Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: Catholics Cannot Reject the Council  (Read 14006 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Santo Subito

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 600
  • Reputation: +84/-2
  • Gender: Male
Catholics Cannot Reject the Council
« on: July 26, 2011, 04:33:32 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Responses? Thank you.

    http://www.ewtn.com/library/Theology/SIPVAT2.HTM

    Catholics Cannot Reject the Council

    Sixteen official council docuмents emerged from sessions in which schemata were proposed, altered, replaced, argued, and ultimately voted on. Each of the conciliar docuмents can be parsed back into a written record of such debates and discussion, but there is no need to characterize such debates in terms of obscurantists and enlightened progressives - not even when, as in the case of the Declaration on Religious Liberty, the debate defines itself in terms of such opponents. For in the end, it is the final docuмent that trumps all earlier arguments and discussion. Once voted on and promulgated by the Pope, a conciliar docuмent is no longer the victory of one side or the triumph of a faction: it becomes part of the Magisterium of the Church.

    There is little doubt that, in the minds of many observers, reporters, and even periti, a struggle was going on between the traditionalists and the innovators. Even if this mirrored a struggle among the Fathers of the council, when the dust settled, when the final vote was taken, when a docuмent was approved and promulgated by the Pope, it was the product of the teaching Church. And in Her role as teacher, the Church is guided by the Holy Spirit. Whatever spirited battles took place in the course of the council, the only spirit that matters is the Holy Spirit, whose influence on the promulgated docuмent is guaranteed.

    Studying the record of discussions among the bishops, of drafts of docuмents, and the proposals for change can, of course, aid us in understanding the final approved results. But it is the final docuмents as approved by the bishops and promulgated by the Pope that contain the official teaching of the Catholic Church. And Catholics have a duty to accept the teaching of a council.

    The Catechism of the Catholic Church spells out the infallibility of an ecuмenical council:

    "The Roman Pontiff, head of the college of bishops, enjoys this infallibility in virtue of his office, when, as supreme pastor and teacher of the faithful - who confirms his brethren in the Faith - he proclaims by a definitive act a doctrine pertaining to Faith or morals.... The infallibility promised to the Church is also present in the body of bishops when, together with Peter's successor, they exercise the supreme Magisterium," above all in an ecuмenical council.20

    Consequently, the teachings of the Second Vatican Council are the official teachings of the Church. That is why the more than thirty years that have passed since the close of the council are evaluated by the Church in the light of the council.

    That is why Paul VI and John Paul II have regarded their papacies as dedicated to the implementation of what was decided during those fateful three years of the council.

    That is why rejecting the council is simply not an option for Catholics.

    And that is why Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre's schismatic movement involved an internal incoherence. He sought to appeal to earlier councils in order to discredit Vatican II. But that which guarantees the truth of the teaching of one council guarantees the truth of them all. Popes Paul VI and John Paul II exhibited a long patience with Archbishop Lefebvre. Eventually, he undertook to consecrate new bishops in defiance of the Vatican, and no more patience was possible. He was excommunicated. 21



    Offline MyrnaM

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 6273
    • Reputation: +3628/-347
    • Gender: Female
      • Myforever.blog/blog
    Catholics Cannot Reject the Council
    « Reply #1 on: July 26, 2011, 04:43:29 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Catholics must reject Vatican II because it is not Catholic.
    Please pray for my soul.
    R.I.P. 8/17/22

    My new blog @ https://myforever.blog/blog/


    Offline parentsfortruth

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 3821
    • Reputation: +2664/-26
    • Gender: Female
    Catholics Cannot Reject the Council
    « Reply #2 on: July 26, 2011, 04:46:47 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I have a question:

    Why are you here, SantoSubito?
    Matthew 5:37

    But let your speech be yea, yea: no, no: and that which is over and above these, is of evil.

    My Avatar is Fr. Hector Bolduc. He was a faithful parish priest in De Pere, WI,

    Offline Santo Subito

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 600
    • Reputation: +84/-2
    • Gender: Male
    Catholics Cannot Reject the Council
    « Reply #3 on: July 26, 2011, 04:49:47 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: parentsfortruth
    I have a question:

    Why are you here, SantoSubito?


    Thank you for your question.

    I am here because I would like to experience some Traditional counter-arguments to some of the "conservative" Catholic arguments I have heard against Traditionalism. This post sums up one such argument.

    Offline Santo Subito

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 600
    • Reputation: +84/-2
    • Gender: Male
    Catholics Cannot Reject the Council
    « Reply #4 on: July 26, 2011, 04:50:51 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: MyrnaM
    Catholics must reject Vatican II because it is not Catholic.


    How can a Catholic Council not be Catholic?


    Offline LordPhan

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1171
    • Reputation: +826/-1
    • Gender: Male
    Catholics Cannot Reject the Council
    « Reply #5 on: July 26, 2011, 04:51:31 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: Santo Subito
    Responses? Thank you.

    http://www.ewtn.com/library/Theology/SIPVAT2.HTM

    Catholics Cannot Reject the Council

    Sixteen official council docuмents emerged from sessions in which schemata were proposed, altered, replaced, argued, and ultimately voted on. Each of the conciliar docuмents can be parsed back into a written record of such debates and discussion, but there is no need to characterize such debates in terms of obscurantists and enlightened progressives - not even when, as in the case of the Declaration on Religious Liberty, the debate defines itself in terms of such opponents. For in the end, it is the final docuмent that trumps all earlier arguments and discussion. Once voted on and promulgated by the Pope, a conciliar docuмent is no longer the victory of one side or the triumph of a faction: it becomes part of the Magisterium of the Church.

    There is little doubt that, in the minds of many observers, reporters, and even periti, a struggle was going on between the traditionalists and the innovators. Even if this mirrored a struggle among the Fathers of the council, when the dust settled, when the final vote was taken, when a docuмent was approved and promulgated by the Pope, it was the product of the teaching Church. And in Her role as teacher, the Church is guided by the Holy Spirit. Whatever spirited battles took place in the course of the council, the only spirit that matters is the Holy Spirit, whose influence on the promulgated docuмent is guaranteed.

    Studying the record of discussions among the bishops, of drafts of docuмents, and the proposals for change can, of course, aid us in understanding the final approved results. But it is the final docuмents as approved by the bishops and promulgated by the Pope that contain the official teaching of the Catholic Church. And Catholics have a duty to accept the teaching of a council.

    The Catechism of the Catholic Church spells out the infallibility of an ecuмenical council:

    "The Roman Pontiff, head of the college of bishops, enjoys this infallibility in virtue of his office, when, as supreme pastor and teacher of the faithful - who confirms his brethren in the Faith - he proclaims by a definitive act a doctrine pertaining to Faith or morals.... The infallibility promised to the Church is also present in the body of bishops when, together with Peter's successor, they exercise the supreme Magisterium," above all in an ecuмenical council.20

    Consequently, the teachings of the Second Vatican Council are the official teachings of the Church. That is why the more than thirty years that have passed since the close of the council are evaluated by the Church in the light of the council.

    That is why Paul VI and John Paul II have regarded their papacies as dedicated to the implementation of what was decided during those fateful three years of the council.

    That is why rejecting the council is simply not an option for Catholics.

    And that is why Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre's schismatic movement involved an internal incoherence. He sought to appeal to earlier councils in order to discredit Vatican II. But that which guarantees the truth of the teaching of one council guarantees the truth of them all. Popes Paul VI and John Paul II exhibited a long patience with Archbishop Lefebvre. Eventually, he undertook to consecrate new bishops in defiance of the Vatican, and no more patience was possible. He was excommunicated. 21



    This is article is so full of error it's not even funny. You sir are an idiot. It calls Marcel Lefebre a schismatic, yet the Congregation for the Docrine of the Faith headed by then Cardinal Ratzinger and signed by said Cardinal who is currently the Pope states that the SSPX is not and was not in Schism. Thus this article itself contradicts the Congragation of the Docrtrine of the Faith and the current Pope since you believe that he is the Pope and you believe you owe him due obedience you are blatantly commiting a schistatic act. The Case of the Hawaii Six is precedent setting and those who call the SSPX Schismatics are in and of themselves in schism of the Concillar churches rulings which I find quite Ironic.

    Paul VI declared the Second Vatican Council to be Pastoral, he also said he purposefully made sure it was not dogmatic and didn't invoke the realm of infallibilty. The Neo-Cath's believing that it is the same as those that did invoke infallibilty are the most retarded people on the face of the planet.

    The Neo-Caths are essentially saying "The Pope is wrong, he's always Right!"
    This has to be the most illogical thinking i've ever seen, a child would know this. At least a non-brainwashed one.


    Offline LordPhan

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1171
    • Reputation: +826/-1
    • Gender: Male
    Catholics Cannot Reject the Council
    « Reply #6 on: July 26, 2011, 04:53:17 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: Santo Subito
    Quote from: MyrnaM
    Catholics must reject Vatican II because it is not Catholic.


    How can a Catholic Council not be Catholic?


    It wasn't a Catholic Council, I suggest you read "Vatican 2, the Best Council the Protestants ever Had"


    Offline LordPhan

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1171
    • Reputation: +826/-1
    • Gender: Male
    Catholics Cannot Reject the Council
    « Reply #7 on: July 26, 2011, 04:54:56 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • You should also read the Problems of the Liturgical Reform, the Catechism of Trent, the Canons and Decrees of the Council of Trent, Which Bible should you read, A Short History of the Roman Mass, and The Church Teaches.



    Offline Santo Subito

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 600
    • Reputation: +84/-2
    • Gender: Male
    Catholics Cannot Reject the Council
    « Reply #8 on: July 26, 2011, 04:58:56 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Phan,

    Thank you for your response. The post is part of a book called "What Went Wrong With Vatican II" by Ralph McInerny. In his defense, it was written in 1998. I think that was before the Vatican made clear the SSPX is not in formal schism.

    Offline Santo Subito

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 600
    • Reputation: +84/-2
    • Gender: Male
    Catholics Cannot Reject the Council
    « Reply #9 on: July 26, 2011, 05:01:27 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: LordPhan
    Quote from: Santo Subito
    Quote from: MyrnaM
    Catholics must reject Vatican II because it is not Catholic.


    How can a Catholic Council not be Catholic?


    It wasn't a Catholic Council, I suggest you read "Vatican 2, the Best Council the Protestants ever Had"



    But how can you say VCII was not a Catholic Council when the docuмents were approved by the world's bishops and promulgated lawfully by the Pope? Certainly the Vatican II docuмents came from the Catholic Church via a valid Council. It what sense do you mean it was "not Catholic"?

    Thank you.

    Offline MyrnaM

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 6273
    • Reputation: +3628/-347
    • Gender: Female
      • Myforever.blog/blog
    Catholics Cannot Reject the Council
    « Reply #10 on: July 26, 2011, 05:24:21 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: Santo Subito
    Quote from: LordPhan
    Quote from: Santo Subito
    Quote from: MyrnaM
    Catholics must reject Vatican II because it is not Catholic.


    How can a Catholic Council not be Catholic?


    It wasn't a Catholic Council, I suggest you read "Vatican 2, the Best Council the Protestants ever Had"



    But how can you say VCII was not a Catholic Council when the docuмents were approved by the world's bishops and promulgated lawfully by the Pope? Certainly the Vatican II docuмents came from the Catholic Church via a valid Council. It what sense do you mean it was "not Catholic"?

    Thank you.


    Quote
    Matthew 13;25 while men were asleep, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat
    Please pray for my soul.
    R.I.P. 8/17/22

    My new blog @ https://myforever.blog/blog/


    Offline s2srea

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 5106
    • Reputation: +3896/-48
    • Gender: Male
    Catholics Cannot Reject the Council
    « Reply #11 on: July 26, 2011, 05:29:43 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • You know what would be funny if it wasn't so sad... that if the tables were turned most anywhere else (that is, if SantoSubito was a Tradtionalist on a mainstream VII-Supporting forum) he would be immediately banned.

    I don't know why but there is something reassuring in that.

    Santo Subito- thank you for the discourse. I'm sure you will find many here able to answer ALL of your questions far more completely and intelligently than I. So I pray that your spirit is one which seeks Truth, and not simple debate. God bless you brother.

    Offline s2srea

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 5106
    • Reputation: +3896/-48
    • Gender: Male
    Catholics Cannot Reject the Council
    « Reply #12 on: July 26, 2011, 05:46:54 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I'm curious how NeoCaths would respond if we magically had a council which re-established tradition, and subsequently made a new religion, based on those teachings, theology, dogma, doctrine and liturgy of pre-Vatican II.  :scratchchin:

    Offline Exilenomore

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 720
    • Reputation: +584/-36
    • Gender: Male
    Catholics Cannot Reject the Council
    « Reply #13 on: July 26, 2011, 05:57:48 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: Santo Subito
    Quote from: MyrnaM
    Catholics must reject Vatican II because it is not Catholic.


    How can a Catholic Council not be Catholic?


    A Council is Catholic when it is convened by the legitimate Pontiff.

    Offline roscoe

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 7610
    • Reputation: +617/-404
    • Gender: Male
    Catholics Cannot Reject the Council
    « Reply #14 on: July 26, 2011, 06:22:04 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • IOW--there is no such thing as a valid council( pastoral or otherwise) that receives a  placet from an anti-pope.
    There Is No Such Thing As 'Sede Vacantism'...
    nor is there such thing as a 'Feeneyite' or 'Feeneyism'