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Author Topic: Claimed Eucharistic Miracles  (Read 24437 times)

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Online Ladislaus

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Re: Claimed Eucharistic Miracles
« Reply #90 on: December 19, 2022, 11:37:13 AM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on December 19, 2022, 09:40:39 AM
    Well said, but miracles have always been a part of our faith. A part we are not bound to believe in even if the Church approves it. Some miracles - imo - we'd be foolish to disbelieve, then there are other miracles like the NO miracles, we'd be foolish to believe - because miracles tend to draw people to the miracles, which means the NO miracles would lead people who believe them to be from God, into the NO.

    Right, this is my feeling as well.  Convinced as we are that the NOM is displeasing to God and harmful to souls, I hold these "miracles" to be fake, and if there's no natural explanation, that it was of diabolical instigation.  As I've said repeatedly, if I were the devil and had introduced an invalid (or at lease offensive and harmful) Rite of Mass, probably one of the first things I'd do would be to fake a few such miracles to get everyone to buy in.

    This isn't, as Sean says, just about increasing faith in the Real Presence, but ... if it's diabolical in origin ... could very well be calculated to suck people into the Novus Ordo or to prevent them from waking up to the evils of the NOM.
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    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Claimed Eucharistic Miracles
    « Reply #91 on: December 19, 2022, 11:44:39 AM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on December 19, 2022, 08:30:06 AM
    So far as I can tell, nobody has been able to overcome this (despite Loudestmouth’s frothy arbitrary pronouncements).

    Unless someone has something new to add, I consider the case closed.

    Only thing that's closed is your mind, Sean.  Most people here understand that the "miracles" prove nothing, as they can easily be of diabolical origin.

    Beyond that, it's speculation vs. speculation.  I hold (speculate) that God would not work a miracle tied to the NOM if the NOM displeases Him and harms souls, in that it would have the effect of keeping people attached to it.  How else would most simple lay people interpret said miracles than as, "Well, if God worked a miracle at the NOM, it can't be all that bad?"

    You speculate that God might work a miracle to increase faith in the Real Presence.  Your attempt to apply St. Thomas as proof for your position is logically fallacious.  St. Thomas merely teaches that WHEN God works such miracles, He does so IN ORDER TO increase faith in the Blessed Sacrament ... which I think is generally accepted by all.

    Isn't my speculation (opinion) more consistent with the mind of the Church?  When the Church is presented with a miracle or private revelation, the first thing that happens is an investigation into the orthodox of any purported message (and then the virtues of the purported visionaries / seers if any).  If there's even a hint of heterodoxy, the verdict of the Church is invariably, non constat de supernaturalitate.

    I went in search of Orthodox Eucharistic miracles, and could find none.

    Bottom line though as these miracles PROVE ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.
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    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Claimed Eucharistic Miracles
    « Reply #92 on: December 19, 2022, 11:50:45 AM »
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    • Quote from: DecemRationis on December 19, 2022, 08:43:42 AM
    Never noticed before how Paul VI is a reversal or Paul IV. Interesting connection methinks.

    I also notice that Paul VI's signature upside down has an obvious 666 :-)

    Also alleged about Paul VI is that he chose the papal name in honor of his sodomite "lover", Paolo Carlini.
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Claimed Eucharistic Miracles
    « Reply #93 on: December 19, 2022, 11:50:54 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on December 19, 2022, 11:37:13 AM
    This isn't, as Sean says, just about increasing faith in the Real Presence, but ... if it's diabolical in origin ... could very well be calculated to suck people into the Novus Ordo or to prevent them from waking up to the evils of the NOM.
    Absolutely! The effect of a NO miracle on NOers is not an increase in the Real Presence anyway, the effect of the miracle is: "It's a miracle! The host bleeds!" *That's* it - that's all of it. That's the fruit of a NO miracle - rotten. 
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Claimed Eucharistic Miracles
    « Reply #94 on: December 19, 2022, 11:55:59 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on December 19, 2022, 11:44:39 AM

    I went in search of Orthodox Eucharistic miracles, and could find none.

    Bottom line though as these miracles PROVE ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.

    Okay, but does either the Church or St. Thomas teach that it isn't possible for a miracle to happen in a schismatic (though valid) Mass? I don't know what the teaching is for this, or if there even is one.
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Claimed Eucharistic Miracles
    « Reply #95 on: December 19, 2022, 12:06:39 PM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on December 19, 2022, 11:55:59 AM
    Okay, but does either the Church or St. Thomas teach that it isn't possible for a miracle to happen in a schismatic (though valid) Mass? I don't know what the teaching is for this, or if there even is one.
    A few snips on Miracles from the book My Catholic Faith posted in another thread.....

    Antichrist will appear and work false miracles.
    St. Paul speaks of “ the man of sin . . . the son of perdition, who opposes and is exalted above all that is called God, or that is worshiped, so that he sits in the temple of God, and gives himself  out as if he were God” (2 Thes. 2:4).

    God shows His approval of the veneration of relics by working frequent miracles at their application.
    “God worked more than the usual miracles by the hand of Paul; so that even handkerchiefs and aprons were carried from his body to the sick, and the diseases left them and the evil spirits went out” (Acts 19:12).
    However, no Catholic is requested to believe in miracles like the one of the blood of St. Januarius, kept in a vial at Naples, that liquefies several times a year for certain periods. In a like manner,  he is not obliged to believe in private revelations as those of Lourdes and Fatima.

    God alone can work miracles, and He cannot work them to approve what is false. The miracles therefore worked in favor of the teaching of Jesus Christ are manifest proofs that His teaching is true.
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Claimed Eucharistic Miracles
    « Reply #96 on: December 19, 2022, 12:10:50 PM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on December 19, 2022, 12:06:39 PM
    A few snips on Miracles from the book My Catholic Faith posted in another thread.....

    Antichrist will appear and work false miracles.
    St. Paul speaks of “ the man of sin . . . the son of perdition, who opposes and is exalted above all that is called God, or that is worshiped, so that he sits in the temple of God, and gives himself  out as if he were God” (2 Thes. 2:4).

    God shows His approval of the veneration of relics by working frequent miracles at their application.
    “God worked more than the usual miracles by the hand of Paul; so that even handkerchiefs and aprons were carried from his body to the sick, and the diseases left them and the evil spirits went out” (Acts 19:12).
    However, no Catholic is requested to believe in miracles like the one of the blood of St. Januarius, kept in a vial at Naples, that liquefies several times a year for certain periods. In a like manner,  he is not obliged to believe in private revelations as those of Lourdes and Fatima.

    God alone can work miracles, and He cannot work them to approve what is false. The miracles therefore worked in favor of the teaching of Jesus Christ are manifest proofs that His teaching is true.

    What I'm getting at is this: is it theologically impossible, as an example, for a schismatic - though valid - eastern orthodox rite of mass to have a miracle associated with it?
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline MiracleOfTheSun

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    Re: Claimed Eucharistic Miracles
    « Reply #97 on: December 19, 2022, 01:38:42 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on December 19, 2022, 08:30:06 AM
    So far as I can tell, nobody has been able to overcome this (despite Loudestmouth’s frothy arbitrary pronouncements).

    Unless someone has something new to add, I consider the case closed.

    My Dearest Plebians,

    His Lordship Sean the Great now considers the case to be closed so you know what that means - it's not.

    His Point 3 continues to promote a little sleight of hand.  If we are to judge a tree by its fruit, then what Sean keeps referring to as 'a rite approved by the Catholic Church' is certainly clearly wrong.  True, it was approved by that 'Conciliar' apparatus, or NewChurch, but that is basically 'the Ape Church' foretold by Fulton Sheen - it looks, smells, and sometimes even sound Catholic, but it is false and decidedly not Catholic.

    Also, to continue promoting +Lefebvre as the barometer for all things Catholic is erroneous.  History shows he changed his opinions on different topics at different times.  We have no idea what he'd be saying at this time.
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Claimed Eucharistic Miracles
    « Reply #98 on: December 19, 2022, 02:34:23 PM »
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    • Quote from: MiracleOfTheSun on December 19, 2022, 01:38:42 PM
    His Point 3 continues to promote a little sleight of hand.  If we are to judge a tree by its fruit, then what Sean keeps referring to as 'a rite approved by the Catholic Church' is certainly clearly wrong.  True, it was approved by that 'Conciliar' apparatus, or NewChurch, but that is basically 'the Ape Church' foretold by Fulton Sheen - it looks, smells, and sometimes even sound Catholic, but it is false and decidedly not Catholic.

        With this argument, you would redefine the term "Catholic rite," in order to fit it into your narrative. 

        And of course, the fruits of the new Mass are neither contested nor relevant (but the fruits of the alleged miracles at the new Mass might be, if you care to dig into them.  If the miracles are authentic, I'd expect to see an increase in faith in the Real Presence where the alleged miracles occurred).

    Also, to continue promoting +Lefebvre as the barometer for all things Catholic is erroneous.  History shows he changed his opinions on different topics at different times.  We have no idea what he'd be saying at this time.

        With this argument (i.e., Lefebvre is wrong), you pretend/imply that Archbishop Lefebvre didn't know what a Catholic rite was.  I leave it to the reader to reflect upon the absurdity of the argument here made.

    Refutation in red above.
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    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Claimed Eucharistic Miracles
    « Reply #99 on: December 19, 2022, 02:59:18 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on December 19, 2022, 02:34:23 PM
    Refutation in red above.

    And of course, the 800lb gorilla in the room is the pesky fact that a Eucharistic miracle is performed at every valid Novus Ordo (i.e., transubstantiation), albeit invisibly.

    Logically, to circuмvent this inconvenient fact, all opposing a priori the possibility of the alleged eucharistic miracles should adopt the untenable sedevacantist position that the Montinian rite is per se invalid (despite having the same essential form, which actually confects the sacrament, as the TLM).
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    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline MiracleOfTheSun

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    Re: Claimed Eucharistic Miracles
    « Reply #100 on: December 19, 2022, 03:09:16 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on December 19, 2022, 02:34:23 PM
    Refutation in red above.

    A 'Catholic Rite' coming from something that most here would call 'the Conciliar Church' shows I haven't redefined anything.  How long should we wait until the increase takes place before it's a proof that the increase is due to 1 or 2 alleged miracles? 

    +Lefebvre vacillated on various topics.  Using him as the benchmark for all things Catholic is, well, what I stated earlier.
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Claimed Eucharistic Miracles
    « Reply #101 on: December 19, 2022, 03:10:57 PM »
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    • Final thought:

    If the purpose of a Eucharistic miracle is to bolster faith in the Real Presence, then it would seem to be something statistically and empirically demonstrable:

    A simple survey at the church, shrine, or venue where the alleged miracle has taken place should be able to docuмent (e.g., asking, "Do you believe the Eucharist is really and substantially the body, blood, soul, and divinity of Our Lord Jesus Christ?") significantly higher percentages of belief in the Real Presence than the average 30% number common among American Catholics.

    I wonder if anyone has tried to record this at any of the alleged sites?
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    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Claimed Eucharistic Miracles
    « Reply #102 on: December 19, 2022, 03:16:53 PM »
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    • Quote from: MiracleOfTheSun on December 19, 2022, 03:09:16 PM
    A 'Catholic Rite' coming from something that most here would call 'the Conciliar Church' shows I haven't redefined anything.  How long should we wait until the increase takes place before it's a proof that the increase is due to 1 or 2 alleged miracles?

          The Resistance does not believe the conciliar church is completely separated from the Catholic Church.  Sedevacantists do believe in this complete seapration, and this in turn steers many of their conclusions.

        I would presume (but I don't really know, of course) that if a Eucharistic miracle is authentic, then there would be an immediate increase in faith among all who witness it.  Strangely, I can't find anything online one way or the other regarding anyone trying to docuмent or refute this.

    +Lefebvre vacillated on various topics.  Using him as the benchmark for all things Catholic is, well, what I stated earlier.

        The argument that +Lefebvre would "vacillate" on what is or isn't a Catholic rite is beyond absurd, and speaks for itself.

    Refutation above in red.
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    Offline MiracleOfTheSun

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    Re: Claimed Eucharistic Miracles
    « Reply #103 on: December 19, 2022, 03:29:13 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on December 19, 2022, 03:16:53 PM
    Refutation above in red.

    Just to clarify - will that be your final, Final thought or should we look for another?

    Where did you get the 30% from?  Tim Staples did that Pew poll a handful of years ago and he had it closer to 5%.
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Claimed Eucharistic Miracles
    « Reply #104 on: December 19, 2022, 03:38:06 PM »
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    • Quote from: MiracleOfTheSun on December 19, 2022, 03:29:13 PM
    Just to clarify - will that be your final, Final thought or should we look for another?

    Where did you get the 30% from?  Tim Staples did that Pew poll a handful of years ago and he had it closer to 5%.

    From the same Pew Research Center in 2019: https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/08/05/transubstantiation-eucharist-u-s-catholics/

    "But a new Pew Research Center survey finds that most self-described Catholics don’t believe this core teaching. In fact, nearly seven-in-ten Catholics (69%) say they personally believe that during Catholic Mass, the bread and wine used in Communion “are symbols of the body and blood of Jesus Christ.” Just one-third of U.S. Catholics (31%) say they believe that “during Catholic Mass, the bread and wine actually become the body and blood of Jesus.”
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