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Offline Pravoslavni

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Catholic bishops legitimize voting for murder!
« on: August 06, 2008, 03:13:40 PM »
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  • http://www.nj.com/printer/printer.ssf?/base/news-4/1217390961251120.xml=&coll=5


    U.S. bishops: Vote your conscience
    Catholics urged to weigh stands on all issues
    Wednesday, July 30, 2008

    BY JEFF TRENTLY
    LAWRENCE --

    If you think you know how the Catholic Church in the United States wants its members to vote in the presidential election this year, think again.

    Single-issue voting, like simply choosing the anti-abortion candidate, is out.

    Weighing each candidate's view on the entire spectrum of social issues -- including the war in Iraq, health care, housing, the plight of immigrants, as well as abortion -- is in.

    "This is the most prickly point," said the Rev. Ronald J. Cioffi, director of the Office of Social Concerns for the Diocese of Trenton. "You may vote for a person who is pro-choice if you feel you have a moral reason to support the candidate for his stand on other issues."

    This is a change from four years ago, said Cioffi, who noted some Catholics believed former Democratic presidential candidate John Kerry shouldn't take Communion because of his abortion rights stand.

    Cioffi presented an outline of the U.S. Catholic Bishops' document "Forming Consciences for Faithful Citizenship" at a meeting of about 30 staff members at the diocese's Pastoral Center yesterday.

    "It's hard to find a candidate who supports all of the church's teaching," Bishop John M. Smith admitted to his staff at the meeting.

    "It's a difficult time to decide how we're voting, especially this year," Smith said.

    And while the Catholic Church has not changed it stand on abortion -- it's still called "an intrinsic evil," as is racism -- the bishops clearly state a Catholic may vote for an abortion rights supporter, such as Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama, if that candidate's views on other moral issues outweigh his abortion stand in the voter's conscience.

    "There may be times when a Catholic who rejects a candidate's unacceptable position may decide to vote for that candidate for other morally grave issues," the document states.

    For the more than 800,000 Catholics in the Trenton Diocese, including close to 32,000 in Mercer County, the new guidelines are a call to weigh their consciences, as well as the common good, Cioffi said.

    "For those who want to be told what to do -- this document does not tell them," said Rayanne Bennett, chief communications officer for the diocese.

    "The reason this is important is no candidate this year and few candidates historically have perfectly lined up with Catholic social teaching," she said.

    For instance, conservatives who oppose abortion often support the death penalty, Bennett said. The Catholic Church opposes both.

    Catholics who vote for Republican presidential candidate John McCain because of his anti-abortion record also are voting for a candidate who supports the war in Iraq -- a war Pope Benedict XVI clearly has opposed.

    "If you vote for someone who supports the war, be actively involved in trying to change his mind," Bennett said of the bishops' stand.

    The idea, Cioffi said, is to allow Catholics to vote their consciences.

    "We're not interested in creating the United Catholic States of America," he said. "We're not into endorsing party candidates or parties. We want to focus on issues."

    And, Cioffi said, a single issue, like abortion or war, should not be the sole reason to vote for or against a candidate.

    "As Catholics, we are not single-issue voters," he said.

    Still, the bishops' document does come out strongly against abortion.

    "A Catholic cannot vote for a candidate who takes a position in favor of an intrinsic evil, such as abortion or racism, if the voter's intent is to support that position," the document states.

    In such cases a Catholic would be guilty of "formal cooperation in grave evil," the bishops said.

    At the same time, a voter should not use a candidate's opposition to abortion to justify indifference or inattentiveness to other important moral issues involving human life and dignity, the document states.

    It's a message that goes beyond Election Day, said Mary Ellen Blackwell, director of the diocese's Office of Parish Social Ministry, because the church's teachings do not fit comfortably into the platform of either party.

    "The goal is never Democrat or Republican," she said. "It's looking for the common good."

    Catholics should vote their conscience but also know their own faith, said Linda Richardson, director of Family Life/Respect Life for the diocese.

    "There's no perfect candidate," she said. "We don't want to tell anybody who to vote for. You can be a Catholic who's a Democrat, a Catholic who's a Republican, but be a Catholic first."


    Offline marasmius

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    Catholic bishops legitimize voting for murder!
    « Reply #1 on: August 06, 2008, 05:03:48 PM »
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  • Caiphas used that common good, greater good argument nearly 2000 years ago.

    "If we let Him alone so, all will believe in Him; and the Romans will come, and take away our place and nation. But one of them, named Caiphas, being the high priest that year, said to them: You know nothing. Neither do you consider that it is expedient for you that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not." (Jn. 11:48-50)


    Offline Dawn

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    Catholic bishops legitimize voting for murder!
    « Reply #2 on: August 07, 2008, 07:48:17 AM »
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  • It is sad that many say the "Catholic" vote will be strong for the communist known as Barack Hussein Obama.

    It is sadder still that many think these men are real bishops.

    Offline TheD

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    Catholic bishops legitimize voting for murder!
    « Reply #3 on: August 07, 2008, 10:20:03 AM »
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  • It would seem as though many of our Bishops are in the state of heresy.  The Church has traditionaly supported the death penalty.  The execution of a serial killer is not the same thing as murdering millions of innocent babies every year.  The Lord will chastise this nation for its sins!

    Offline marasmius

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    Catholic bishops legitimize voting for murder!
    « Reply #4 on: August 07, 2008, 10:41:05 AM »
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  • Offline MichaelSolimanto

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    Catholic bishops legitimize voting for murder!
    « Reply #5 on: August 19, 2008, 07:11:23 PM »
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  • Quote from: Dawn
    It is sad that many say the "Catholic" vote will be strong for the communist known as Barack Hussein Obama.

    It is sadder still that many think these men are real bishops.


    Where is a bishop with jurisdiction Dawn? If not we have a bigger problem than voting for pro-murderers, we make Christ a liar.

    You know I want a sede to tell me where the jurisdiction Christ left on earth is right now. I just want one concrete example. The canard of supplied jurisdiction as an answer is not a state of existence, but only a mode of temporary existence, so I want one example of one bishop a sede believes has jurisdiction.

    I'll be happy with just one example if not we don't have a visible Church.
    God bless,
    Michael Solimanto

    Offline Cletus

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    Catholic bishops legitimize voting for murder!
    « Reply #6 on: August 19, 2008, 11:50:53 PM »
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  • "We make Christ a liar."

    The biggest canard at all.

    Yeah, and we make Christ a liar if we say that His Vicar could give us a Bad Mass. But Traditional Catholics say he could and has more than they say Dominus Vobiscum, don't they?

    You have to accept the soul-killing heretical skanks who run the Vatican II cult as the Representatives of Christ in order to keep HIM an honest man?

    That's twisted.

    Extreme cases make for bad law. The refusal to admit extreme cases makes for bad theology.


    Offline MichaelSolimanto

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    Catholic bishops legitimize voting for murder!
    « Reply #7 on: August 20, 2008, 12:02:45 AM »
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  • Quote from: Cletus
    "We make Christ a liar."


    Funny how you leave out the answer to my question and go off topic to make a point mostly emotional rather than rational. Just pretend it's my fault if you makes you feel better.
    God bless,
    Michael Solimanto


    Offline Cletus

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    Catholic bishops legitimize voting for murder!
    « Reply #8 on: August 20, 2008, 01:20:17 AM »
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  • I think that it is you, Mr Solimanto, who are given to keeping the emotional pitch on these threads as high as possible.

    "Make Christ a liar..."

    "If it makes you feel better..."

    I don't know of any ordinary jurisdiction instituted by Christ on this earth. I do know, and you know, of a putative Roman Pontiff rounding up all the cardinals and bishops he could and dragging them to Rome and then having them go forth into all the earth to poison it with Antichristian error.

    Where is a bishop with jurisdiction? Bad question. The good question is: where is the supposed bishop whose supposed jurisdiction does not work against God and Christ?

    I did not go "off topic." The topic was the supposed sacrilege involved in sedevacantism. (THEY make Christ a liar.) I countered what I consider a bad question ON THAT TOPIC with what I consider a good question ON THAT TOPIC.

    You want names. You want this. You want that. Yet you don't provide the name of a bishop with ordinary jurisdiction to whose jurisdiction you actually submit. Or whom you can point out as someone to whom you could submit were he your local ordinary.

    Offline MichaelSolimanto

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    Catholic bishops legitimize voting for murder!
    « Reply #9 on: August 20, 2008, 09:15:39 AM »
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  • Quote from: Cletus
    I think that it is you, Mr Solimanto, who are given to keeping the emotional pitch on these threads as high as possible.


    Keep pretending you believe that.

    Code: [Select]
    "Make Christ a liar..."

    "If it makes you feel better..."


    Saying someone is a liar if they say something they don't mean is not emotional, but rational. Mendacity has several parts to it, so I meant it in a very rational way. Next, saying "if it makes YOU" I was referring to you, not my emotions.

    You have avoided the topic I discussed for hackneyed cliches of the sede crowd.

    Quote
    I don't know of any ordinary jurisdiction instituted by Christ on this earth. I do know, and you know, of a putative Roman Pontiff rounding up all the cardinals and bishops he could and dragging them to Rome and then having them go forth into all the earth to poison it with Antichristian error.


    Well at least you admit there isn't any visible hierarchy in the world that one could point a lineage of both material and formal succession, but you see that's a heresy. That make you a teacher of Antichristian heresies.

    Quote
    Where is a bishop with jurisdiction? Bad question. The good question is: where is the supposed bishop whose supposed jurisdiction does not work against God and Christ?


    Actually that's a sophmoric question that is posed by non-critical thinkers. History is replete with bishops who did not do the work of God and still retained jurisdiction. Again, another weakness of sedevacantism is that it has no historical basis for it's claim, not to mention no shred of Catholic theology to believe that the visible hierarchy, the ecclesia docens, and a perpetual head to the chair of Peter could all be vacant.  

    Quote
    I did not go "off topic." The topic was the supposed sacrilege involved in sedevacantism. (THEY make Christ a liar.) I countered what I consider a bad question ON THAT TOPIC with what I consider a good question ON THAT TOPIC.


    So pick the liar part out, abstract it from the main contention, and then pretend you are on-topic?

    Quote
    Yet you don't provide the name of a bishop with ordinary jurisdiction to whose jurisdiction you actually submit.


    Obviously you are clueless. I submit to the Holy Father, Benedict XVI in all things lawful, same with my local bishop. I wouldn't be defending the office of Benedict if I didn't believe in his jurisdiction.

    Quote
    Or whom you can point out as someone to whom you could submit were he your local ordinary.


    You are making the term "submission" a form of slavery to every whim and desire of the ordinary. That is not true. Stop making a false conclusion, and then asking me to prove it true when it is a false conclusion to begin with.

    Submission relies on the law, and I'm not supposed to be in submission unless it's in all things lawful for Christ and the good of Holy Mother the Church. History is replete with saints who take very strong stands against bishops, and times against the Holy Father for the good of souls. You don't have a history to claim your position, and how you can live without a history to back your beliefs on is very scary in regards to eternal salvation.
    God bless,
    Michael Solimanto

    Offline MichaelSolimanto

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    Catholic bishops legitimize voting for murder!
    « Reply #10 on: August 20, 2008, 09:17:46 AM »
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  • Would a bishop who gives Holy Communion to a known person in mortal sin always be an anti-Christ?

    That's a question for anyone.
    God bless,
    Michael Solimanto


    Offline Cletus

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    Catholic bishops legitimize voting for murder!
    « Reply #11 on: August 20, 2008, 12:47:35 PM »
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  • History is rife with examples of not only Saints but masses of ordinary faithful who rejected as bishops former bishops who had fallen into heresy.

    Dawn put into doubt the genuineness of SOME bishops, who had proposed erroneous teaching. Someone had the foolish, and typically Trad knee-jerk reaction of arguing that doubting the episcopacy of THOSE bishops makes a liar out of Jesus Christ. Obviously, this was not thought out properly. It is telling that the person rushed in like the SSPX Furies, never stopping to reflect, "Well, it's true that Dawn did not say that ALL episcopal jurisdiction has ceased just because THESE error-spouting American bishops have ceased to be bishops."

    Real Catholic history presents one with the spectacle of heretical bishops by the scores and hundreds being automatically deprived of their miters in the minds of the orthodox. And of the faithfuls' subsequently being congratulated by Church authority for their pious abhorrence.

    Catholic history is not full of examples of times in which the orthodox said such things as, "Granted, His Excellency is corrupting the morals of Catholic children with that unfortunate Sex Ed course that Rome for some reason defends. But he is SO welcoming to the True Mass that I'm sure Our Lady will win for him te grace of conversion to Full Tradition..."

    (Above is a perfect example of SSPX-style "lunacy.")

    Going off to one's own little chapels with one's own little bishops and basically ignoring the existence of the bishops designated by the Roman Pontiff, yet coming on like Athanasius against the world in defense of the genuineness of the episcopacy of the putative pope's henchmen.... This is a Tradition that goes back to 1978 or thereabouts.

    Traditionalists invent their own little Catholic worlds. Then they try to re-invent the great big Catholic world of the ages.

    Of course, those of us who have dared to maintain contact with reality know that there is nothing in Catholic history vaguely resembling support for the SSPX position on anything. What happened with mainline Traditionalism is that one old man's agonizing spiritual hysteria was codified and dogmatized and ultimately idolized.

    The notion of a pope who is generally a false teacher (or an Antichrist, if you, like the Archbishop, will) is abhorrent to the genuine Catholic mind. The Traditionalism that sprang up in the 1970s is an abominable novelty.

    *

    I am only assuming that my adversary in this thread is aware of the fact that opinion among SSPX-school Traditionalists is sharply divided as to whether or not the new liturgical rites of the Roman Pontiff produce certainly valid bishops and priests . (He mocks sedevacantists for being divided on points as though all were one great Amen in unison among Pope-recognizing Traditionalists. He must know that such is not the case. I think the rest of us know it.)

    So in the minds of many SSPX members and adherents the only jurisdiction exercised by true bishops is over orderlies in nursing homes.

    Mainline Traditionalists ought to own up to this fact and stop making the "sedes" their only whipping boys.  

     

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