episcopal Conferences of Africa and Madagascar, Federation of Asian Bishops' Conferences, or Council of European Bishops' Conferences).

The Catholic Church has already been governed like the Eastern Orthodox Churches, but in the Eastern Catholic Churches. To go along with everything else I've learned about Vatican II's ecuмenism, that it is to Protestantize the Church, I think it would be better to say that Vatican II's collegiality is based on the Anglican Communion.

s2srea · « **Reply #12 on:** July 19, 2011, 06:30:35 PM »

AJ- great research! Thank you for sharing!

ajpirc · « **Reply #13 on:** July 19, 2011, 06:38:00 PM »

Quote from: s2srea

AJ- great research! Thank you for sharing!

Thank you s2srea! Any time!

salus · « **Reply #14 on:** July 20, 2011, 12:48:58 AM »

Each Bishop had full control of his diocese and that used to be enough to deal with without trying to self promote yourself in the universal church. Pope Saint Pius Xth wanted each bishop to open their own seminary to fight modernism. Believe it or not St. Bernard's Seminary in Rochester, New York was one of the first set up for that, unfortunately it was destroyed by a modernist who took over as Bishop of Rochester in 1979, Matthew Clark.