Author Topic: Catholic martyr and others... (Read 3493 times)

spouse of Jesus · « **on:** September 07, 2009, 12:02:48 PM »

This is my serious object to feeneyitism.
if a secret (still unbaptized) convert is told to either die or insult The Holy Trinity, what should he do?
Should he utter a blasphemy so that he may live and get baptized one day, or he must resist this suggestion and end in hell.(since you believe that he can't be saved with BOD)
??????

CM · « **Reply #1 on:** September 08, 2009, 02:01:49 AM »

A serious convert will stand fast, expecting death and God will MIGHTILY SMITE THE OPPRESSOR.

My 2 cents.

CM · « **Reply #2 on:** September 08, 2009, 02:04:12 AM »

This is the problem with the baptism of desire opinion. It presupposes a lack of trust in God.

God will never let any of His elect slip through His fingers, and nobody who truly desires to be united to Him, by their sheer good will (which is a gift of God in the first place), is ever going to be placed in a situation where they must choose between hell and hell. God doesn't work that way.

CM · « **Reply #3 on:** September 08, 2009, 02:07:41 AM »

Why would God draw a soul to Him by His grace, only to let that soul be destroyed by some outside force, as though God is powerless?

The only power that can keep you out of the way of salvation is your own will, since that is the only power that God will allow to influence His desire in regard to your eternal destiny.

He will not save you against your will, but He certainly will not let you be lost, if you fervently and truly will your salvation.

God will save you against a Muslim executioner's will in a heart beat.

spouse of Jesus · « **Reply #4 on:** September 08, 2009, 03:11:40 AM »

Yeah! catholic Martyr it is the point I wanted us to reach. actualy I asked that question in order to make you say this:

Quote

Why would God draw a soul to Him by His grace, only to let that soul be destroyed by some outside force, as though God is powerless?

It is the greatest obstacle to my becoming a true catholic. I am constanly tempted to atheism. just because of it.

Quote

Why would God draw a soul to Him by His grace, only to let that soul be destroyed by some outside force, as though God is powerless?

Here is the catholic (!) answer to this question:

Because God loves and respects the free will of human beings. He doesn't prevent them from doing evil when they will it.

Quote

his is the problem with the baptism of desire opinion. It presupposes a lack of trust in God.

You speak about trust. And the word trust usualy comes with them idea of Fatherhood of God. we remember our childhood when we rest in the arms of our fathers assured of their care and love. But wait! God respects the free will of any pagan, murderer or heretic.
Just imagine a father who says to theives and evil doers:" do you want to damage my child? if you want I cannot prevent you. do as you will" Or "do you want to rape, kill or eat my child? I respect your free will do as you will"
It is why I have zero trust in God. It is Him who feed me. But if my father freely choses to strave me. God will respect my father's choice and let me die.
Catholic Martyr, I don't know if you have a wife or not. But No man allowes her wife to be raped in his presence. although there is no guilt in such a woman, and she can still be called chaste. Yet her husband is supposed not to allow anybody to touch her.
Many nuns were raped before the eyes of God who was their spouse.... God did nothing.... :cry:

CM · « **Reply #5 on:** September 08, 2009, 03:42:59 AM »

Do you not know that God is the First and the LAST, the sovereign Creator and THE GREAT AND TERRIBLE JUDGE and merciful REWARDER OF THE JUST???

Those nuns who maintained their faith and steadfast love of God will have a much more perfect reward and a greater degree of glory in heaven. The ones who did evil to them will be drowned into the lower depths of hell for their sacrilege, unless they receive God's mercy and convert and do penance.

Quote from: Spouse

Just imagine a father who says to theives and evil doers:" do you want to damage my child? if you want I cannot prevent you. do as you will" Or "do you want to rape, kill or eat my child? I respect your free will do as you will"
It is why I have zero trust in God. It is Him who feed me. But if my father freely choses to strave me. God will respect my father's choice and let me die.

No father but God the Father Almighty knows how care perfectly for His children. And if God the Father chooses to use the rod, you are a sinner and you deserve it (we all are). Far be it from us to contradict the words of Wisdom:

Quote from: Proverbs 22:15

Folly is bound up in the heart of a child, and the rod of correction shall drive it away.

Quote from: 2 Proverbs 23:13

Withhold not correction from a child: for if thou strike him with the rod, he shall not die.

Young lady, you really need to read about Job. Not only did God multiply his wounds without cause, Job was faithful throughout and never once grumbled against God, his Maker, Who owed him NOTHING.

Yes God allows evil, but in the end, Job was replenished with far more than he had to begin with, on account of his trust in God's providence.

He is an example of how we are to live, with COMPLETE resignation to the will of God almighty, with the serenity to accept the things we cannot change, the courage to change the things we can, and the wisdom to know the difference.

Atheism is a coward's way out.

True doctrine, that is, full belief in His words, assenting to them as commanded by the Church in Her highest teaching authority, the Extraordinary Magisterium, and water baptism are the ONLY way to God.

CM · « **Reply #6 on:** September 08, 2009, 03:47:21 AM »

Quote from: spouse of Jesus

But wait! God respects the free will of any pagan, murderer or heretic...

It is why I have zero trust in God. It is Him who feed me. But if my father freely choses to strave me. God will respect my father's choice and let me die.

Quote from: Jesus Christ

And fear ye not them that kill the body, and are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him that can destroy both soul and body in hell.

You are only here for a little while. Don't worry so much about hardships in this life.

Get the faith, and plan for the world to come.

spouse of Jesus · « **Reply #7 on:** September 08, 2009, 08:05:35 AM »

Yes. I know. God respects the free will of human beings. And will reward and punish them accordingly.
But.... when you say that God will prevent a persecuter of catholics from killing a sincere (still unbaptized) convert, your statement is contradictory to God's ways who allows human beings to do the evil they want to do.

BTW: allowing your child to be punished is healthy. Allowing your wife to be raped is very :shocked:

Elizabeth · « **Reply #8 on:** September 08, 2009, 08:17:46 AM »

Quote from: Catholic Martyr

This is the problem with the baptism of desire opinion. It presupposes a lack of trust in God.

God will never let any of His elect slip through His fingers, and nobody who truly desires to be united to Him, by their sheer good will (which is a gift of God in the first place), is ever going to be placed in a situation where they must choose between hell and hell. God doesn't work that way.

pathetic :cry:

spouse of Jesus · « **Reply #9 on:** September 08, 2009, 08:24:44 AM »

Quote from: Elizabeth

Quote from: Catholic Martyr
This is the problem with the baptism of desire opinion. It presupposes a lack of trust in God.

God will never let any of His elect slip through His fingers, and nobody who truly desires to be united to Him, by their sheer good will (which is a gift of God in the first place), is ever going to be placed in a situation where they must choose between hell and hell. God doesn't work that way.

pathetic :cry:

?

Belloc · « **Reply #10 on:** September 08, 2009, 09:26:06 AM »

Quote from: spouse of Jesus

Yes. I know. God respects the free will of human beings. And will reward and punish them accordingly.
But.... when you say that God will prevent a persecuter of catholics from killing a sincere (still unbaptized) convert, your statement is contradictory to God's ways who allows human beings to do the evil they want to do.

BTW: allowing your child to be punished is healthy. Allowing your wife to be raped is very :shocked:

The guard that replaced the apostasizing man on the frozen lake-one of hte 40 martyrs---there is NO record of him being batized, yet he is recognized a mrtyr for the Faith.....desire and/or blood was involved, no water baptism.....the others likely freezing too much to pour/dunk water on him.......

Belloc · « **Reply #11 on:** September 08, 2009, 09:29:28 AM »

Quote from: Catholic Martyr

A serious convert will stand fast, expecting death and God will MIGHTILY SMITE THE OPPRESSOR.

My 2 cents.

God at time will smite, but most times,does not......hmm.....might need to add a quarter next time......your post reminds me of those times I used to wasted debating Calvinists.......you sound a lot like them at times.....God did not smite teh oppresors of the 40 on the lake, so where di the #40 go, the guard that replaced the apostate???No baptism of water for him.No salt,no exorcism as part of baptism,..where did he go then........?

Belloc · « **Reply #12 on:** September 08, 2009, 09:31:14 AM »

Quote from: spouse of Jesus

This is my serious object to feeneyitism.
if a secret (still unbaptized) convert is told to either die or insult The Holy Trinity, what should he do?
Should he utter a blasphemy so that he may live and get baptized one day, or he must resist this suggestion and end in hell.(since you believe that he can't be saved with BOD)
??????

Feeney started out meaning well, then went off the deep end into his own private judgment (see Peter's letter).......also, there is a scripture pasage reading something like "lean not to your own understanding"..that is the problem.CM likely decent fellow, but he has become his own judge,Pope and authority.soo too Feeney......right to oppose Modernism, but one can go to extremes without a balance.......

radtrad · « **Reply #13 on:** September 08, 2009, 03:45:21 PM »

Quote from: Belloc

Quote from: spouse of Jesus
Yes. I know. God respects the free will of human beings. And will reward and punish them accordingly.
But.... when you say that God will prevent a persecuter of catholics from killing a sincere (still unbaptized) convert, your statement is contradictory to God's ways who allows human beings to do the evil they want to do.

BTW: allowing your child to be punished is healthy. Allowing your wife to be raped is very :shocked:

The guard that replaced the apostasizing man on the frozen lake-one of hte 40 martyrs---there is NO record of him being batized, yet he is recognized a mrtyr for the Faith.....desire and/or blood was involved, no water baptism.....the others likely freezing too much to pour/dunk water on him.......

But this doesn't mean that he wasn't, only that we don't have a record of it occurring. There is a difference.

radtrad · « **Reply #14 on:** September 08, 2009, 03:54:43 PM »

Quote from: spouse of Jesus

Quote
Why would God draw a soul to Him by His grace, only to let that soul be destroyed by some outside force, as though God is powerless?

It is the greatest obstacle to my becoming a true catholic. I am constanly tempted to atheism. just because of it.

So what is your obstacle? What is "it" that you refer to?

Quote from: spouse of Jesus

But wait! God respects the free will of any pagan, murderer or heretic.

How do you know this? Just because God allows things to happen does not mean that he respects the will behind those actions.

Quote from: spouse of Jesus

Just imagine a father who says to theives and evil doers:" do you want to damage my child? if you want I cannot prevent you. do as you will" Or "do you want to rape, kill or eat my child? I respect your free will do as you will"
It is why I have zero trust in God. It is Him who feed me. But if my father freely choses to strave me. God will respect my father's choice and let me die.
Catholic Martyr, I don't know if you have a wife or not. But No man allowes her wife to be raped in his presence. although there is no guilt in such a woman, and she can still be called chaste. Yet her husband is supposed not to allow anybody to touch her.
Many nuns were raped before the eyes of God who was their spouse.... God did nothing.... :cry:

You expect things of God that have not been taught or promised about Him. God never said that He would prevent physical harm to the body of any of His believers. Look what happened to His only Son!

Quote

It is why I have zero trust in God.

I am sorry this is how you relate to God. The lack of trust in God is due to what? You or to Him? Something you have done, or something He has failed to do? I am sincerely curious. You are "tempted" by atheism, but you are obviously not an atheist.