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Offline LM

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CATHOLICS AND LUTHERANS: CLOSER WITNESS TO THE GOSPEL
« on: December 16, 2010, 11:02:19 PM »
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    Thursday, December 16, 2010
    CATHOLICS AND LUTHERANS: CLOSER WITNESS TO THE GOSPEL

    VATICAN CITY, 16 DEC 2010 (VIS) - This morning in the Vatican, the Holy Father received Bishop Munib A. Younan and Rev. Martin Junge, recently elected as president and secretary general of the Lutheran World Federation, who are leading a delegation on an official visit to Rome.

      Beginning his English-language address to the group, the Pope highlighted "the many significant fruits produced by these decades of bilateral discussions" between Catholics and Lutherans.

      "With God's help it has been possible slowly and patiently to remove barriers and to foster visible bonds of unity by means of theological dialogue and practical co-operation, especially at the level of local communities", he said.

      "Last year marked the tenth anniversary of the signing of the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification", the Pope noted, affirming that this "proved a significant step along the difficult path towards re-establishing full unity among Christians and a stimulus to further ecumenical discussion.

      "In these years leading up to the five-hundredth anniversary of the events of 1517", he added, "Catholics and Lutherans are called to reflect anew on where our journey towards unity has led us and to implore the Lord's guidance and help for the future".

      The Pope expressed his pleasure at the fact that "the International Lutheran - Roman Catholic Commission on Unity is preparing a joint text which will document what Lutherans and Catholics are able to say together at this point regarding our closer relations after almost five centuries of separation. In order to clarify further the understanding of the Church, which is the main focus of ecumenical dialogue today, the Commission is studying the theme: 'Baptism and Growing Church Communion'".

      The Holy Father concluded: "It is my hope that these ecumenical activities will provide fresh opportunities for Catholics and Lutherans to grow closer in their lives, their witness to the Gospel, and their efforts to bring the light of Christ to all dimensions of society".

    http://visnews-en.blogspot.com/2010/12/catholics-and-lutherans-closer-witness.html

    Offline umblehay anmay

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    CATHOLICS AND LUTHERANS: CLOSER WITNESS TO THE GOSPEL
    « Reply #1 on: December 16, 2010, 11:50:12 PM »
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  • "...and their efforts to bring the light of Christ to all dimensions of society". "

    Excuse me, but heretics DO NOT bring the light of Christ to anyone... they spread darkness, error and confusion.


    Offline OHCA

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    CATHOLICS AND LUTHERANS: CLOSER WITNESS TO THE GOSPEL
    « Reply #2 on: December 17, 2010, 01:12:53 AM »
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  • Quote from: LM


    Quote

       
    Thursday, December 16, 2010
    CATHOLICS AND LUTHERANS: CLOSER WITNESS TO THE GOSPEL

    VATICAN CITY, 16 DEC 2010 (VIS) - This morning in the Vatican, the Holy Father received Bishop Munib A. Younan and Rev. Martin Junge, recently elected as president and secretary general of the Lutheran World Federation, who are leading a delegation on an official visit to Rome.

    . . .

      "Last year marked the tenth anniversary of the signing of the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification", the Pope noted, affirming that this "proved a significant step along the difficult path towards re-establishing full unity among Christians and a stimulus to further ecumenical discussion.

    . . .

    http://visnews-en.blogspot.com/2010/12/catholics-and-lutherans-closer-witness.html



    http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_31101999_cath-luth-joint-declaration_en.html


    WOW!  TROUBLING!!


    Cost of Unity? = Water Down Truth + Double-Speak + Blur Lines Right/Wrong & Correct/Incorrect? = Sheep as confused as dying calves in a hailstorm = a less than optimal means for navigating the narrow path to our Reward

    Seeking homogeneity and "unity" with HERETICS?!?

    More nonsense:  http://www.cathnews.com/article.aspx?aeid=12572

    Offline stevusmagnus

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    CATHOLICS AND LUTHERANS: CLOSER WITNESS TO THE GOSPEL
    « Reply #3 on: December 17, 2010, 08:17:47 AM »
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  • I wonder how many Fathers of Trent would die of shock if they were to read this and then be told it came from a future Pope?

    Offline LM

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    CATHOLICS AND LUTHERANS: CLOSER WITNESS TO THE GOSPEL
    « Reply #4 on: December 17, 2010, 08:41:59 AM »
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  • Quote from: stevusmagnus
    I wonder how many Fathers of Trent would die of shock if they were to read this and then be told it came from a future Pope?


    Not only the Fathers of Trent, but the Apostles, Church Fathers, and past Popes who have guarded the integrity of the Faith.


    Offline Roman Catholic

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    CATHOLICS AND LUTHERANS: CLOSER WITNESS TO THE GOSPEL
    « Reply #5 on: December 17, 2010, 09:15:40 AM »
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  • Quote from: stevusmagnus
    I wonder how many Fathers of Trent would die of shock if they were to read this and then be told it came from a future Pope?


    Maybe they would tell you that it's shocking but it did not come from a pope!

    Offline Belloc

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    CATHOLICS AND LUTHERANS: CLOSER WITNESS TO THE GOSPEL
    « Reply #6 on: December 17, 2010, 09:29:46 AM »
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  • waht fruits? conversions? none, renouncing heresy? nope....
    Proud "European American" and prouder, still, Catholic

    Offline stevusmagnus

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    CATHOLICS AND LUTHERANS: CLOSER WITNESS TO THE GOSPEL
    « Reply #7 on: December 17, 2010, 09:29:47 AM »
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  • Quote from: Roman Catholic
    Quote from: stevusmagnus
    I wonder how many Fathers of Trent would die of shock if they were to read this and then be told it came from a future Pope?


    Maybe they would tell you that it's shocking but it did not come from a pope!


    Then they would be overreacting schismatics.


    Offline umblehay anmay

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    CATHOLICS AND LUTHERANS: CLOSER WITNESS TO THE GOSPEL
    « Reply #8 on: December 17, 2010, 10:01:40 AM »
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  • Quote from: stevusmagnus
    Quote from: Roman Catholic
    Quote from: stevusmagnus
    I wonder how many Fathers of Trent would die of shock if they were to read this and then be told it came from a future Pope?


    Maybe they would tell you that it's shocking but it did not come from a pope!


    Then they would be overreacting schismatics.


    Wait...
    If a true Pope declares a previous Pope to have been a heretical anti-pope, we accept that decision, right?

    So why would it not also be accurate that a true Pope could (in the hypothetical situation) declare a future anti-pope to be such if that true Pope from the past used the same reasoning as he used to declare a previous anti-pope to be a heretic?

    Also, look at how you just JUDGED a (albeit hypothetical) true Pope as a schismatic.   You've just done what you say that sedevacantists have no authority to do!


    Offline LM

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    CATHOLICS AND LUTHERANS: CLOSER WITNESS TO THE GOSPEL
    « Reply #9 on: December 17, 2010, 10:20:03 AM »
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  • Quote from: stevusmagnus
    Quote from: Roman Catholic
    Quote from: stevusmagnus
    I wonder how many Fathers of Trent would die of shock if they were to read this and then be told it came from a future Pope?


    Maybe they would tell you that it's shocking but it did not come from a pope!


    Then they would be overreacting schismatics.


    Protestantism is heresy stevus.  Just the idea that these words and pact making came from a man who sits in the Chair of Peter, would be enough to kill not only the Fathers of Trent, but the Apostles themselves.

    So I suggest that you go off and meditate as to who you have called overreacting schismatics.

    Quote

    Christ, the apostles, and the fathers on heresy

    Heresy, in the sense of falling away from the Faith, became possible only after the Faith had been promulgated by Christ. Its advent is clearly foretold, Matthew 24:11, 23-26: " . . . many false prophets shall rise, and shall seduce many. . . . Then if any man shall say to you: Lo here is Christ, or there, do not believe him. For there shall rise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Behold I have told it to you, beforehand. If therefore they shall say to you: Behold he is in the desert, go ye not out: Behold he is in the closets, believe it not." Christ also indicated the marks by which to know the false prophets: "Who is not with me is against me" (Luke 11:23); "and if he will not hear the Church let him be to thee as the heathen and the publican" (Matthew 18:17); "he that believeth not shall be condemned" (Mark 16:16). The Apostles acted upon their Master's directions. All the weight of their own Divine faith and mission is brought to bear upon innovators. "If any one", says St. Paul, "preach to you a gospel, besides that you have received, let him be anathema" (Galatians 1:9). To St. John the heretic is a seducer, an antichrist, a man who dissolves Christ (1 John 4:3; 2 John 7); "receive him not into the house nor say to him, God speed you" (2 John 10). St. Peter, true to his office and to his impetuous nature, assails them as with a two-edged sword: " . . . lying teachers who shall bring in sects of perdition, and deny the Lord who bought them: bringing upon themselves swift destruction . . . These are fountains without water, and clouds tossed with whirlwinds, to whom the mist of darkness is reserved" (2 Peter 2:1, 17). St. Jude speaks in a similar strain throughout his whole epistle. St. Paul admonishes the disturbers of the unity of faith at Corinth that "the weapons of our warfare . . . are mighty to God unto the pulling down of fortifications, destroying counsels, and every height that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God . . . and having in readiness to revenge all disobedience" (2 Corinthians 10:4, 5, 6).

    What Paul did at Corinth he enjoins to be done by every bishop in his own church. Thus Timothy is instructed to "war in them a good warfare, having faith and a good conscience, which some rejecting have made shipwreck concerning the faith. Of whom is Hymeneus and Alexander, whom I have delivered up to Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme" (1 Timothy 1:18-20). He exhorts the ancients of the Church at Ephesus to "take heed to yourselves, and to the whole flock, wherein the Holy Ghost hath placed you bishops, to rule the Church of God, . . . I know that, after my departure, ravening wolves will enter in among you, not sparing the flock . . . Therefore watch, . . ." (Acts 20:28-31). "Beware of dogs", he writes to the Philippians (3:2), the dogs being the same false teachers as the "ravening wolves". The Fathers show no more leniency to perverters of the faith. A Protestant writer thus sketches their teaching (Schaff-Herzog, s.v. Heresy): "Polycarp regarded Marcion as the first-born of the Devil. Ignatius sees in heretics poisonous plants, or animals in human form. Justin and Tertullian condemn their errors as inspirations of the Evil One; Theophilus compares them to barren and rocky islands on which ships are wrecked; and Origen says, that as pirates place lights on cliffs to allure and destroy vessels in quest of refuge, so the Prince of this world lights the fires of false knowledge in order to destroy men. [Jerome calls the congregations of the heretics synagogues of Satan (Ep. 123), and says their communion is to be avoided like that of vipers and scorpions (Ep. 130).]" These primitive views on heresy have been faithfully transmitted and acted on by the Church in subsequent ages. There is no break in the tradition from St. Peter to Pius X.

    Offline stevusmagnus

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    CATHOLICS AND LUTHERANS: CLOSER WITNESS TO THE GOSPEL
    « Reply #10 on: December 17, 2010, 10:24:44 AM »
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  • Fr. Scott..

    http://www.sspx.org/Catholic_FAQs/catholic_faqs__canonical.htm#thucline

    Quote
    However, even were there no doubt at all as to validity, it would still not be permissible to assist at the Masses and receive the sacraments from priests of the Thuc line. For they all hold to the radical sedevacantist position that there is no pope, and that if anybody says that there is a pope, or that he is in communion with the Holy Father, then he is in communion with a heretic and a heretic himself. By maintaining such a position, which makes no distinctions, and takes no account of the confusion in the Church due to the breakdown of authority, they not only condemn every other Catholic to hell fire, but effectively separate themselves off from all other Catholics, and make themselves into a church of their own. They are truly schismatic. It is consequently entirely illicit to have any kind of association with them. As a consequence of their loss of the sense of the Church, they abandon all sense of hierarchy and structure in the Church. Any bishop can consecrate any other bishop at any time, without authority between them. These bishops constantly ordain to the priesthood men who have no preparation or training, who belong to no religious community, and who are consequently entirely independent of one another and all Church authority. Throwing all canonical norms out of the window, they effectively become just as protestant as the modernists they pretend to defend the Church against.


    Offline Belloc

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    CATHOLICS AND LUTHERANS: CLOSER WITNESS TO THE GOSPEL
    « Reply #11 on: December 17, 2010, 01:16:34 PM »
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  • "These bishops constantly ordain to the priesthood men who have no preparation or training, who belong to no religious community, and who are consequently entirely independent of one another and all Church authority"

    biggest issue I have with Thuc lineage.notsaying naything mean about Thuc, nor the men either, but the whole process, preparation,etc is questionable......
    Proud "European American" and prouder, still, Catholic

    Offline Roman Catholic

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    CATHOLICS AND LUTHERANS: CLOSER WITNESS TO THE GOSPEL
    « Reply #12 on: December 17, 2010, 07:34:50 PM »
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  • Quote from: stevusmagnus
    Fr. Scott..

    http://www.sspx.org/Catholic_FAQs/catholic_faqs__canonical.htm#thucline

    Quote
    However, even were there no doubt at all as to validity, it would still not be permissible to assist at the Masses and receive the sacraments from priests of the Thuc line. For they all hold to the radical sedevacantist position that there is no pope, and that if anybody says that there is a pope, or that he is in communion with the Holy Father, then he is in communion with a heretic and a heretic himself. By maintaining such a position, which makes no distinctions, and takes no account of the confusion in the Church due to the breakdown of authority, they not only condemn every other Catholic to hell fire, but effectively separate themselves off from all other Catholics, and make themselves into a church of their own. They are truly schismatic. It is consequently entirely illicit to have any kind of association with them. As a consequence of their loss of the sense of the Church, they abandon all sense of hierarchy and structure in the Church. Any bishop can consecrate any other bishop at any time, without authority between them. These bishops constantly ordain to the priesthood men who have no preparation or training, who belong to no religious community, and who are consequently entirely independent of one another and all Church authority. Throwing all canonical norms out of the window, they effectively become just as protestant as the modernists they pretend to defend the Church against.

     

    Hey Stevus, talk about over-reacting!

    Fr Scott is over-reacting. He is taking an extreme position. He is also generalising too much resulting in a misrepresentation.

    What he says is just his opinion on the subject. He is not the pope and has no authority to declare.

    Other SSPX clerics differ in their opinion.


    Offline Roman Catholic

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    CATHOLICS AND LUTHERANS: CLOSER WITNESS TO THE GOSPEL
    « Reply #13 on: December 17, 2010, 07:50:03 PM »
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  • Quote from: Belloc
    "These bishops constantly ordain to the priesthood men who have no preparation or training, who belong to no religious community, and who are consequently entirely independent of one another and all Church authority"

    biggest issue I have with Thuc lineage.notsaying naything mean about Thuc, nor the men either, but the whole process, preparation,etc is questionable......


    The statement quoted is not accurate.

    This is:

    SOME of those bishops ordain to the priesthood men who have no preparation or training, who belong to no religious community, and who are consequently entirely independent of one another and all Church authority.

    Some Thuc Bishops are very careful to only ordain suitable candidates who have been seminary trained.

    Your issue should not with be with the Thuc lineage as a whole, but with the particular circumstances and clerics that are unacceptable.

    I agree that there are concerns in some cases and I would not ever say all "Thuc clergy" are ok. I would always investigate before associating with any or attending their Masses.

    But we can't legitimately categorize and judge all Thuc line clergy lumping them all together any more than we can the Lefebvre line. Some Lefebvre clergy have either gone rogue, returned to Anglicanism, run off with women, manifested they are homos, joined the Novus Church, (sometimes doing more than one of those) etc. etc.

    We need to look at each case on its own.

    Offline OHCA

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    CATHOLICS AND LUTHERANS: CLOSER WITNESS TO THE GOSPEL
    « Reply #14 on: December 18, 2010, 02:03:44 AM »
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  • http://www.americancatholic.org/messenger/nov1996/feature1.asp#F6

    The points for the canonization of John XXIII reported on in the article linked above seem to me to heavily dwell on his view of non-Catholics and how non-Catholics viewed him.  Fairly cosistent with theme of the title of this thread regarding kissing the @$$es of prot HERETICS!

    "Council fathers" advocating canonization are quoted as saying something to the effect of John XXIII demonstrating that the world and the Church are not alienated from each other.  That is most reassuring in light of what the world was evolving into (and recognizedly so) at the time of the statement and what the world has become today!!

    His fan club were the type who got "warm fuzzies" about such things as "a hard-bitten, non-Catholic journalist who, after seeing John XXIII in central Rome, enthused, 'I could just kiss the man.'" Who cares whether the journalist was a mason, klansman, prot, moslem, jew, hindu, buddhist, atheist, etc., so long as he was not Catholic and the pope had enamoured himself to this non-Catgolic who earlier Popes and lay Catholics would likely found deserving of  :heretic:

    Of all of the atrocities of the NO, this seeking "unity" and to homogenize with heretical prots particularly disturbs me.  The Church is the bride of Christ; to unify means to make one.  Thus the question, is this an effort to make a whore of the bride of Christ or to subject her to rape?

    I am severely dismayed by this emphasis on unity and "fitting in!" When you're the one with the map and the truth, why give in, appease, compromise, or otherwise wimp out in favor of erroneous directions or falsehoods?!?

    Truth is truth and, at least "truth" of the nature of what has been taught by the Church for centuries, deserves to STAND simply be explained and taught!  Truth should not be repackaged, restated, compromised, etc. for the appeasement of dissenters.

    Why should the Church parse words on its teachings regarding justification to appease HERETICS who are still going to disagree in substance?  My image of the Church is that of unwavering stength, a true ROCK, if you will.  Could wimping out, backing down, and appeasing be the product of too many who are "light on their feet," or otherwise effiminate, flooding the Church and ascending to power?

    The points contained in the article linked above made in favor of canonizing John XXIII would more aptly be made for a posthumous excommunication!  I had strained myself to chalk his calling the council at such an inopportune time up to stupidity.  I'm sadly coming to believe he was cognizant of, and thus culpable for, what he was doing.

     

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