Author Topic: Charismatic Renewal Defended  (Read 2903 times)

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Offline stevusmagnus

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Charismatic Renewal Defended
« on: April 05, 2010, 02:16:33 PM »
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  • It seems my post on the "Charismatic Renewal" struck a nerve.

    Here is my post:

    Quote
    The "Charismatic Renewal" is nothing more than Pentecostal (heretical and irreverent) worship practices and theology being adopted by some Catholics.

    It is especially dangerous because it opens the door to demonic influence. Many claiming to be "speaking in tongues" are being obsessed by demons.

    There is a story that recalls Bishop Sheen being taken to see a charismatic service. One of the participants started "speaking in tongues" in Hebrew, a language the Bishop understood. He told his companion they needed to leave at once as the speaker, unknowingly, had just blasphemed God!

    Here is video evidence that the "Charismatic Renewal" is not Catholic and all Catholics should stay far, far away.

    http://www.youtube.com/user/cfnjjv#p/a/u/0/d-Eg7via3q8

    Offline stevusmagnus

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    Charismatic Renewal Defended
    « Reply #1 on: April 05, 2010, 02:18:19 PM »
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  • Response:

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    At this point it's time for me to disclose some information, of which likely won't matter to some. I live in Ottawa, Ontario Canada. Been here since 2000 when I moved here for college. Ten minutes from my apartment is a Church called Saint Mary's. They have perpetual Adoration there, which is wonderful. A very Eucharistic centered parish,

    The Church is the home base for a group of priests called the "Companions of the Cross". They are "a community of Roman Catholic priests, which is Eucharistic, Charismatic, Marian and Magisterial". They've been around for a few years now, and are actively involved in several activities in Ottawa. Pro-Eucharist, Pro-Mary, Pro-Life, Pro-TRUE Marriage, Pro-NFP, Pro-ROME. You name it, they do it. They truly are an orthodox community who are charismatic.

    A few years pass. In 2002, at Notre Dame Cathedral in Ottawa, they celebrated becoming a Society of Apostolic Life. This, of course, was a result with official approval from the Vatican. Notable people within the Vatican at that time was one Pope John Paul II, and our current Pope Benedict XVI (then the head of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith). This means, from the top on down, the methodology used and taught by the Companions of the Cross was....is....and continues to be.....promoted and endorsed by the Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church.


    Think about this. And think about the implications based on what some (most recently Steve) have said. This group who lists in their mission "charismatic" was granted this status. This is not a tacit approval, this is an outright no-joke APPROVAL with a large APPROVED stamp.

    Think about this.


    There's no point of arguing or discussing things with certain people. Some of the people who have posted in this thread will, despite all that is shown to them, will simply not listen. They will continue to have their pre-conceived notions. "Heretics". "Modernists". 'Liberals". They'll say what they say, and continue to keep their ears plugged on this matter. They do not bother to ask or talk about beliefs, they simply just assume and accuse. I've asked a couple of these people to send me a PM to see if our orthodoxies are similar. No responses yet, probably because it's easier to accuse and assume others.


    Now make no mistake, I'm an adherent to the principles set forth by Saint Francis of Assisi, and I've been very vocal about that on these boards (some day I will join the SFO. Not a matter of "if", but "when"). But I know Father Robert Bedard. I know the Companions of the Cross. I know what they teach, their formation process. I've heard their sermons, I've heard talks. You will be hard pressed to find anyone more orthodox than them, and this isn't lip service. I refuse to sit here and have you continue to deface what they do.

    Father Bob Bedard is an old man now, and his health is failing. Dementia has set in, and tragically he doesn't have much time yet. He has long set his duties has head of the order aside, with the current person charge being Father Scott McCaig. I know Father Scott, and you would be hard pressed to find a better priest (or a better man). But by saying what you all say, you mock a great man of God, one who took his vision and made something of it. Instead of breaking away from Rome, he ran to Rome. He embraced Rome. He embraced the Eucharist, he embraced Our Mother. There is no coincidence the home base of the Companions of the Cross has Perpetual Adoration at a Church named after St. Mary. He remained obedient. He was rewarded, and I firmly believe that he will be rewarded when he passes on. Some of you ask for people to be respectful to the work performed by Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre. Yet here the same people defame the work performed by Father Bob Bedard and his Order.


    This, of course, does not include other groups involved within the charismatic movement. This does not include those allied with St. Francis of Assisi. When the time comes I (and likely my wife as well) will join them fraternally through the SFO. Do not defame my future brothers (and sisters). Do not defame the legacy of a man who I owe my life to. I came back to the Church due to a conference at the U of S, run by Franciscans.

    My birthday? October 4th.

    There are no such things as coincidences. There's not a doubt in my mind he's been interceding for me my whole life up until that point. He brought me to his legacy, and through the Grace of God and as working as instruments to His will....that legacy brought me home to Rome.

    I'm not alone with this, others have been impacted as well. But in my case, it's fairly obvious, Too many things come together in such a way that it only makes sense. But please; stop defaming the legacy of this man, Saint Francis.


    And stop defaming the works of those who have been TIRELESS in their efforts to promote the TRUTH of the Roman Catholic Faith.


    Offline Alexandria

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    Charismatic Renewal Defended
    « Reply #2 on: April 05, 2010, 02:24:22 PM »
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  • It's easy to develop a schismatic attitude after reading this drivel.  Who would want to be "in communion" with these people?

    Offline stevusmagnus

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    Charismatic Renewal Defended
    « Reply #3 on: April 05, 2010, 02:26:45 PM »
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  • My latest:

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    I am in no way judging the interior dispositions or sincerity of the priests of that order or yours.

    I am simply pointing out the fact that their Pentecostal worship methods are not Catholic and irreverent and they play with fire with their "slain in the spirit" and "tongues" practices, etc. This was common knowledge before VCII.

    The Vatican has approved all sorts of nonsense in recent years including CITH, Girl Altar Boys, and the Neocatechumenal Way. They also heartily endorsed the Legionaries even though their founder was fathering children and abusing seminarians. So "approval" these days is hardly a reason to not discern carefully whether Catholics should participate in such movements.

    I commend your desire to grow in holiness and your wanting to be a part of the Church bu this movement has it's roots in Protestantism and although they are trying their best to stick to some Traditional beliefs and practices, they are unknowingly practicing a sort of schizophrenic theology where one attempts to believe as a Catholic while worshiping like a Pentecostal. This cannot help but cause confusion and dissonance in the soul.

    I pray for all involved in the Charismatic movement that they may some day come to the worship God ordained for Himself enshrined in the ancient Rites and ceremonies of the Church.

    Offline stevusmagnus

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    « Reply #4 on: April 05, 2010, 03:27:57 PM »
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  • Quote
    stevusmagnus,
    While I myself am not, and have never considered myself, charismatic, I have spent a good deal of time among the charismatics. The form of worship that they utilize is the Ordinary Form of the Mass as well as the Liturgy of the Hours. Where you get the idea that these are "Pentecostal" or "Protestant" is beyond me (unless of course you're calling the Ordinary Form itself into question).

    Claiming that the Renewal came out of Pentecostal Protestantism and is therefore bad is the similar to claiming that Protestantism came out of the Roman Catholic Church and is therefore good. Or, that since Protestantism is bad (if you want to use that logic), and it came from the Roman Catholic Church, then the Roman Catholic Church must be bad. It's simply logical fallacy.

    Finally, if by charismatic worship you're referring to prayer meetings and "praise and worship," then let me remind you that spontaneous worship (outside of the Mass or Hours), even spontaneous worship utilizing music and contemporary musical instruments, is a very ancient thing. One simply has to look at the Psalms and at the various actions of King David before the Ark of the Covenant to see that not all worship is strictly ritualized. Nor is all worship strictly interior with no exterior element. Worship is meant to engage the entire person, body, mind and soul, not just the mind and soul.

    As has been said before, yes things within the Renewal can be carried to an extreme. But things within the "traditionalist" movement can, and have, been carried to an extreme (one has only to think of the questionable status of the SSPX and the schismatic/heretical status of the sedevacantists and the various anti-Popes carousing around the U.S. claiming to be the "traditional" remnant of the Catholic Church).


    Offline stevusmagnus

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    Charismatic Renewal Defended
    « Reply #5 on: April 05, 2010, 03:29:02 PM »
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  • Quote
    Yet another layman who claims to have greater insight than both JPII and the current pope....

    Offline Alexandria

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    Charismatic Renewal Defended
    « Reply #6 on: April 05, 2010, 03:35:31 PM »
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  • Sanctimonious hot air!

    Almost all of them talk with the same condescending tone.  As I've said many times, they and the conciliar church deserve one another.

    Offline stevusmagnus

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    Charismatic Renewal Defended
    « Reply #7 on: April 05, 2010, 03:39:31 PM »
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  • And they call us condescending and sanctimonious! Haha. ;)


    Offline stevusmagnus

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    Charismatic Renewal Defended
    « Reply #8 on: April 05, 2010, 04:01:31 PM »
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  • Offline stevusmagnus

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    Charismatic Renewal Defended
    « Reply #9 on: April 05, 2010, 05:46:13 PM »
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  • Here was his (amazing) answer:

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by stevusmagnus  
    Do you believe this is appropriate Catholic worship?


    http://www.youtube.com/user/cfnjjv#p/a/u/0/d-Eg7via3q8

    Quote
    After watching the video, I can say that if the context is understood, nothing is inappropriate. You must remember that "Praise and Worship," "Holy Hour," and "Slain in the Spirit Sessions" ARE NOT part of the Mass. If you think that the Mass is the ONLY way that we can worship, then you are gravely mistaken. The Mass excerpt that was shown had no inappropriate practices. I think you need to realize that you cannot put God in a box.

    Offline stevusmagnus

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    « Reply #10 on: April 05, 2010, 05:54:06 PM »
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  • Quote from: I
    Unfortunately, this confirms you have no Catholic sensibility. If you did, your Catholic conscience would run in horror from the video, as any faithful Catholic would have Pre-VCII before they were "desensitized". The crisis is so grave that "Catholics" now see nothing wrong with heretical Pentecostal "prayer" methods which originated outside the Church, are alien to Her, and open the door to demonic influence.

    The Charismatics are the ones who "put God in a box" and dictate to God how it is that He shall be worshiped, ignoring God's instructions on how to properly worship Him which were given for 1960 years.


    Offline stevusmagnus

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    Charismatic Renewal Defended
    « Reply #11 on: April 05, 2010, 06:15:36 PM »
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    For anybody who thinks the charisms are a new phenomenon, I would recommend reading the various lives of Saints, including the Autobiography of Saint Ignatius and the Little Flowers of St. Francis.
    It is the non-Catholic churches which rejected the pentecostal expression of some of their members leading to the establishment of The Pentecostal Holiness church and the Assembly of God.
    I had a conversation with a non-Catholic once (a Baptist) who denied the reality of miracles after the time of the Apostles. This is contrary to the rich stories of Saints who used their charisms to heal others or held conversations with a Living God.

    Every group to which I have belonged has stressed the importance of discernment, of submission to the magisterium of the Church.

    Offline stevusmagnus

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    Charismatic Renewal Defended
    « Reply #12 on: April 05, 2010, 07:21:11 PM »
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    I do not respond well to personal insults. The Holy SPirit has been giving these gifts since the Day of Pentecost.

    Offline stevusmagnus

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    « Reply #13 on: April 05, 2010, 07:21:52 PM »
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    stevusmagnus,
    I must ask whether or not you believe that the Ordinary Form of the Mass is even valid. The bolded part of your statement above is what makes me ask this question. It also betrays an extremely limited knowledge/view of the Roman Rite of the Mass as well as all the other Latin Rite Masses that have existed and continue to the present day (not to mention the wider context that includes all the various liturgies celebrated in the Christian East [of which I am a member]). Christ did not give us the Tridentine Missal at the Last Supper. Neither has the Tridentine Mass always been the same throughout the ages. I've read that were the Missal of 1962 celebrated for someone who lived immediately after Trent, it would be unrecognizable to that person (forgive me, but I don't remember my source, possibly "History and Future of the Roman Liturgy").

    I also note that you've shifted your arguements from Pentecostal "worship" to Pentecostal "prayer methods." I must ask, what makes you an authority in prayer methods and who gives you the authority to judge whether a prayer method is authentic/appropriate or not. I also second the motion that you read the lives and writings of the great saints and see what their "prayer methods" were. A cursory look at St. Teresa of Avila and St. Francis of Assisi will reveal prayer lives that were both heavily emotional as well as contemplative. Also, looking at the writings of Sts. Teresa of Avila and John of the Cross will demonstrate to you that things like "resting in the Spirit" (what they might consider a lower form of ecstacy), visions, locutions, etc. were/are and have always been very common in the spiritual life, especially among those who are actively seeking a deeper relationship with God. They would also emphasize submitting one's experiences to a spiritual guide and to the appropriate authorities of the Church. This is something which most charismatics are very scrupulous about doing.

    Finally, before you stand as judge over Franciscan University of Steubenville and what goes on there, I must point out that their entire faculty take an oath of fidelity to the Magisterium at the beginning of every new school year. The University is also very dear to and loved by Pope Benedict XVI (presuming you give any credence to our current Holy Father).

    Offline Raoul76

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    « Reply #14 on: April 05, 2010, 07:29:56 PM »
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    Pro-Eucharist, Pro-Mary, Pro-Life, Pro-TRUE Marriage, Pro-NFP, Pro-ROME


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    Pro-Eucharist, Pro-Mary, Pro-Life, Pro-TRUE Marriage, Pro-NFP, Pro-ROME

    That reminds me, it's time for another NFP thread.  I am going to take one more shot at this topic, and this time I am cool enough to listen to objections.  

    That Father Cantalamessa character has something to do with Charismatic Renewal.  It's another of those Vatican II concepts that are maddening and deleterious without being heretical.  

    Let's face it, the apostles at Pentecost spoke in tongues.  The problem is that Vatican II Catholics are not Apostles, and this ain't no Pentecost, unless it's the descent of the Holy Ghost's evil twin.
    As I was a new convert when posting here, my posts are often full of error, even unwitting heresy and rash judgment, all of which I renounce, and all my writings are best avoided -- MDLS

     

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