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Originally Posted by Phillip Rolfes  
stevusmagnus,
I must ask whether or not you believe that the Ordinary Form of the Mass is even valid.


When said in Latin with proper form, intention, and matter yes.

Most vernacular translations are mistranslations of the Latin and thus their validity may be doubtful for lack of form. They also open themselves up to wrong intent.

See here.

In addition the intention of many priests today who do not even know what the Mass is or the true meaning of the priesthood can be called into doubt.


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The bolded part of your statement above is what makes me ask this question. It also betrays an extremely limited knowledge/view of the Roman Rite of the Mass as well as all the other Latin Rite Masses that have existed and continue to the present day (not to mention the wider context that includes all the various liturgies celebrated in the Christian East [of which I am a member]). Christ did not give us the Tridentine Missal at the Last Supper. Neither has the Tridentine Mass always been the same throughout the ages. I've read that were the Missal of 1962 celebrated for someone who lived immediately after Trent, it would be unrecognizable to that person (forgive me, but I don't remember my source, possibly "History and Future of the Roman Liturgy").

The Roman Rite was normalized in the time of St. Gregory the Great in the 500's and emanated from the oldest liturgy of all. Small incremental changes appeared over a thousand years. Never was a mass fabricated out of thin air by committee.

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I also note that you've shifted your arguements from Pentecostal "worship" to Pentecostal "prayer methods." I must ask, what makes you an authority in prayer methods and who gives you the authority to judge whether a prayer method is authentic/appropriate or not.

Whether or not the prayer methods, worship, what have you, meet the criteria of 1960 years of Christendom, Catholic practice, an Papal teaching. These do not. They are novel Protestant inventions copied by Catholics in an attempt to "inculturate" Protestants and hope to win converts.

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I also second the motion that you read the lives and writings of the great saints and see what their "prayer methods" were. A cursory look at St. Teresa of Avila and St. Francis of Assisi will reveal prayer lives that were both heavily emotional as well as contemplative. Also, looking at the writings of Sts. Teresa of Avila and John of the Cross will demonstrate to you that things like "resting in the Spirit" (what they might consider a lower form of ecstacy), visions, locutions, etc. were/are and have always been very common in the spiritual life, especially among those who are actively seeking a deeper relationship with God. They would also emphasize submitting one's experiences to a spiritual guide and to the appropriate authorities of the Church. This is something which most charismatics are very scrupulous about doing.

I can assure you that the great mystics of the Church never took part in anything resembling Charismatic prayer worship and, in fact, they would have fleed from it and been horrified. They faithfully assisted at the TLM which they constantly praised.

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Finally, before you stand as judge over Franciscan University of Steubenville and what goes on there, I must point out that their entire faculty take an oath of fidelity to the Magisterium at the beginning of every new school year. The University is also very dear to and loved by Pope Benedict XVI (presuming you give any credence to our current Holy Father).

That is wonderful, though it doesn't take away from anything I've said.

It might be helpful to look at some differences between Catholic and non-Catholic Charismatic Worship.
Before becoming a part of the Renewal, I was invited to a Pentecostal Holiness service. It is allowable to attend worship services with our non-Catholic brothers and sisters providing we have first attended Mass. The person who invited me was surprised that I could merely observe what happened without being moved or involved. What I saw was a purely emotional service. Men and women were separated before the main service into "prayer closets." At the end of the service a young boy in ecstasy was baptized. There was no intellectual ascent to the baptism. I did fear the possibility of a Jim Jones type situation.
The focus was on the gifts as the sole criteria for whether or not a person was saved.

Fast forward to the personal crisis that I faced. Everything I did through my own efforts failed miserably. This led me to an Easter retreat. The retreat house was run by the Marians. Having attended a Jesus Day Conference (non Charismatic) in Chicago, I knew to let go and expect a miracle. That miracle occurred on Ascension Thursday. I experienced Pentecost. It is to this center that I drove weekly to participate in the nearest Charismatic Prayer group.
An objection has been raised that Charismatics open themselves to demonic influence. Yet every meeting begins with a prayer of protection against Satan. Is God not more powerful than the devil? Did Jesus himself not say "A house divided cannot stand" when accused of being Beelzebub?
While the charismatic gifts are manifested, it is not these gifts which are the focus of worship. It is the Giver of the gifts who receives our praise and thanksgiving. Earlier posts have described a typical Catholic Charismatic prayer meeting. I use the word "meeting" to differentiate from a liturgical service.

During this year's Easter homily, the priest talked about how we are an "Easter people," a "running people." He shared how as a child he would run home with good news and his feet would drag when the news was not so good. Mary ran when she found the tomb empty. Likewise, the Apostles ran to the empty tomb, Peter entering first. They ran to share what had happened When a person experiences Pentecost there is an overwhelming desire to "run and share the good news." I have already shared the witness of a priest who chose not to leave the priesthood as a result of his experience.

The Little Flowers of Saint Francis describes several instances in which a person "lay as if dead" for as long as three days. One instance described occurs while celebrating Mass. Saint Ignatius, in his autobiography, describes a sudden overwhelming desire to exult God as he leaves Paris.

A history of missionary efforts will show that it is the Catholic Church, the Universal Church, that was more likely to accept cultural differences and forms of worship than our non-Catholic counterparts. While the liturgical form of the Mass has evolved throughout history, its essential parts have not changed.
Even if a person attends Mass daily, it is not the only form of prayer in which Catholics take part. There are many forms of devotion including but not limited to litanies, novenas, and the rosary. Catholic Charismatics incorporate these forms into their individual prayer life. This prayer life may also include the Liturgy of the Hours and Lectio Divina. Regardless of where we are in our individual walk with Christ, we are called to submit our lives to God and to follow the promptings of the Holy Spirit.

I believe it is the duty of the Magisterium (i.e. the Pope together with the bishops) to interpret the docuмents of Vatican II in light of Tradition, not some armchair theologian.  Also, the likes of Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI are much more highly educated than yourself. Not to mention that it is their duty, not yours, to pastor Christ's flock here on earth. If they say that the Charismatic Renewal is okay, so long as it remains faithful to Scripture, Tradition and the Magisterium and avoids the extremes and excesses that can befall any movement within the Church, then I think I'll trust them.

Secondly, the Mass prayed in English is perfectly valid, albeit the translation is faulty. It was approved by the bishops and by Rome. These are the people in charge of the Mass and other liturgies. While it is not recommended because it would not be a very pastoral move, they do have the right to change the Mass of their own particular Church.

Thirdly, the quotes from St. John of the Cross from that apologetics website are taken out of context. If you read the rest of the Ascent of Mount Carmel, and also the writings of Teresa of Avila, you'll see that St. John does admit the occurence of spiritual phenomena. What he discourages is seeking after the phenomena in themselves and building one's spiritual life around those phenomena. Teresa, on the other hand, seems to encourage seeking after the phenomena in her autobiography as well as the Interior Castle. However, she also admits that one needs to work very closely with a spiritual director. I'll admit that there can be a tendency among many charismatics to seek after the spiritual phenomena for their own sakes. But that is just one of the extremes that must be avoided. The Charismatic Renewal isn't all about speaking in tongues, resting in the spirit, prophecy, etc. It simply admits that these things can and do happen.

I am looking at the back of my St. Pius X holy card.
St. Pius X "inaugurated liturgical renewal and the restoration of frequent Communion from childhood...His overriding concern was to renew all things in Christ."

Each of us, regardless of where we are in our walk with Christ is called to holiness, to continued conversion. Rather than look at the Renewal as a movement, look instead at how the charisms, presuming they are real, might help your own walk with Christ.
It is not merely the past four popes who have given their blessing to the Charismatic Renewal, but the bishops as well who have given their ascent to the authenticity of the gifts, these special graces which come from God.
The OP asked the question, "What is the Charismatic Renewal?" I have limited my responses to the magisterial teaching of the Church as laid out in the Catechism of the Catholic Church as well as my own experience.
One of the most common songs during a Charismatic prayer meeting is "Seek first the Kingdom of God."
St. Pius X gave "great impetus to biblical studies and the codification of Canon Law." "From St. Pius X we learn again that 'the folly of the cross,' simplicity of life, and humility of heart are still the highest wisdom and the indispensable conditions of a perfect Christian life, for they are the very source of all apostolic fruitfulness."
In light of the teachings of St. Pius X, I second the challenge laid out in "One Bread, One Body" to read the entire NT during this Easter Season. See what scripture itself says about the charisms.

I did not seek membership in a particular movement. As already stated, I would not return the gifts I have received even if I could. I knew full well the objections I would face when I accepted these gifts, the main reason I immediately made an appointment with my pastor to describe my experience. Receipt of the gifts did not change the outcome of the crisis I faced. Knowledge of God dwelling within my heart and being with me during every moment of my life gave me a Peace I would not otherwise have experienced during a very trying time. He gave me the strength to forgive, to move forward along the path He had chosen for my life.