Author Topic: Catholic World is Divided. (Read 3103 times)

LaramieHirsch · « **on:** May 27, 2012, 09:15:31 PM »

Meh, I'll just start over and begin a new thread.

So...

I hardly ever participate in discussions about SSPX and the like, but I feel compelled for some reason to now.

1. I generally attend the Novus Ordo Mass, one run by a priest who has folks kneel during the Eucharist and it is celebrated ad orientum.

2. When I can, I try to attend FSSP Mass on Fridays.

3. I do not attend SSPX Mass, because I am unsure if it is in communion with Rome.

4. I do not believe in becoming a sede because that would be leaving the Church that Christ began.

Now, everyone is arguing for the primacy of their type of worship here in the Catholic world. N.O., FSSP folk, SSPX, sedes...and this is what you call division. Everything is so damned divided.

When I converted to the Faith a little over ten years ago, I left the Protestant world. I used to be a Baptist. When I left that nebula of confusion, I left being disgusted with the divided community, the theological confusion, the self righteousness of some, and the cliquishness of others.

Here, in Catholic Land, I have found all of it again. Yet, I cannot abandon the Faith, because it IS the Faith. So, it's not like Protestantism, where I can just leave and do my own thing (which was not wholesome; being a loner Christian is unadvisable).

But to top it all off, not only is there this division in the Catholic world I find myself in, but Catholics generally (all kinds) are difficult to get along with here in the middle of America. It has taken a lot of effort on my part to reach out to people who'd prefer to stay in their own comfort zones--and what I've established with the few I've encountered has been difficult.

My point?

Something is wrong, here. Obviously, VII is a screw up. But at this point, I refuse to believe that the Pope is not the vicar of Christ. If he is not, then the whole priesthood is compromised, and there's no way to tell who is a "real" priest, and who is not. Something is wrong. There may be bad priests and bishops, and they may go to Hell, but even in Hell, these men are still priests, and they are still given their authority from God.

The interior struggles in the Church like this make me want to quit--and they have certainly made it easy for me to miss Mass. Because, if the Mass I am attending is possibly invalid, then why go? But maybe it's valid? Lol. Authority is destroyed on Earth, 2012.

Telesphorus · « **Reply #1 on:** May 27, 2012, 09:28:34 PM »

There are 1900 years of Traditional teachings to fall back on when seeking understanding of the Catholic Faith.

Stick to that, and forget about the Vatican II religion.

LaramieHirsch · « **Reply #2 on:** May 27, 2012, 09:47:24 PM »

Lol! A thumbs down? For this?

I state how muddled I feel about things right now, and I get a thumbs down? I wasn't even trying to make a point. Only describe my perception of how I see things. Further insight is the usual reason I post on forums of any kind.

Thumbs down. Lol. "How dare that guy not know exactly how it is!"

Marcelino · « **Reply #3 on:** May 27, 2012, 09:53:48 PM »

Quote from: LaramieHirsch

Lol! A thumbs down? For this?

I state how muddled I feel about things right now, and I get a thumbs down? I wasn't even trying to make a point. Only describe my perception of how I see things. Further insight is the usual reason I post on forums of any kind.

Thumbs down. Lol. "How dare that guy not know exactly how it is!"

I know what you mean, by your opening post. The whole church is split right down the middle between conservative and liberal, then beyond that there's the trads and I suppose there must be some left wing group that's disgruntled. I guess the west has lost its sense of purpose.

MaterDominici · « **Reply #4 on:** May 27, 2012, 10:08:32 PM »

You've been a Catholic for over 10 years and are still this confused; do you expect much more from everyone else? We all do the best we can with what we have.

LaramieHirsch · « **Reply #5 on:** May 27, 2012, 10:19:54 PM »

Quote from: MaterDominici

You've been a Catholic for over 10 years and are still this confused; do you expect much more from everyone else? We all do the best we can with what we have.

Yes.

I understood, in the beginning, that I ought to be an "old-fashioned Catholic." I only knew a little about the Vatican II situation. Three or four years into it, I began learning a little about the different groupings and "splits."

Years 5-7, my father slowly died and traumatized life. I wasn't really hyperactive in seeking the answers to the Universe.

Years 8-10, been picking up where I left off at the beginning of the millenium. For example, I am only just now learning about how the Judaic movement runs counter to the Church and seeks Her destruction. Probably up until 5 years ago, I was a Zionist who thought the state of Israel was a great thing that ought to be defended by America.

So, yes.

Pick up more from everyone else? Well, I was kind of hoping there was some older fellows on this forum who have enough life experience that they might be able to relate and have helpful advice. Though, perhaps there are also some middle-aged fellas and younger who caught on how to approach it all. I dunno.

Is it offensive to you to even state what I have in this thread?

MaterDominici · « **Reply #6 on:** May 27, 2012, 10:36:34 PM »

Quote from: LaramieHirsch

Is it offensive to you to even state what I have in this thread?

No. You just seem yourself to have some confusion and some unique situations of your own, but then are confused as to why everyone doesn't end up exactly where you are. Did that make sense?

There are some who think they're 100% certain that what they do is right not just for them, but for everyone and that no one should have any difficulty doing exactly as they do. For them, I can understand a bit of frustration at all the division especially among Trads.

But, you yourself admit to some confusion and uncertainty, but then also don't understand why everyone ends up divided. You should be sympathetic to why Catholics -- Trads particularly -- end up so divided when there is so much confusion out there and so many points of potential disagreement.

Nadir · « **Reply #7 on:** May 27, 2012, 11:09:25 PM »

Quote from: LaramieHirsch

When I converted to the Faith a little over ten years ago, I left the Protestant world. ...Here, in Catholic Land, I have found all of it again.

Conversion to the Catholic Church today is fraught with problems. As you say yourself, you left Protestantism to find more of the same.

I was born into the Catholic Church when the terms Traditional Catholic Church and Traditonalism, Latin Mass, etcetera, had not even been coined. Not that tradition and Latin Masses did not exist – there was just the Catholic Church and there was the Mass. We knew what She is and stood for.

Quote from: LaramieHirsch

Something is wrong, here. Obviously, VII is a screw up.

Yes VII is the screw up. It took me from 1965 to 2005, that’s 40 years, to work out what is going on. For you it has only been 10 years (long enough to make you feel a little uncomfortable in it). And I had the added benefit of wise parents who saw it from the start, but we thought they were just overly religious fanatics. But they were not. They were merely simple faithful Catholics.

Quote from: LaramieHirsch

But at this point, I refuse to believe that the Pope is not the vicar of Christ.

You are right to refuse to believe that the Pope is not the vicar of Christ. To do so would indeed be heresy. But it is not heresy to question if a certain person who is generally accepted as pope by the majority of Catholics is indeed the Pope. You have to ask yourself if what that person believes and teaches is consistent with what the popes have taught from the beginning.

Quote from: LaramieHirsch

4. I do not believe in becoming a sede because that would be leaving the Church that Christ began.

Hang in there and have hope, Laramie. You will learn the Truth and the Truth will set you free. But it will take courage. Be prepared.

Nadir · « **Reply #8 on:** May 27, 2012, 11:23:53 PM »

I wanted to made a change but the cement had already dried. The last quote should have been

The interior struggles in the Church like this make me want to quit

Exilenomore · « **Reply #9 on:** May 28, 2012, 04:37:54 AM »

Laramie,

Your opening post certainly manifests a degree of misunderstanding regarding several matters. It is my opinion, however, that internet forums are not the means by which one should attempt to dissolve personal confusion; they have the potential to aggravate it because practically everyone can have his say on them with the push of a button. They are also not always a faithful representation of reality outside the internet.

What I would advise you to do is to step back from forums and let old books, detached from the world's present controversies, aid you in your formation. The whole world has gone insane, and both common sense, and the true faith have been reduced to vestiges. The present state of the world bears the marks of the spirit of anti-christ like never before, and therefore souls benefit from often withdrawing into the cell of good Catholic formation, detached from actual polemics, so that they may be strong enough to withstand the storms outside. Also, such studies should be prayerful, and not purely driven by curiosity. Their objective should be to ascend the holy mount of God, not to appear wise to your fellow men.

I have to think of the passage from the Apocalypse of St. John, where the woman flees from the devil into the desert to be nourished by God. (Apoc. 12, 14)

lefebvre_fan · « **Reply #10 on:** May 28, 2012, 06:54:25 AM »

Quote from: LaramieHirsch

Lol! A thumbs down? For this?

I state how muddled I feel about things right now, and I get a thumbs down? I wasn't even trying to make a point. Only describe my perception of how I see things. Further insight is the usual reason I post on forums of any kind.

Thumbs down. Lol. "How dare that guy not know exactly how it is!"

Well, let's see what you wrote in your original post...

Quote

4. I do not believe in becoming a sede because that would be leaving the Church that Christ began.

If you haven't already noticed, there's a lot of sedes on this forum. And you wonder why you got a thumbs down, lol.

ora pro me · « **Reply #11 on:** May 28, 2012, 01:15:46 PM »

Laramie,

Let's start with this:

What books have you read and what books do you currently continue to use as resources?

Neil Obstat · « **Reply #12 on:** May 28, 2012, 05:37:19 PM »

Quote from: lefebvre_fan

Quote from: LaramieHirsch
Lol! A thumbs down? For this?

I state how muddled I feel about things right now, and I get a thumbs down? I wasn't even trying to make a point. Only describe my perception of how I see things. Further insight is the usual reason I post on forums of any kind.

Thumbs down. Lol. "How dare that guy not know exactly how it is!"

Well, let's see what you wrote in your original post...

Quote
4. I do not believe in becoming a sede because that would be leaving the Church that Christ began.

If you haven't already noticed, there's a lot of sedes on this forum. And you wonder why you got a thumbs down, lol.

That's a very insightful reply, L_F.

Laramie, I would suggest two things, to start for you:

Read the New Testatment, Douay-Rheims version.
Pray the Rosary of the Blessed Virgin every day, if you can, two or three of them. That means 5 decades for each Rosary.

These two things work together, for they cover the same subject, the life of Our Lord and the mysteries that surround it. When you pray the Apostles' Creed you have all the articles of the Faith that it contains. It is believed that each of the 12 articles were submitted by one of the 12 Apostles, and that's how it came to be known as the Apostles' Creed. You begin each Rosary with the Creed, or, if you're saying two or three Rosaries in immediate succession, you only need one Creed at the beginning.

I would also recommend that you consider, sometime in the next few months, to arrange to attend a retreat at the SSPX retreat center nearest you. They have a website you can find one. You might be a long way away, but they are very accommodating for travelers, and they will even pick you up at the airport and drop you off when it's time to leave. I went to the one in Los Gatos, CA, last December. Most of them are 5 days in duration, and the recommended donation is about $50 a day. You would have a hard time finding a motel that cheap. BTW: if you can't afford it, call them anyway, because when they say "recommended donation," they mean what they say.

Look at it this way: Our Lord has led you this far, so he isn't going to abandon you now. Be strong, and persevere, for he who perseveres to the end shall be saved (Mt xxiv. 13).

Capt McQuigg · « **Reply #13 on:** May 28, 2012, 06:00:38 PM »

Hi Laramie,

There's a lot I wanted to respond to you in your thread here but I think it would be more appropriate if you just got back to basics.

I'm not "educating you" or "setting you straight" so please don't take this in any confrontational manner.

What I would recommend is that you read (or reread) the Baltimore Catechism #3 and it's sidekick Baltimore Catechism #4. Also, pick out a devotion or religious instruction book. I recommend St. Francis de Sales' "The Introduction to the Devout Life" (ITDL) by Tan Publishers. Set aside time for prayer (ideally the Rosary) and read a couple chapters of the Catechism and a one or two chapters at a time of the ITDL. If you want to substitute the ITDL, you can choose to focus more on praying the rosary and have the St. Louis de Montfort book "The Secrets of the Rosary" or one of his other Marian devotional books.

A book that really aided me in my introduction to Traditional Catholicism is St. Alphonse Alighouri's "Explanation of the Salve Regina" also published by Tan Publishing Co. and worth rereading if you're already done so.

I would stay away from Paulist press (maybe it's pauline press - I stay away from them entirely) because when I was shopping online for the St Francis de Sales book, the Paulist press website was selling it for a good price and the cover art was attractive (both are bonuses) but in the description of the book the editor mentioned that the book was "updated for the modern reader"... Whoa! What's that supposed to mean? They changed his words to suit their own purposes? I said to myself "I'm out of here" and never went back nor would go back.

More on a different topic in your post. In the Hail Holy Queen prayer there is a line where we beseech the Blessed Virgin ti show us Jesus after our period of exile is over. That's what this life really is. It's an exile so it's perfectly understandable that there would be disagreements and even what you call "splits".

lefebvre_fan · « **Reply #14 on:** May 28, 2012, 06:22:16 PM »

Quote from: Neil Obstat

That's a very insightful reply, L_F.

Thank you, I try my best! :wink: