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Offline Classiccom

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Club Infallibe declares Bible not Infallible
« on: August 20, 2010, 10:43:12 AM »
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  • http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article574768.ece

    Catholic Church no longer swears by truth of the Bible
    By Ruth Gledhill, Religion Correspondent

    THE hierarchy of the Roman Catholic Church has published a teaching docuмent instructing the faithful that some parts of the Bible are not actually true.

    The Catholic bishops of England, Wales and Scotland are warning their five million worshippers, as well as any others drawn to the study of scripture, that they should not expect “total accuracy” from the Bible.

    “We should not expect to find in Scripture full scientific accuracy or complete historical precision,” they say in The Gift of Scripture.

    The docuмent is timely, coming as it does amid the rise of the religious Right, in particular in the US.

    Some Christians want a literal interpretation of the story of creation, as told in Genesis, taught alongside Darwin’s theory of evolution in schools, believing “intelligent design” to be an equally plausible theory of how the world began.

    But the first 11 chapters of Genesis, in which two different and at times conflicting stories of creation are told, are among those that this country’s Catholic bishops insist cannot be “historical”. At most, they say, they may contain “historical traces”.

    The docuмent shows how far the Catholic Church has come since the 17th century, when Galileo was condemned as a heretic for flouting a near-universal belief in the divine inspiration of the Bible by advocating the Copernican view of the solar system. Only a century ago, Pope Pius X condemned Modernist Catholic scholars who adapted historical-critical methods of analysing ancient literature to the Bible.

    In the docuмent, the bishops acknowledge their debt to biblical scholars. They say the Bible must be approached in the knowledge that it is “God’s word expressed in human language” and that proper acknowledgement should be given both to the word of God and its human dimensions.

    They say the Church must offer the gospel in ways “appropriate to changing times, intelligible and attractive to our contemporaries”.

    The Bible is true in passages relating to human salvation, they say, but continue: “We should not expect total accuracy from the Bible in other, secular matters.”

    They go on to condemn fundamentalism for its “intransigent intolerance” and to warn of “significant dangers” involved in a fundamentalist approach.

    “Such an approach is dangerous, for example, when people of one nation or group see in the Bible a mandate for their own superiority, and even consider themselves permitted by the Bible to use violence against others.”

    Of the notorious anti-Jєωιѕн curse in Matthew 27:25, “His blood be on us and on our children”, a passage used to justify centuries of anti-Semitism, the bishops say these and other words must never be used again as a pretext to treat Jєωιѕн people with contempt. Describing this passage as an example of dramatic exaggeration, the bishops say they have had “tragic consequences” in encouraging hatred and persecution. “The attitudes and language of first-century quarrels between Jєωs and Jєωιѕн Christians should never again be emulated in relations between Jєωs and Christians.”

    As examples of passages not to be taken literally, the bishops cite the early chapters of Genesis, comparing them with early creation legends from other cultures, especially from the ancient East. The bishops say it is clear that the primary purpose of these chapters was to provide religious teaching and that they could not be described as historical writing.

    Similarly, they refute the apocalyptic prophecies of Revelation, the last book of the Christian Bible, in which the writer describes the work of the risen Jesus, the death of the Beast and the wedding feast of Christ the Lamb.

    The bishops say: “Such symbolic language must be respected for what it is, and is not to be interpreted literally. We should not expect to discover in this book details about the end of the world, about how many will be saved and about when the end will come.”

    In their foreword to the teaching docuмent, the two most senior Catholics of the land, Cardinal Cormac Murphy-O’Connor, Archbishop of Westminster, and Cardinal Keith O’Brien, Archbishop of St Andrew’s and Edinburgh, explain its context.

    They say people today are searching for what is worthwhile, what has real value, what can be trusted and what is really true.

    The new teaching has been issued as part of the 40th anniversary celebrations of Dei Verbum, the Second Vatican Council docuмent explaining the place of Scripture in revelation. In the past 40 years, Catholics have learnt more than ever before to cherish the Bible. “We have rediscovered the Bible as a precious treasure, both ancient and ever new.”

    A Christian charity is sending a film about the Christmas story to every primary school in Britain after hearing of a young boy who asked his teacher why Mary and Joseph had named their baby after a swear word. The Breakout Trust raised £200,000 to make the 30-minute animated film, It’s a Boy. Steve Legg, head of the charity, said: “There are over 12 million children in the UK and only 756,000 of them go to church regularly.

    That leaves a staggering number who are probably not receiving basic Christian teaching.”

    BELIEVE IT OR NOT

    UNTRUE

    Genesis ii, 21-22

    So the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man, and while he slept he took one of his ribs and closed up its place with flesh; and the rib which the Lord God had taken from the man he made into a woman and brought her to the man

    Genesis iii, 16

    God said to the woman [after she was beguiled by the serpent]: “I will greatly multiply your pain in childbearing; in pain you shall bring forth children, yet your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you.”

    Matthew xxvii, 25

    The words of the crowd: “His blood be on us and on our children.”

    Revelation xix,20

    And the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who in its presence had worked the signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshipped its image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with brimstone.”

    TRUE

    Exodus iii, 14

    God reveals himself to Moses as: “I am who I am.”

    Leviticus xxvi,12

    “I will be your God, and you shall be my people.”

    Exodus xx,1-17

    The Ten Commandments

    Matthew v,7

    The Sermon on the Mount

    Mark viii,29

    Peter declares Jesus to be the Christ

    Luke i

    The Virgin Birth

    John xx,28

    Proof of bodily resurrection

    JOIN THE DEBATE
    www.timesonline.co.uk/debate


    Offline Matthew

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    Club Infallibe declares Bible not Infallible
    « Reply #1 on: August 20, 2010, 10:53:31 AM »
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  • The error/heresy of Modernism, plain and simple.

    Modernism does damage to every area of the Catholic Faith, including Biblical exegesis.

    Matthew
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    Offline Emerentiana

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    Club Infallibe declares Bible not Infallible
    « Reply #2 on: August 20, 2010, 11:37:33 AM »
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  • Quote from: Matthew
    The error/heresy of Modernism, plain and simple.

    Modernism does damage to every area of the Catholic Faith, including Biblical exegesis.

    Matthew


    Yep, the "pope" and the heirarchy of the modern church are modernist heretics.  They have incurred "ipso facto" excommunication, and are no longer the authority in the church.            

    Offline Belloc

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    Club Infallibe declares Bible not Infallible
    « Reply #3 on: August 20, 2010, 11:43:13 AM »
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  • and an authoratitive Pope and Bihops staetd it was many, many yrs ago-which Old Catholics, had they been there at the time, would have objected and told them then they were "club infallible"

    Classicom, he if feels bible is infallible, would then have to rely on those authoratitive Popes and bishops for that authority.,an interesting quandry.
    Proud "European American" and prouder, still, Catholic

    Offline Belloc

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    « Reply #4 on: August 20, 2010, 11:45:06 AM »
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  • Quote from: Emerentiana
    Quote from: Matthew
    The error/heresy of Modernism, plain and simple.

    Modernism does damage to every area of the Catholic Faith, including Biblical exegesis.

    Matthew


    Yep, the "pope" and the heirarchy of the modern church are modernist heretics.  They have incurred "ipso facto" excommunication, and are no longer the authority in the church.            


    says you, but thankfully, you are not an authority!! There is a procedure and rules for who is and is not a heretic and who is or has authority and who, having authority, loses that authority-how and why, whne,etc...

    I notice your venomous way of typing, replete with bold facing has not changed....though, unlike some, you do not bold and enalrge words to huge,etc...

    you have appointed authority onto yourself, not a good construct.....
    Proud "European American" and prouder, still, Catholic


    Offline Belloc

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    Club Infallibe declares Bible not Infallible
    « Reply #5 on: August 20, 2010, 11:48:56 AM »
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  • from the article:

    "THE hierarchy of the Roman Catholic Church has published a teaching docuмent instructing the faithful that some parts of the Bible are not actually true.

    The Catholic bishops of England, Wales and Scotland are warning their five million worshippers, as well as any others drawn to the study of scripture, that they should not expect “total accuracy” from the Bible. "

    so, afew prelates in Britain are now enough to blame the whole Church, inclduing B16 and others, of heresy...

    it fits the Old Catholic beliefs of Classicom and Emerntia has jumped on the bandwagon to, again, promote SV and her own rather alarmist rant...

    did the Pope himself state this view recently? how about the S/AMerican bishops?

    Could it be these Brits are out of order, but not-publicly-others??

    heck, though, that is not as fun as our pet obsessions, now, is it!


    when mostof the world was Arian, still not seeing the SV theory then posited, odd....even w/Liberius' statements,etc...

    how about it Emer's??
    Proud "European American" and prouder, still, Catholic

    Offline Belloc

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    Club Infallibe declares Bible not Infallible
    « Reply #6 on: August 20, 2010, 12:01:23 PM »
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  • hey some of Club Fallible (Old Catholics) are now ordaining women, and using the Classicom/mer logic, this then means the whole Club Fallible groups is evil and baddies:

    http://www.alt-katholisch.de/information/frauenordination/index.html

    Ordaining women goes against scripture, biblical model and ancient RCC faith....guess, thes CF folks are not taking the bible seriously....

    some allow divorce/remarriage, in violation of scripture and ancient Church

    http://www.alt-katholisch.de/information/haeufig_gestellte_fragen/ehe_scheidung_wiederheirat/index.html

    So, with the same lens ClassiEmers uses, these people are heretics too and hence, the whole group in general....no weeding out folks, justa slapped on blanket label!

    too bad Old Catholics/Clug Fallibles did not have a final, auhtorative voice, but a group of voting collegiality "bishops"...

    and these are the peeps that some SV get their priests and Bishops from...can good fruit come from rotten Schismatics? Not from what I can gleen from Thomsitic thought...
    Proud "European American" and prouder, still, Catholic

    Offline Belloc

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    « Reply #7 on: August 20, 2010, 12:04:32 PM »
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  • not to Orthodox looking to me, the Clug Mucho-Fallible:

    An active contributor to The Declaration of the Catholic Congress, Munich, 1871 and all later assemblies for organization was Johann Friedrich von Schulte, the professor of dogma at Prague. Von Schulte summed up the results of the congress as follows:

    adherence to the ancient Catholic faith;
    maintenance of the rights of Catholics as such;
    rejection of the new dogmas,
    adherence to the constitutions of the ancient Church with repudiation of every dogma of faith not in harmony with the actual consciousness of the Church;
    reform of the Church with constitutional participation of the laity;
    preparation of the way for reunion of the Christian confessions;
    reform of the training and position of the clergy;
    adherence to the State against the attacks of Ultramontanism;
    rejection of the Society of Jesus;
    solemn assertion of the claims of Catholics as such to the real property of the Church and to the title to it.[46]
    Proud "European American" and prouder, still, Catholic


    Offline Belloc

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    « Reply #8 on: August 20, 2010, 12:11:43 PM »
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  • hey, CLug Mucho-Fallible has no problems with fag-"marriages', in rejection of the Bible, there, too!! Since the views of one mean the views of the whole, ola EmerClassi, then the whole Old Catholic "church" is queer=pro

    http://www.rnw.nl/english/article/ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity-not-issue-old-catholic-church

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blessing_of_same-sex_unions_in_Christian_churches#Old_Catholic.2C_Reformed_Catholic_Churches_and_Liberal_Catholic_Church

    http://opentabernacle.wordpress.com/2010/04/04/he-is-risen-within-the-old-catholic-church/

    http://gαyrights.change.org/blog/view/a_catholic_crusade_against_gαy_marriage

    (see comment below)

    "Ioan Lightoller
    Absolutely, Fester. these hateful people lie and distort the issue every chance they get, whipping up the less educated, bigoted members of their church to think that they have the right to keep others from having full civil rights.

    I would like to point out that this is the Roman Catholic Church. I am Old Catholic and like other churches, such as the American Catholic Church, we are completely accepting of GLBT people as full members, with all the rights of adult Old Catholics.

    I read some gαy threads on a Roman Catholic board and my god, the hatred and bigotry shine forth in many of the answers. Goddess bless those who can see through all that and support full rights for all Americans."


    so, Old Catholics, ie Mucho Fallible Clubbers, are pro-fag, poor fag marriage and hence, in violation of scripture, early Church and obviosuly, then, deny the Bible...

    Emer, I know you are not OC, but as you are alleid in this discussion with one and many of your views seem to run parallel, on this at least, wanted to not leave you out of it....I am inclusive  :roll-laugh1: minded like that! :cheers:
    Proud "European American" and prouder, still, Catholic

    Offline Belloc

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    « Reply #9 on: August 20, 2010, 12:18:27 PM »
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  • Old Catholic Bishops lie openly:

    http://www.americanchurch.org/history.htm

    stating they, Nestorians and Roman Catholics, eastern Catholics are all "sister" Churches, when-they are not but in schism and accepting of sin, false teaching and troubling biblical rejections......

    OC are in some instances heretical and schismatic...

    since a fews views mean all holding views, then all are in this predicament, eh Classifallible??
    Proud "European American" and prouder, still, Catholic

    Offline Belloc

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    « Reply #10 on: August 20, 2010, 12:19:03 PM »
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  • Quote from: Belloc
    not to Orthodox looking to me, the Clug


    meant  "Club"
    Proud "European American" and prouder, still, Catholic


    Offline Belloc

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    Club Infallibe declares Bible not Infallible
    « Reply #11 on: August 20, 2010, 12:24:40 PM »
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  • wow, it gets worse-OC reject long stated beliefs in Mary, they reject Trent and claim adherence to the "primitive" Church, but ignore clear beliefs of that Church they reject now!!!! Forget schism, lets call them heretics. See example:

    American Apostolic Catholic Church
    Diocese of Michigan-Georgia-Minnesota
    An Independent Old Catholic Jurisdiction

     
     
    AACC
    Home Page
     
    Church of St. Matthias
    Michigan  
    Faith Empowerment Community Georgia
     
    Servants of Christ Minnesota
     
    Book of
    Common LIfe
    (pdf file)
    Who We
    Are Not
     
    Short History of the Old Catholic
    Church
     
    Contact Us
     
     Declaration of Utrecht, 1889
    of the Old Catholic Bishops of the Neatherlands,
    Germany and Switzerland
    (an Adobe pdf docuмent will be included in the near future for easier reading)

    We adhere faithfully to the Rule of Faith laid down by St. Vincent of Lerins in these terms: "Id teneamus, quod ubique, quod semper, quod ab omnibus creditum est; hoc est etenim vere proprieque catholicuм." ("We hold that which has been believed everywhere, always, by all; for that is truly and properly catholic.")  For this reason we preserve in professing the faith of the primitive Church, as formulated in the oecuмenical symbols and specified precisely by the unanimously accepted decisions of the Oecuмenical Councils held in the undivided Church of the first thousand years.

    We therefore reject the decrees of the so-called Council of the Vatican, which were promulgated July 18th, 1870, concerning the infallibility and the universal Episcopate of the Bishop of Rome, decrees which are in contradiction with the faith of the ancient Church, and which destroy its ancient canonical constitution by attributing to the Pope the plentitude of ecclesiastical powers over all Dioceses and over all the faithful. By denial of this primatial jurisdiction we do not wish to deny the historical primacy which several Oecuмenical Councils and Fathers of the ancient Church have attributed to the Bishop of Rome by recognizing him as the Primus inter pares ("First among equals").

    We also reject the dogma of the Immaculate Conception promulgated by Pius IX in 1854 in defiance of the Holy Scriptures and in contradiction to the tradition of the centuries.

    As for other Encyclicals published by the Bishops of Rome in recent times for example, the Bulls Unigenitus and Auctorem fidei , and the Syllabus of 1864, we reject them on all such points as are in contradiction with the doctrine of the primitive Church, and we do not recognize them as binding on the consciences of the faithful. We also renew the ancient protests of the Catholic Church of Holland against the errors of the Roman Curia, and against its attacks upon the rights of national Churches.

    We refuse to accept the decrees of the Council of Trent in matters of discipline, and as for the dogmatic decisions of that Council we accept them only so far as they are in harmony with the teaching of the primitive Church.

    Considering that the Holy Eucharist has always been the true central point of Catholic worship, we consider it our right to declare that we maintain with perfect fidelity the ancient Catholic doctrine concerning the Sacrament of the Altar, by believing that we receive the Body and Blood of our Saviour Jesus Christ under the species of bread and wine. The Eucharistic celebration in the Church is neither a continual repetition nor a renewal of the expiatory sacrifice which Jesus offered once for all upon the Cross: but it is a sacrifice because it is the perpetual commemoration of the sacrifice offered upon the Cross, and it is the act by which we represent upon earth and appropriate to ourselves the one offering which Jesus Christ makes in Heaven, according to the Epistle to the Hebrews 9:11-12, for the salvation of redeemed humanity, by appearing for us in the presence of God (Heb. 9:24). The character of the Holy Eucharist being thus understood, it is, at the same time, a sacrificial feast, by means of which the faithful in receiving the Body and Blood of our Saviour, enter into communion with one another
    (I Cor. 10:17).

    We hope that Catholic theologians, in maintaining the faith of the undivided Church, will succeed in establishing an agreement upon questions which have been controverted ever since the divisions which arose between the Churches. We exhort the priests under our jurisdiction to teach, both by preaching and by the instruction of the young, especially the essential Christian truths professed by all the Christian confessions, to avoid, in discussing controverted doctrines, any violation of truth or charity, and in word and deed to set an example to the members.

    By maintaining and professing faithfully the doctrine of Jesus Christ, by refusing to admit those errors which by the fault of men have crept into the Catholic Church, by laying aside the abuses in ecclesiastical matters, together with the worldly tendencies of the hierarchy, we believe that we shall be able to combat efficaciously the great evils of our day, which are unbelief and indifference in matters of religion.


    Utrecht, 24th September 1889

    +Heykamp
    +Rinkel
    +Diependaal
    +Reinkens

     
    Proud "European American" and prouder, still, Catholic

    Offline Belloc

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    « Reply #12 on: August 20, 2010, 12:27:27 PM »
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  • a lot of Protestant like lingo and a lot of Prot thinking...then again, in Mary, Luther and Calvin would reject some of these statements the "bishops" of OC accept....

    Hence, again, using the logic that a few errant people speak for a whole group w//o distinction, then Classicom is an open heretics, here attacking the one and only Church founded by Christ and maintaining His doctrines....

    wew, a lot to ponder and contemplate....and those supporting and backing him up, hmm. :thinking: :reporter: :facepalm: :shocked: :furtive:
    Proud "European American" and prouder, still, Catholic

    Offline Matto

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    Club Infallibe declares Bible not Infallible
    « Reply #13 on: August 20, 2010, 12:37:26 PM »
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  • I think we all should pray the sorrowful mysteries today in reparation for the suffering these men are causing Jesus by denying his words.
    R.I.P.
    Please pray for the repose of my soul.

    Offline Belloc

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    « Reply #14 on: August 20, 2010, 12:40:37 PM »
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  • Quote from: Matto
    I think we all should pray the sorrowful mysteries today in reparation for the suffering these men are causing Jesus by denying his words.


    well said, going , as I do most Fridays, to A and B tonight to assist, wil ldo

    (yeah, I know,MSMC, as it is not a SV Church, likely, I am hell bound for this)

    MSMC=Mount St. Michaels Cult
    Proud "European American" and prouder, still, Catholic