Author Topic: Chance I could give up SVism IF... (Read 1599 times)

soulguard · « **on:** February 18, 2014, 02:27:37 PM »

Someone proposed to me a reason why Francis is a valid pope despite he being a heretic and outside the church. Apparently all of my beliefs about excommunication are of no consequence because of jurisdiction. Please read the thread in this link and explain if he is wrong or right, because as for now, I wonder whether I am right in this matter. I dont know what to think now.

this thread

JohnAnthonyMarie · « **Reply #1 on:** February 18, 2014, 08:32:40 PM »

My heartfelt advice would be to consider the observations which appear to support your conclusion as personal revelations. Test your assumptions, prove your theories, be your greatest critic, and convince yourself, only then you can be an aid to others.

No one can argue that the past fifty years has not dramatically changed the Catholic Church. The very name, novus ordo, is a clear indicator of the modern orientation.

Either, this change is a development of the past, or it is a departure from the past.

In my personal observation and experience, the modern Catholic practices have been made to replace traditional Catholic practices in a manner that more resembles theatrics than worship.

Frances · « **Reply #2 on:** February 19, 2014, 08:15:59 AM »

:dancing-banana:
For me it boils down to whether anyone on earth possesses Authority fom God to declare the Pope not the Pope. I think not. Correction can come only from Heaven. We have the present Francis as punishment for our sins. He is the embodiment of the fruits of V2 magnified and on display for the world to mock. God is showing the Church to Herself in a mirror in hopes that she will wake up and do something about it. Sadly, that is not happening. A just God must go through the motions even if He knows His children will not benefit from the punishment.
Another problem with sv is the only logical conclusion is to elect a Pope. So, how many "popes" are out there right now?

soulguard · « **Reply #3 on:** February 19, 2014, 08:42:22 AM »

Quote from: Frances

:dancing-banana:
For me it boils down to whether anyone on earth possesses Authority fom God to declare the Pope not the Pope. I think not. Correction can come only from Heaven. We have the present Francis as punishment for our sins. He is the embodiment of the fruits of V2 magnified and on display for the world to mock. God is showing the Church to Herself in a mirror in hopes that she will wake up and do something about it. Sadly, that is not happening. A just God must go through the motions even if He knows His children will not benefit from the punishment.
Another problem with sv is the only logical conclusion is to elect a Pope. So, how many "popes" are out there right now?

That is stupid reasoning. God has not withdrawn His grace from the church because there are still Traditional Catholics around. God did not inflict Francis on us if the man is not the head of the Catholic church. Also, the handful of men claiming to be the pope is not an argument against sedevacantism. It is the most ridiculous argument because some delusional person who claims to be the pope has nothing to do with the question of the traditional bishops meeting and electing one of their number to be a traditional pope. The answer to this crisis is to break away 100% from the vatican establishment and begin an alternative hierarchy, one made up of men who have the faith.
IMO

Frances · « **Reply #4 on:** February 19, 2014, 08:58:46 AM »

Quote from: soulguard

Quote from: Frances
:dancing-banana:
For me it boils down to whether anyone on earth possesses Authority fom God to declare the Pope not the Pope. I think not. Correction can come only from Heaven. We have the present Francis as punishment for our sins. He is the embodiment of the fruits of V2 magnified and on display for the world to mock. God is showing the Church to Herself in a mirror in hopes that she will wake up and do something about it. Sadly, that is not happening. A just God must go through the motions even if He knows His children will not benefit from the punishment.
Another problem with sv is the only logical conclusion is to elect a Pope. So, how many "popes" are out there right now?

That is stupid reasoning. God has not withdrawn His grace from the church because there are still Traditional Catholics around. God did not inflict Francis on us if the man is not the head of the Catholic church. Also, the handful of men claiming to be the pope is not an argument against sedevacantism. It is the most ridiculous argument because some delusional person who claims to be the pope has nothing to do with the question of the traditional bishops meeting and electing one of their number to be a traditional pope. The answer to this crisis is to break away 100% from the vatican establishment and begin an alternative hierarchy, one made up of men who have the faith.
IMO

:dancing-banana:
Someone already did as you suggest. His name was Martin Luther. You're right that God hasn't withdrawn His grace. He only punishes those whom He loves. Why not look at the present situation as an opportunity to atone for sins of the past 50 years. Or are traditional catholics so holy as to deserve exemption?

Thurifer · « **Reply #5 on:** February 19, 2014, 09:09:52 AM »

If only things were so simple as the real pope was usurped in 1958. Everything would make sense. But I'm afraid it is more complicated than that and the situation is much worse.

Since WWII, and especially since VII, we have seen the complete Judiazation of the Church. That's basically it. As far as I'm concerned the Church has also entered into its own version of Sola Scriptura. The New Mass and the way the Sacraments are now received and perceived.

The 1961 Divine Office is so heavily an Old Testament affair that I don't know where to begin. On most days you have nine psalms straight through with 3 lessons. The Pater, Ave and Credo has been removed at the beginning along with many prayers at Prime and Lauds, Vespers and Compline.

They have also heavily edited the lessons concerning the Saints and have suppressed the supernatural acts and miracles that used to be included.

Either way, today's Office according to 1961 rubrics would give you nine psalms and 3 lessons from Genesis at Matins. The only thing uniquely Catholic would be the Collect and the Hymn. Now it is true that DA would be very similar. Big difference however, would be the opening prayer asking for Christ's intercession and help and the triple prayer of the Pater, Ave and Credo.

Oh well, I did not mean to sidetrack quite so much about the Office. But I do think it is relevant. Just wanted to point out that not only was the Mass made more in line with Protestantism. Even the 1961 Office is in my opinion. But most people don't have the opportunity to have seen that very clearly.

JohnAnthonyMarie · « **Reply #6 on:** February 19, 2014, 09:17:45 AM »

Quote

94. This worldliness can be fuelled in two deeply interrelated ways. One is the attraction of gnosticism, a purely subjective faith whose only interest is a certain experience or a set of ideas and bits of information which are meant to console and enlighten, but which ultimately keep one imprisoned in his or her own thoughts and feelings. The other is the self-absorbed promethean neopelagianism of those who ultimately trust only in their own powers and feel superior to others because they observe certain rules or remain intransigently faithful to a particular Catholic style from the past. A supposed soundness of doctrine or discipline leads instead to a narcissistic and authoritarian elitism, whereby instead of evangelizing, one analyzes and classifies others, and instead of opening the door to grace, one exhausts his or her energies in inspecting and verifying. In neither case is one really concerned about Jesus Christ or others. These are manifestations of an anthropocentric immanentism. It is impossible to think that a genuine evangelizing thrust could emerge from these adulterated forms of Christianity.

[/url]

Extract from the Vatican webpage's
APOSTOLIC EXHORTATION EVANGELII GAUDIUM OF THE HOLY FATHER FRANCIS
TO THE BISHOPS, CLERGY, CONSECRATED PERSONS AND THE LAY FAITHFUL
ON THE PROCLAMATION OF THE GOSPEL IN TODAY’S WORLD

Ladislaus · « **Reply #7 on:** February 19, 2014, 09:28:58 AM »

What heresy does Francis I hold?

SVs glibly throw out the accusation that he's a heretic, but it's typically based upon general perception, and rarely can they make a concrete docuмented case for his heresy.

I ask this while knowing which heresy he holds. It's none other than the same heresy promoted by LoT, SJB, Ambrose, et al. regarding ecclesiology and soteriology. And, if I believed what LoT, SJB, Ambrose, et al. say regarding BoD and ecclesiology and soteriology, then I would say Francis is not guity of any heresy that I know of.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #8 on:** February 19, 2014, 09:30:42 AM »

Quote from: JohnAnthonyMarie

Quote
94. This worldliness can be fuelled in two deeply interrelated ways. One is the attraction of gnosticism, a purely subjective faith whose only interest is a certain experience or a set of ideas and bits of information which are meant to console and enlighten, but which ultimately keep one imprisoned in his or her own thoughts and feelings. The other is the self-absorbed promethean neopelagianism of those who ultimately trust only in their own powers and feel superior to others because they observe certain rules or remain intransigently faithful to a particular Catholic style from the past. A supposed soundness of doctrine or discipline leads instead to a narcissistic and authoritarian elitism, whereby instead of evangelizing, one analyzes and classifies others, and instead of opening the door to grace, one exhausts his or her energies in inspecting and verifying. In neither case is one really concerned about Jesus Christ or others. These are manifestations of an anthropocentric immanentism. It is impossible to think that a genuine evangelizing thrust could emerge from these adulterated forms of Christianity.
[/url]

Extract from the Vatican webpage's
APOSTOLIC EXHORTATION EVANGELII GAUDIUM OF THE HOLY FATHER FRANCIS
TO THE BISHOPS, CLERGY, CONSECRATED PERSONS AND THE LAY FAITHFUL
ON THE PROCLAMATION OF THE GOSPEL IN TODAY’S WORLD

There couldn't have been a more eloquent statement of LoT, SJB, and Ambrose's ecclesiology.

JohnAnthonyMarie · « **Reply #9 on:** February 19, 2014, 09:31:31 AM »

in·tran·si·gent
adjective

: completely unwilling to change : very stubborn
: characterized by refusal to compromise or to abandon an extreme position or attitude : uncompromising <intransigent in their opposition> <an intransigent attitude>
— intransigent noun
— in·tran·si·gent·ly adverb

JohnAnthonyMarie · « **Reply #10 on:** February 19, 2014, 09:42:30 AM »

faith·ful
adjective

: having or showing true and constant support or loyalty
: deserving trust : keeping your promises or doing what you are supposed to do

JohnAnthonyMarie · « **Reply #11 on:** February 19, 2014, 09:55:23 AM »

Si si, no? No?

crossbro · « **Reply #12 on:** February 19, 2014, 10:46:50 AM »

Quote from: soulguard

Someone proposed to me a reason why Francis is a valid pope despite he being a heretic and outside the church. Apparently all of my beliefs about excommunication are of no consequence because of jurisdiction. Please read the thread in this link and explain if he is wrong or right, because as for now, I wonder whether I am right in this matter. I dont know what to think now.

this thread

I will give you three valid reasons that will change your mind right here:

1)....

2)....

3).....

Okay. I FAILED.

crossbro · « **Reply #13 on:** February 19, 2014, 10:49:30 AM »

Quote from: Ladislaus

What heresy does Francis I hold?

SVs glibly throw out the accusation that he's a heretic, but it's typically based upon general perception, and rarely can they make a concrete docuмented case for his heresy.

I ask this while knowing which heresy he holds. It's none other than the same heresy promoted by LoT, SJB, Ambrose, et al. regarding ecclesiology and soteriology. And, if I believed what LoT, SJB, Ambrose, et al. say regarding BoD and ecclesiology and soteriology, then I would say Francis is not guity of any heresy that I know of.

He said that atheists can go to heaven, Jesus said they cannot.

So who is the heretic ? Pope Francis or Jesus ?

Ladislaus · « **Reply #14 on:** February 19, 2014, 12:55:23 PM »

Quote from: crossbro

He said that atheists can go to heaven,

Did he actually say that? I recall a quote that was much more vague and confused. Regardless, most Traditional Catholics would say this also ... if these atheists labor in "invincible ignorance".