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Author Topic: Claimed Eucharistic Miracles  (Read 30468 times)

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Offline SeanJohnson

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Re: Claimed Eucharistic Miracles
« Reply #180 on: December 20, 2022, 02:52:26 PM »
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  • Does not this CE article on schism perfectly describe Ladislaus?

    "Various motives have been brought forward in justification of Schism:

    (1) Some have claimed the introduction into the Church of abuses, dogmatic and liturgical novelties, superstitions, with which they are permitted, even bound, not to ally themselves.

    ...the doctrines of the Fathers exclude a priori any such attempt at justification; to use their words, it is forbidden for individuals [...] to constitute themselves judges of the universal Church..."

    https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13529a.htm

    Perhaps reflect on the bolded words.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Claimed Eucharistic Miracles
    « Reply #181 on: December 20, 2022, 03:16:29 PM »
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  • Perhaps reflect on the bolded words.

    You do realize, no, that every Traditional Catholic is "judging" the Conciliar Church?  Ironically, this passage too condemns you, as you claim that the Conciliar Church is the Catholic Church.  Therefore, by simple logic, you are judging the Catholic Church.

    SVs are making a judgment that the Conciliar Church is not the Catholic Church, and so in judging the Conciliar Church, they're not judging the Catholic Church but an imposter.

    As Vatican I taught, there's one place where human judgment (reason) comes into play, and that's in assessing the motives of credibility, i.e. determining whether a particular institution is in fact the One True Church founded by Christ.

    It's really bizarre that you pull out these quotes that condemn you, and yet your mind, your thinking, has become so badly warped that you believe that they defend you.


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Claimed Eucharistic Miracles
    « Reply #182 on: December 20, 2022, 03:19:26 PM »
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  • You do realize, no, that every Traditional Catholic is "judging" the Conciliar Church?  Ironically, this passage too condemns you, as you claim that the Conciliar Church is the Catholic Church.  Therefore, by simple logic, you are judging the Catholic Church.

    False: The conciliar church is distinct from the Catholic Church, but not completely separated from it (i.e., one pope for two churches).

    The concept is similar to dual citizenship (i.e., one man for two countries).

    In judging the Church an imposter, and separating yourself from membership in it, manifested by your rejection of its visible head, your position is schismatic.

    We are not separating ourselves from the Catholic Church, which is merely eclipsed by the conciliar church, as manifested by our recognition of its visible head.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Claimed Eucharistic Miracles
    « Reply #183 on: December 20, 2022, 03:23:07 PM »
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  • As Vatican I taught, there's one place where human judgment (reason) comes into play, and that's in assessing the motives of credibility, i.e. determining whether a particular institution is in fact the One True Church founded by Christ.



    Can you show us where it teaches this?
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Claimed Eucharistic Miracles
    « Reply #184 on: December 20, 2022, 04:06:40 PM »
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  • Canon law........commentaries? What are those commentaries exactly, and who are bound to them?

    F.X. Wernz, P. Vidal: “Finally they cannot be numbered among the schismatics, who refuse to obey the Roman Pontiff because they consider his person to be suspect or doubtfully elected on account of rumours in circulation.” (Ius Canonicuм, 7:398, 1943) 

    Rev Ignatius Szal: “Nor is there any schism if one merely transgress a papal law for the reason that one considers it too difficult, or if one refuses obedience inasmuch as one suspects the person of the pope or the validity of his ɛƖɛctıon, or if one resists him as the civil head of a state.” (Communication of Catholics with Schismatics, 1948) 

    De Lugo: “Neither is someone a schismatic for denying his subjection to the Pontiff on the grounds that he has solidly founded [‘probabiliter'] doubts concerning the legitimacy of his ɛƖɛctıon or his power [refers to Sanchez and Palao].” (Disp., De Virt. Fid. Div., disp xxv, sect iii, nn. 35-8)
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?


    Offline MiracleOfTheSun

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    Re: Claimed Eucharistic Miracles
    « Reply #185 on: December 20, 2022, 04:12:09 PM »
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  • Hmmm...

    :popcorn:

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Claimed Eucharistic Miracles
    « Reply #186 on: December 20, 2022, 04:16:22 PM »
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  • F.X. Wernz, P. Vidal: “Finally they cannot be numbered among the schismatics, who refuse to obey the Roman Pontiff because they consider his person to be suspect or doubtfully elected on account of rumours in circulation.” (Ius Canonicuм, 7:398, 1943)

    Rev Ignatius Szal: “Nor is there any schism if one merely transgress a papal law for the reason that one considers it too difficult, or if one refuses obedience inasmuch as one suspects the person of the pope or the validity of his ɛƖɛctıon, or if one resists him as the civil head of a state.” (Communication of Catholics with Schismatics, 1948)

    De Lugo: “Neither is someone a schismatic for denying his subjection to the Pontiff on the grounds that he has solidly founded [‘probabiliter'] doubts concerning the legitimacy of his ɛƖɛctıon or his power [refers to Sanchez and Palao].” (Disp., De Virt. Fid. Div., disp xxv, sect iii, nn. 35-8)

    Okay, thanks. The above quotes seem to pertain more to R&R, since the quotes refer to the Pope as Pope, not a non-pope. 
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Claimed Eucharistic Miracles
    « Reply #187 on: December 20, 2022, 04:21:05 PM »
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  • Okay, thanks. The above quotes seem to pertain more to R&R, since the quotes refer to the Pope as Pope, not a non-pope.

    Maybe if you reread them you will see that you are incorrect. Those who hold the R&R position don’t doubt his election. These quotes pertain to those who have serious doubts about him being pope.
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?


    Offline Meg

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    Re: Claimed Eucharistic Miracles
    « Reply #188 on: December 20, 2022, 04:23:27 PM »
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  • Maybe if you reread them you will see that you are incorrect. Those who hold the R&R position don’t doubt his election. These quotes pertain to those who have serious doubts about him being pope.

    You're right. My mistake. Do you think that it pertains just as much to R&R as it does to sedevacantism? It seems to.
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Claimed Eucharistic Miracles
    « Reply #189 on: December 20, 2022, 04:25:05 PM »
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  • F.X. Wernz, P. Vidal: “Finally they cannot be numbered among the schismatics, who refuse to obey the Roman Pontiff because they consider his person to be suspect or doubtfully elected on account of rumours in circulation.” (Ius Canonicuм, 7:398, 1943)

    Rev Ignatius Szal: “Nor is there any schism if one merely transgress a papal law for the reason that one considers it too difficult, or if one refuses obedience inasmuch as one suspects the person of the pope or the validity of his ɛƖɛctıon, or if one resists him as the civil head of a state.” (Communication of Catholics with Schismatics, 1948)

    De Lugo: “Neither is someone a schismatic for denying his subjection to the Pontiff on the grounds that he has solidly founded [‘probabiliter'] doubts concerning the legitimacy of his ɛƖɛctıon or his power [refers to Sanchez and Palao].” (Disp., De Virt. Fid. Div., disp xxv, sect iii, nn. 35-8)

    These quotes all pertain to dubious papal elections.

    But since John XXIII, none of the elections have been contested, and universally accepted by the Church.

    Do sedes attempt to construe quotes such as this to mean that, although the entire hierarchy accept a man as pope, nevertheless, individual layman may disagree, withold assent, and separate themselves form him?  And if the entire hierarchy finds no irregularity in the election, on what basis can a layman?
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Claimed Eucharistic Miracles
    « Reply #190 on: December 20, 2022, 04:34:37 PM »
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  • These quotes all pertain to dubious papal elections.

    But since John XXIII, none of the elections have been contested, and universally accepted by the Church.

    Do sedes attempt to construe quotes such as this to mean that, although the entire hierarchy accept a man as pope, nevertheless, individual layman may disagree, withold assent, and separate themselves form him?  And if the entire hierarchy finds no irregularity in the election, on what basis can a layman?

    That is not correct. It is not just the election, but also what is highlighted in red:


    F.X. Wernz, P. Vidal: “Finally they cannot be numbered among the schismatics, who refuse to obey the Roman Pontiff because they consider his person to be suspect or doubtfully elected on account of rumours in circulation.” (Ius Canonicuм, 7:398, 1943) 

    Rev Ignatius Szal: “Nor is there any schism if one merely transgress a papal law for the reason that one considers it too difficult, or if one refuses obedience inasmuch as one suspects the person of the pope or the validity of his ɛƖɛctıon, or if one resists him as the civil head of a state.” (Communication of Catholics with Schismatics, 1948) 

    De Lugo: “Neither is someone a schismatic for denying his subjection to the Pontiff on the grounds that he has solidly founded [‘probabiliter'] doubts concerning the legitimacy of his ɛƖɛctıon or his power [refers to Sanchez and Palao].” (Disp., De Virt. Fid. Div., disp xxv, sect iii, nn. 35-8)
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Claimed Eucharistic Miracles
    « Reply #191 on: December 20, 2022, 04:36:02 PM »
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  • That is not correct. It is not just the election, but also what is highlighted in red:


    F.X. Wernz, P. Vidal: “Finally they cannot be numbered among the schismatics, who refuse to obey the Roman Pontiff because they consider his person to be suspect or doubtfully elected on account of rumours in circulation.” (Ius Canonicuм, 7:398, 1943)

    Rev Ignatius Szal: “Nor is there any schism if one merely transgress a papal law for the reason that one considers it too difficult, or if one refuses obedience inasmuch as one suspects the person of the pope or the validity of his ɛƖɛctıon, or if one resists him as the civil head of a state.” (Communication of Catholics with Schismatics, 1948)

    De Lugo: “Neither is someone a schismatic for denying his subjection to the Pontiff on the grounds that he has solidly founded [‘probabiliter'] doubts concerning the legitimacy of his ɛƖɛctıon or his power [refers to Sanchez and Palao].” (Disp., De Virt. Fid. Div., disp xxv, sect iii, nn. 35-8)

    But it begs the question:

    If none in the hierarchy suspect irregularity in the elction, on what basis can simple laymen?
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Claimed Eucharistic Miracles
    « Reply #192 on: December 20, 2022, 04:38:47 PM »
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  • To me, this 1983 quote from Michael Davies is well-grounded common sense:

    "St. Peter was appointed by Our Lord to be the visible head of the Church on earth. He subsequently became Bishop of Rome, where he was martyred, and since that time the Bishop of Rome has been the Vicar of Christ, visible head of the Church on earth. The Bishop of Rome is elected by the clergy of Rome, and for this reason whenever a man is made a cardinal he is also appointed as pastor of a Roman parish, and his coat of arms is normally placed above the door. A parish priest in the Diocese of Rome can, of course, only be appointed by the Bishop of Rome. Now, if there have been no true cardinals appointed since the pontificate of Pope Pius XII (or Pope John XXIII), then the only men who can lawfully elect a true Bishop of Rome, and hence a true pope, would be the cardinals appointed by Pope Pius XII, who are now a declining minority [extinct] within the College of Cardinals. There is also no doubt at all that these cardinals all recognize the legitimacy of the last Pontiffs and have no intention whatsoever of electing a "true pope" in opposition to Pope John Paul II. Therefore, when these cardinals die, it means that there will be no one to elect a pope, and the papacy will have come to an end—which would mean, in fact, that the divine promises of Our Lord had failed, which would mean that He could not have been divine, and there never would have been a Catholic Church. Archbishop Lefebvre has indeed been wise to point out the grave consequences of the sedevacantist theory."

    http://www.angelusonline.org/index.php?section=articles&subsection=show_article&article_id=720
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Claimed Eucharistic Miracles
    « Reply #193 on: December 20, 2022, 04:42:58 PM »
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  • But it begs the question:

    If none in the hierarchy suspect irregularity in the elction, on what basis can simple laymen?

    Sean, it’s not just the doubting of the election, but if the person “consider(s) his person to be suspect”, or “one suspects the person of the pope” or “his power”.
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Claimed Eucharistic Miracles
    « Reply #194 on: December 20, 2022, 04:45:31 PM »
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  • But it begs the question:

    If none in the hierarchy suspect irregularity in the elction, on what basis can simple laymen?

    Sean,

    Paul IV said in cuм Ex that a layman could reject a pope and hold his actions as void without a declaration under certain circuмstances, and that even universal acceptance by the hierarchy of that particular pope couldn't strip away that power or privilege. Even if you argue that cuм Ex was only disciplinary, do you want to argue that Paul IV granted laymen a power or privilege that violated the divine hierarchical structure of the Church?
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.