Author Topic: Check out this wreckovation - looks like a Prot church (Read 8014 times)

Stubborn · « **Reply #60 on:** December 04, 2014, 03:58:52 AM »

Quote from: andysloan

Stubborn said:

"Your indifference in the matter is bred in the NO. "

It is not a matter of indifference, it is about understanding and common-sense; your manner of approach has been seen before:

Yes, it is about understanding and common sense that the new "mass" mocks the True Mass - all anyone need do is compare the two and they cannot fail to see this. .

It is as Fr. Wathen said, "When you go to the new "mass," your habit is to see what is not there, you read meanings into words which the words you hear do not say, while you fail to advert to what the words do say."

andysloan · « **Reply #61 on:** December 04, 2014, 04:09:59 AM »

Stubborn - it is quite clear from my writings I understand the situation.

Yours is merely an effort to deflect that your holding to this false perspective, is nothing to do with Catholic integrity, but simply a matter of pride, for you use being a member of tradition as a badge of self-exaltation and fight tooth and nail to defend your fortress of vanity.

As the demon said:

"Never does such a condemnation of the New Mass have any place under the mantle of love of neighbor. And it should also be said that there are many “traditionalists” who are Pharisees."

Your "catholicism" is not true Catholicism, which is based on love of God and neighbour through penance and the cross. Like so many, it is based on hypocritical formalism.

"Excluded, then, from the company of the Friends of the Cross are those who take pride in their sufferings; the worldly-wise, the intellectuals and the sceptics who are attached to their own ideas and puffed up with their own talents. Away from you those endless talkers who make a great show but produce nothing but vanity. Away from you those so- called devout Catholics who in their pride display the self- sufficiency of proud Lucifer wherever they go, saying, "I am not like the rest of men;" who cannot endure being blamed without making some excuse, being attacked without answering back, being humbled without exalting themselves.No, no, my dear Companions of the Cross, do not deceive yourselves. Those Christians you see everywhere, fashionably dressed, fastidious in manner, full of importance and dignity, are not real disciples, real members of Christ crucified. To think they are would be an insult to our thorn-crowned Head and to the truth of the Gospel. How many so-called Christians imagine they are members of our Saviour when in reality they are his treacherous persecutors, for while they make the sign of the cross with their hand, in their hearts they are its enemies!"- St Father Montfort - Letter to the Friends of the Cross

http://www.montfort.org.uk/Writings/LFC.php

Stubborn · « **Reply #62 on:** December 04, 2014, 06:14:20 AM »

Quote from: andysloan

Stubborn - it is quite clear from my writings I understand the situation.

Yours is merely an effort to deflect that your holding to this false perspective, is nothing to do with Catholic integrity, but simply a matter of pride, for you use being a member of tradition as a badge of self-exaltation and fight tooth and nail to defend your fortress of vanity.

Afraid not Andy. The truth is as Fr. Wathen stated. You do not see the tragedy because you accept the tragedy as acceptable and the longer you go, the less you will see it. That's how it works.

Quote from: andysloan

As the demon said:

"Never does such a condemnation of the New Mass have any place under the mantle of love of neighbor. And it should also be said that there are many “traditionalists” who are Pharisees."

Although the demon rejoices over the new "mass" because of what it is and has accomplished, and although you'll never find any other saint or Father of the Church to say anything other than condemning the evil thing, try to avoid quoting demons to support the new "mass" - it does your cause no good.

Quote from: andysloan

Your "catholicism" is not true Catholicism, which is based on love of God and neighbour through penance and the cross. Like so many, it is based on hypocritical formalism.

Yes, I agree, the formalism of the Mass is to be found in it's origins, rituals and rubrics, right down to telling the priest which thumb goes over the other when praying hands are joined.

Unlike the new "mass" which "has no strictly defined ceremony, ritual, or formula. It is a kind of formless, spiritual essence, like a ghost (or something else invisible). It can only be seen when it is covered, and can be covered with first this set of rites, then that. It does not really matter which set is used, although a set should be chosen which is expressive to the men of a given time-period. (A Modernist notion if there ever was one!)" - Fr. Wathen

andysloan · « **Reply #63 on:** December 04, 2014, 08:01:28 AM »

Your writings do not deal with the reasoned acceptability of attendance of the NO, which is the subject matter of the discussion. Rather, you simply uphold the Latin Mass, asserting that any departure from it cannot be entertained. That is your opinion and your reasoning is at fault, because you wish not to recognise that the primary identity of a Mass is the offering of the atoning sacrifice of Christ, and this is performed at the NO.

Why does quoting the demon do my case no good?

True devotion to Mary - St Father Montfort

"One is recorded in the chronicles of St. Francis. The saint saw in ecstasy an immense ladder reaching to heaven, at the top of which stood the Blessed Virgin. This is the ladder, he was told, by which we must all go to heaven.

Here is another related in the Chronicles of St. Dominic. Near Carcassonne, where St. Dominic was preaching the Rosary, there was an unfortunate heretic who was possessed by a multitude of devils. These evil spirits to their confusion were compelled at the command of our Lady to confess many great and consoling truths concerning devotion to her. They did this so clearly and forcibly that, however weak our devotion to our Lady may be, we cannot read this authentic story containing such an unwilling tribute paid by the devils to devotion to our Lady without shedding tears of joy.

Moreover, God has given Mary such great power over the evil spirits that, as they have often been forced unwillingly to admit through the lips of possessed persons, they fear one of her pleadings for a soul more than the prayers of all the saints, and one of her threats more than all their other torments."

Perhaps you ought to investigate and pray about the authenticity of the revelations.

The book essentially exposes the remarks and gestures made by a possessed woman in Switzerland during 1975‑1978. Speaking through the possessed woman, the demons were forced to tell the truth by Our Lady under the Solemn Church Exorcism, which was witnessed by the following priests who have all expressed their conviction of the authenticity of the revelations made by the demons upon the order of the Blessed Virgin.

1. Abbot Albert‑l`Arx, Niederbuchorten

2. Abbot Arnold Elig, Ramiswil

3. Abbot Ernest Fischer, Missionary, Gossau (St.‑Gall).

4. Rev. Father Pius Gervasi, O.S.B., Disentis

5. Abbot Karl Holdener, Ried

6. Rev. Father Gregoire Meyer, ‑ Trimbach

7. Rev. Father Robert Rinderer, C.P.P.S., Auw

8. Abbot Louis Veillard, Cerneux‑Pequignot

All eight priests are Swiss, except Father E. Fischer, a German. All participated in the exorcisms except Father G. Meyer who was spiritual director of the possessed woman. Two other French priests also participated in the exorcisms.

Your is not just a matter of faulty opinion, rather it is a spiritual blindness caused by your vanity and elitism.

Stubborn · « **Reply #64 on:** December 04, 2014, 09:04:14 AM »

Quote from: andysloan

Your writings do not deal with the reasoned acceptability of attendance of the NO, which is the subject matter of the discussion. Rather, you simply uphold the Latin Mass, asserting that any departure from it cannot be entertained. That is your opinion and your reasoning is at fault, because you wish not to recognise that the primary identity of a Mass is the offering of the atoning sacrifice of Christ, and this is performed at the NO.

It is not only my opinion, it is the Law of the Church - since you won't listen to the recordings, you should read about it. It's a short read and easily understood.

Briefly, God told the Fathers of Trent how He wants to be worshiped in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass (22nd session), some 400 years later, man replaced what God wanted with the new "mass" and ended up telling God how He will be worshiped. You see nothing wrong with this even though it is a sacrilege. I say the reason you promote sacrilege is because you've been bred to do so within the NO, you cannot see the forest for the trees because you are accustomed to participating in the sacrilege - same as a person who lives in filth is so accustomed to the filth that to them, it's not filth.

So yes, I hold that any departure from the form God told us to worship Him cannot be entertained without committing sacrilege and offending Him.

andysloan · « **Reply #65 on:** December 04, 2014, 09:55:40 AM »

Best summed up by Our Lady through the demon.

"These people act through obedience and believe that it comes from the Pope, because they do not know that there is a double and that there are some cardinals who are disloyal to the Pope. They go along under the banner of obedience. I want to say that if these Christians should happen to get hold of tracts coming from other genuinely privileged souls, or from priests, which warn them that they have no right and should not, and if they receive the interior light - which, when received certainly comes from On High - and if, in spite of everything, they do the opposite, saying to themselves: “It's all the same whether I receive Communion in the mouth or in the hand - it is of no importance”, then the situation is different. Then, naturally, it is a sin. That is what else we must tell you. It depends always on each individual case.

The same thing applies to the Holy Mass. The Mass of Saint Pius V is considered by Those up there (he points upward), by Heaven, to the preferred Mass. But many priests should be told that they have no right to trouble (or upset) people by saying: “If there is no Mass of Saint Pius V, do not go at all... say a Mass for yourselves at home on your own”.

This attitude is not good. In spite of everything, such a priest is not a good pastor (shepherd). For we have already said it on a previous occasion: It is a huge loss of graces, it is true, but the New Mass to the degree in which it is celebrated in all good faith and through obedience to the bishop, still brings nevertheless, many graces. Even if it does not have the plenitude of graces of the Mass of Saint Pius V, it brings some graces all the same. If people stay at home and believe that they only have to open up their missals, thus believing themselves to be better and superior to the rest, this is not good.

There are also some “traditionalists” who exalt themselves above the modernists. Those up there do not want any of that. That is not the Spirit of On High (he points upward). They think in Heaven that this smacks of phariseeism, and no one has the right to be like that. She makes me say that there are also many “traditionalists” who are full of themselves... We do not wish to speak any more! "

The truth is God has given us a diluted Mass for our times, but a mass it still is! The truth is to those to Whom God has given good understanding, if if wasn't for Our Lady we would hardly have been given that. Thanks be to her! Triumph and reign Holy Mother!

Stubborn · « **Reply #66 on:** December 04, 2014, 11:55:58 AM »

Quote from: andysloan

The truth is God has given us a diluted Mass for our times, but a mass it still is! The truth is to those to Whom God has given good understanding, if if wasn't for Our Lady we would hardly have been given that. Thanks be to her! Triumph and reign Holy Mother!

Here we learn that when you compromise, you will go to great lengths to justify every profanation the conciliar enemies of the Church can dish out, even if that means making blasphemous acts of sacrilege, good and lawful by convincing yourself that the acts of sacrilege and blasphemy to God's Holy Mass came from God Himself.

This is what you get when you spend your time in too many years of compromise.

JPaul · « **Reply #67 on:** December 04, 2014, 06:33:28 PM »

Quote

andysloan said:
The truth is God has given us a diluted Mass for our times, but a mass it still is! The truth is to those to Whom God has given good understanding, if if wasn't for Our Lady we would hardly have been given that. Thanks be to her! Triumph and reign Holy Mother!

This is entirely untrue. This non-Catholic affair could not have come from God. It is not a work of the Catholic Church. It was created and imposed against the mind and will of the Church, and therfore, it is against the will of Christ.

If Our Lady has granted anything to sincere hearts, it is the discernment to see this alien abomination for the sacrilege that it is.
Those with the sensus Catholicus do not have to research or investigate, they simply know it for what it is.

Nadir · « **Reply #68 on:** December 04, 2014, 07:55:21 PM »

Quote from: J.Paul

Quote
andysloan said:
The truth is God has given us a diluted Mass for our times, but a mass it still is! The truth is to those to Whom God has given good understanding, if if wasn't for Our Lady we would hardly have been given that. Thanks be to her! Triumph and reign Holy Mother!

This is entirely untrue. This non-Catholic affair could not have come from God. It is not a work of the Catholic Church. It was created and imposed against the mind and will of the Church, and therfore, it is against the will of Christ.

If Our Lady has granted anything to sincere hearts, it is the discernment to see this alien abomination for the sacrilege that it is.
Those with the sensus Catholicus do not have to research or investigate, they simply know it for what it is.

To say God has given us a diluted Mass for our times is not only untrue.

It verges on blasphemy.

andysloan · « **Reply #69 on:** December 05, 2014, 12:25:40 AM »

J Paul said:

"If Our Lady has granted anything to sincere hearts, it is the discernment to see this alien abomination for the sacrilege that it is. "

It is true that Our Lady grants sight to sincere hearts. Unfortunately for you, Nadir and awkward customer and many other "traditionalists", you have not sincere hearts, but are conceited pharisees. Your "catholicism" is selfish and not selfless.

Therefore, you are denied the understanding of the Holy Ghost, who flees from your pride. So much so, that the message through the demon is from Our Lady, yet Nadir says "it verges on blasphemy".

Wisdom 8:4

"For it is she that teacheth the knowledge of God, and is the chooser of his works."

John 8:47

"He that is of God, heareth the words of God. Therefore you hear them not, because you are not of God."

St Father Montfort sums up your position.

"If anyone, therefore, wants to follow me thus abased and crucified, he must glory, as I did, only in the poverty, humiliations and sufferings of my Cross. "Let him renounce himself."

Excluded, then, from the company of the Friends of the Cross are those who take pride in their sufferings; the worldly-wise, the intellectuals and the sceptics who are attached to their own ideas and puffed up with their own talents. Away from you those endless talkers who make a great show but produce nothing but vanity. Away from you those so- called devout Catholics who in their pride display the self- sufficiency of proud Lucifer wherever they go, saying, "I am not like the rest of men;" who cannot endure being blamed without making some excuse, being attacked without answering back, being humbled without exalting themselves.

Be careful not to admit into your society those delicate and sensitive people who are afraid of the slightest pin- prick, who cry out and complain at the least pain, who know nothing of the hair-shirt, the discipline or other instruments of penance, and who mingle, with their fashionable devotions, a most refined fastidiousness and a most studied lack of mortification. You are the members of Christ, a wonderful honour indeed, but one which entails suffering. If the Head is crowned with thorns, can the members expect to be crowned with roses? If the Head is jeered at and covered with dust on the road to Calvary, can the members expect to be sprinkled with perfumes on a throne? If the Head has no pillow on which to rest, can the members expect to recline on feathers and down? That would be unthinkable!

No, no, my dear Companions of the Cross, do not deceive yourselves. Those Christians you see everywhere, fashionably dressed, fastidious in manner, full of importance and dignity, are not real disciples, real members of Christ crucified. To think they are would be an insult to our thorn-crowned Head and to the truth of the Gospel. How many so-called Christians imagine they are members of our Saviour when in reality they are his treacherous persecutors, for while they make the sign of the cross with their hand, in their hearts they are its enemies!" Letter to the Friends of the Cross

awkwardcustomer · « **Reply #70 on:** December 05, 2014, 04:52:29 AM »

andysloan said,

Quote

It is true that Our Lady grants sight to sincere hearts. Unfortunately for you, Nadir and awkward customer and many other "traditionalists", you have not sincere hearts, but are conceited pharisees. Your "catholicism" is selfish and not selfless.

Therefore, you are denied the understanding of the Holy Ghost, who flees from your pride. So much so, that the message through the demon is from Our Lady, yet Nadir says "it verges on blasphemy".

Talk about pot calling the kettle black. What is it that inspires you to come on a Traditionalist forum and insult people? Can you not see how ludicrous you sound, claiming the Catholic high ground while behaving the way you do? No... you can't, can you?

At least you've admitted your special devotion to John Paul II and that you love him very much. (Living Popes thread)

This explains a lot.

andysloan · « **Reply #71 on:** December 05, 2014, 08:45:16 AM »

To awkwardcustomer
"What is it that inspires you to come on a Traditionalist forum and insult people?"

And once again we see your deceit, which is indicative of why God has blinded you, even to the disgrace of sedevacantism.

For you deceitfully fashion just rebuke as insult.

Titus 1:9-11

Embracing that faithful word which is according to doctrine, that he may be able to exhort in sound doctrine, and to convince the gainsayers. For there are also many disobedient, vain talkers, and seducers: especially they who are of the circuмcision:

Who must be reproved, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, "

Matthew 23:26

"Thou blind Pharisee, first make clean the inside of the cup and of the dish, that the outside may become clean."

RomanCatholic1953 · « **Reply #72 on:** December 05, 2014, 01:11:10 PM »

When I first entered St. Dominic's Church operated by the Dominicans Fathers and Brothers in
Washington, DC in 1965. The wreckovation was already accomplished at that early date
before the closing on Vatican II.
The altar was moved to the middle of the sanctuary. where the altar was was replaced
with chairs. The blessed sacrament was moved to the side altar. The painted frescoes
the decorated the walls were painted over. Is saw these frescoes in a book depicting
the history of the church.
Interesting note, this church was the Parish Church of General Sherman, of the
cινιℓ ωαr. Sherman's march to the sea also included his parish church many years
after his death.

JPaul · « **Reply #73 on:** December 05, 2014, 06:30:14 PM »

Quote from: andysloan

J Paul said:

"If Our Lady has granted anything to sincere hearts, it is the discernment to see this alien abomination for the sacrilege that it is. "

It is true that Our Lady grants sight to sincere hearts. Unfortunately for you, Nadir and awkward customer and many other "traditionalists", you have not sincere hearts, but are conceited pharisees. Your "catholicism" is selfish and not selfless.

Therefore, you are denied the understanding of the Holy Ghost, who flees from your pride. So much so, that the message through the demon is from Our Lady, yet Nadir says "it verges on blasphemy".

Wisdom 8:4

"For it is she that teacheth the knowledge of God, and is the chooser of his works."

John 8:47

"He that is of God, heareth the words of God. Therefore you hear them not, because you are not of God."

St Father Montfort sums up your position.

"If anyone, therefore, wants to follow me thus abased and crucified, he must glory, as I did, only in the poverty, humiliations and sufferings of my Cross. "Let him renounce himself."

Excluded, then, from the company of the Friends of the Cross are those who take pride in their sufferings; the worldly-wise, the intellectuals and the sceptics who are attached to their own ideas and puffed up with their own talents. Away from you those endless talkers who make a great show but produce nothing but vanity. Away from you those so- called devout Catholics who in their pride display the self- sufficiency of proud Lucifer wherever they go, saying, "I am not like the rest of men;" who cannot endure being blamed without making some excuse, being attacked without answering back, being humbled without exalting themselves.

Be careful not to admit into your society those delicate and sensitive people who are afraid of the slightest pin- prick, who cry out and complain at the least pain, who know nothing of the hair-shirt, the discipline or other instruments of penance, and who mingle, with their fashionable devotions, a most refined fastidiousness and a most studied lack of mortification. You are the members of Christ, a wonderful honour indeed, but one which entails suffering. If the Head is crowned with thorns, can the members expect to be crowned with roses? If the Head is jeered at and covered with dust on the road to Calvary, can the members expect to be sprinkled with perfumes on a throne? If the Head has no pillow on which to rest, can the members expect to recline on feathers and down? That would be unthinkable!

No, no, my dear Companions of the Cross, do not deceive yourselves. Those Christians you see everywhere, fashionably dressed, fastidious in manner, full of importance and dignity, are not real disciples, real members of Christ crucified. To think they are would be an insult to our thorn-crowned Head and to the truth of the Gospel. How many so-called Christians imagine they are members of our Saviour when in reality they are his treacherous persecutors, for while they make the sign of the cross with their hand, in their hearts they are its enemies!" Letter to the Friends of the Cross

Your quotes do nothing but confirm what I have said, and do indeed condemn your own assertions.
You cannot enlist the truth to defend that which is false, and you cannot use the Queen of the Saints to justify the works of demons.

JPaul · « **Reply #74 on:** December 05, 2014, 06:49:10 PM »

Quote from: Stubborn

Quote from: andysloan

The truth is God has given us a diluted Mass for our times, but a mass it still is! The truth is to those to Whom God has given good understanding, if if wasn't for Our Lady we would hardly have been given that. Thanks be to her! Triumph and reign Holy Mother!

Here we learn that when you compromise, you will go to great lengths to justify every profanation the conciliar enemies of the Church can dish out, even if that means making blasphemous acts of sacrilege, good and lawful by convincing yourself that the acts of sacrilege and blasphemy to God's Holy Mass came from God Himself.

This is what you get when you spend your time in too many years of compromise.

Such as we see here, is not compromise, it is surrender.