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Author Topic: Catholic Bishop Calls for Womens Ordination  (Read 4268 times)

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Offline Telesphorus

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Catholic Bishop Calls for Womens Ordination
« Reply #15 on: May 03, 2011, 05:58:03 PM »
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  • Quote from: stevusmagnus
    You are creating a false dichotomy. Recognizing a bishop and theoretically disobeying only sinful commands does not mean you have to deny he is a bishop.


    Sorry Stevus, but if all the bishops are giving sinful commands  in matters of faith and morals then are leading people away from God, not to God.  Where the bishop is, the Church is.  

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    It's the old analogy of not obeying an unlawful order in the military.


    And if all the commanders are doing it, and the person disobeying says they won't obey the commanders again because they're serving an illegitimate state?  

     
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    Doesn't mean the officer who gave the unlawful order loses his office when he does so.


    You analogy doesn't apply here, because a manifest heretic is not a member of the Church.

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    That is absurd and would lead to anarchy and private judgment as can be seen in the Sede community.


    You just keep repeating the same silly lines over and over again - refusing to accept a bishop or only obeying when one wants to obey  - they both depend on private judgement and both lead to anarchy - there's no difference.

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    You are submitting to your bishop de facto because you've not done anything in rebellion against anything he's told you to do. You don't agree with your bishop on everything but you don't need to in order to be obedient.


    I don't give any money.  Nor would I.  I haven't decided what to do yet, going to masses said by a pre-Vatican II ordained priest is a provisional decision.

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    My bishop can say one can't go to Society Masses all day long but he's overruled by the PCED.


    Where the bishop is the Church is Stevus.  PCED certainly doesn't tell people they should go.  If you disobey your bishop you aren't authorized in the disobedience by PCED.  

    And if PCED said to stop going it wouldn't make any difference to you.  

    Offline Raoul76

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    « Reply #16 on: May 03, 2011, 07:05:52 PM »
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  • Telesphorus said:
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    Stevus, if you tell people not to follow such a bishop, you are effectively deposing them.


    Don't fall into his semantic traps.  He knows, because he has heard it ad nauseam, that sedes don't depose anyone, we merely recognize that a heretic is not a member of the Church.  But because he has no intellectual honesty whatsoever, he continues to pretend like he hasn't heard this argument.  It's shameless and embarrassing.  

    Stevus, you will not win respect from people with your cheap and specious mode of argumentation, because you clearly don't respect them.  You think we're all nitwits who you can bring around to your point of view with all kinds of pettifogging and evasion, is that it?  

    Is this how you treat juries?  Maybe it works there, but not here.  You're going to need to do better than a demagogic "If the gloves don't fit, you must acquit" around these parts.  Everyone sees through what you're doing but you just keep bulling forward as if they don't.  It's like you're in your little world of one, never really engaging with anyone else, that is the reason for the tedious effect of your posts.    
    Readers: Please IGNORE all my postings here. I was a recent convert and fell into errors, even heresy for which hopefully my ignorance excuses. These include rejecting the "rhythm method," rejecting the idea of "implicit faith," and being brieflfy quasi-Jansenist. I also posted occasions of sins and links to occasions of sin, not understanding the concept much at the time, so do not follow my links.


    Offline stevusmagnus

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    « Reply #17 on: May 03, 2011, 08:31:55 PM »
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  • Tele,

    1.) All the bishops are not fiving sinful commands in matters of faith and morals. In fact they are commanding nothing these days.

    2.) Where the bishop is there the Church is? What do you mean by this?

    3.) Military analogy is simple. You have no authority to personally decide an officer who gave an unlawful order is not an officer because of it. You have the right to disobey the unlawful order. That is it. The officer is judged by the military courts or his commanding officer. Not you.

    4.) Manifest heretic is a member of the Church until the Church (not you) says he is not a member. In the meantime, if he holds an office over you, you refuse to obey sinful commands and petition the Church to remove him.

    5.) Refusing to obey sinful commands is judging the sinfulness of an act which is entirely different from judging whether the giver of the command loses his office. The former we do all the time and is a judgment we all must make (morality). It does not cause anarchy because it is not a judgment of persons or their office which is the job of the Church, not you or I.

    I accept the bishop as bishop all the time. Disobeying a bishop is not the same as not "accepting" him as bishop. I have authority to make moral decisions for the sake of my soul because I am directly responsible for my soul, not my bishop. Thus I have authority to make moral decisions regarding any orders my bishop gives me.

    6.) A bishop does not command or require you to give money, so you still would not be disobeying if you did not do so.

    7.) Bishop has never said I'm forbidden to go to SSPX. If he did, he would be in direct contradiction to the PCED. The PCED has jurisdiction over matters regarding the juridical status of the Society, not the local ordinaries. It would be like my bishop forbidding me to go to any other Mass Rome has said it would not be sinful to go to.

    8.) Even if the PCED said not to go, again it is a moral judgment regarding my soul. By choosing to disobey the PCED in a specific instance I'm not denying the PCED is a Pontifical Commission, nor do I deny their authority in principle. I would be choosing to disobey a specific command. That act of disobedience would be judged by moral principles. In certain cases disobedience can be justified, and so on.

    You (and sedes) confuse legitimate moral judgments with judging the offices and office holders in the Church which we have no authority to do. I'm not sure how else to state this. It is really self-evident.

    Offline stevusmagnus

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    « Reply #18 on: May 03, 2011, 08:46:50 PM »
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  • Raoul,

    It is you who hide behind semantics. No you do not "depose" anyone in the sense that you go to Rome and personally force the Pope out of his office. That is obvious and is a red herring. You do, however, effectively depose him as far as yourself and other sedes are concerned. The difference is a matter of semantics. You act as if he were already deposed.

    You keep depending upon a completely speculative theory of St. Bellarmine and turn it into some sort of superdogma. You then personally utilize it at your whim to claim whoever you so choose has lost their ecclesiastical office. You keep stating a "heretic is not a member of the church", but you refuse to recognize that judging people heretics is the business of the CHURCH not Raoul. You can't go around wily nily deciding clerics have lost their office because YOU personally think they uttered heresy and then say the heresy is manifest because it is manifest to YOU. This is madness and the result is chaos.

    What if Joe-Sede disagrees with you on Bishop X and says that what Bishop X said was not heresy. You disagree and say that it was manifest heresy. Then Joe-Sede continues to recognize Bishop X as legit and you continue not to recognize him as a Catholic bishop at all. Who will judge which one of you is correct? Nobody, because you have each effectively made yourselves your own pope, just as clearly as each Protestant has.

    Offline ServusSpiritusSancti

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    « Reply #19 on: May 03, 2011, 08:50:05 PM »
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  • Quote from: stevusmagnus
    Do you not submit to your bishop?


    This statement troubles me a bit. What do you mean by "submit to your bishop"? Are you implying that we should submit to our local bishop even if he spews heresy?

    And sedes don't claim themselves as Pope. That's a straw-man argument.
    Please ignore ALL of my posts. I was naive during my time posting on this forum and didn’t know any better. I retract and deeply regret any and all uncharitable or erroneous statements I ever made here.


    Offline stevusmagnus

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    « Reply #20 on: May 03, 2011, 09:01:31 PM »
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  • Spiritus,

    Tele is trying to say I'm being disobedient to my bishop. My point is that I'm not because my bishop doesn't command me to do squat. Therefore I am not disobedient. I pointed out that Tele himself "submits" to his bishop even moreso because he assists at a diocesan Mass.

    Submitting to your bishop in heretical matters is the Neo-Cath position. My position is to accept the bishop as bishop but disobey any sinful commands he may give me. He never gives me any commands so it is a moot point.

    I never said sedes claim themselves to be pope. That is indeed a straw-man. Those would be conclavist anti-popes.

    However, in effect, they are not only their own popes but super-popes as they decide for themselves who is and who is not a Catholic priest, bishop, pope. They have no authority whatsoever to do this. Only the Church can judge whether an officer of the Church has lost their office.

    Offline ServusSpiritusSancti

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    « Reply #21 on: May 03, 2011, 09:11:59 PM »
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  • Ok, gotcha. Sorry for the mis-understanding.

    As far as them making decisions they cannot make, I do think that judging the Pope as an anti-pope is a bit extreme (unless the Pope were to commit undeniable heresy or if he was not Catholic). Outside of that,  however, we are free to judge people's actions. If a bishop says that women can be priests, I'd label that as a heresy. My real thing is that if a person commits an undeniable heresy, wouldn't that exclude him from the Catholic Church?
    Please ignore ALL of my posts. I was naive during my time posting on this forum and didn’t know any better. I retract and deeply regret any and all uncharitable or erroneous statements I ever made here.

    Offline LordPhan

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    « Reply #22 on: May 03, 2011, 11:00:14 PM »
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  • Quote from: stevusmagnus
    Spiritus,

    Tele is trying to say I'm being disobedient to my bishop. My point is that I'm not because my bishop doesn't command me to do squat. Therefore I am not disobedient. I pointed out that Tele himself "submits" to his bishop even moreso because he assists at a diocesan Mass.

    Submitting to your bishop in heretical matters is the Neo-Cath position. My position is to accept the bishop as bishop but disobey any sinful commands he may give me. He never gives me any commands so it is a moot point.

    I never said sedes claim themselves to be pope. That is indeed a straw-man. Those would be conclavist anti-popes.

    However, in effect, they are not only their own popes but super-popes as they decide for themselves who is and who is not a Catholic priest, bishop, pope. They have no authority whatsoever to do this. Only the Church can judge whether an officer of the Church has lost their office.


    Tele is diocesan?


    Offline stevusmagnus

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    « Reply #23 on: May 03, 2011, 11:02:45 PM »
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  • Quote from: SpiritusSanctus
    Ok, gotcha. Sorry for the mis-understanding.

    As far as them making decisions they cannot make, I do think that judging the Pope as an anti-pope is a bit extreme (unless the Pope were to commit undeniable heresy or if he was not Catholic). Outside of that,  however, we are free to judge people's actions. If a bishop says that women can be priests, I'd label that as a heresy. My real thing is that if a person commits an undeniable heresy, wouldn't that exclude him from the Catholic Church?


    If a person simply speaks a heresy this doesn't exclude him from the Catholic Church.

    Offline LordPhan

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    « Reply #24 on: May 03, 2011, 11:10:56 PM »
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  • Quote from: SpiritusSanctus
    Ok, gotcha. Sorry for the mis-understanding.

    As far as them making decisions they cannot make, I do think that judging the Pope as an anti-pope is a bit extreme (unless the Pope were to commit undeniable heresy or if he was not Catholic). Outside of that,  however, we are free to judge people's actions. If a bishop says that women can be priests, I'd label that as a heresy. My real thing is that if a person commits an undeniable heresy, wouldn't that exclude him from the Catholic Church?


    I agree

    Offline LordPhan

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    « Reply #25 on: May 03, 2011, 11:12:48 PM »
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  • Quote from: stevusmagnus
    Quote from: SpiritusSanctus
    Ok, gotcha. Sorry for the mis-understanding.

    As far as them making decisions they cannot make, I do think that judging the Pope as an anti-pope is a bit extreme (unless the Pope were to commit undeniable heresy or if he was not Catholic). Outside of that,  however, we are free to judge people's actions. If a bishop says that women can be priests, I'd label that as a heresy. My real thing is that if a person commits an undeniable heresy, wouldn't that exclude him from the Catholic Church?


    If a person simply speaks a heresy this doesn't exclude him from the Catholic Church.


    If a person speaks a heresy you must rebuke him, if he recants he is not in heresy and never was, he was just in error. If he persists and argues it or declares himself a believer that something the catholic church believes is not so then he is a heretic.

    That's my understanding of it.


    Offline LordPhan

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    « Reply #26 on: May 03, 2011, 11:16:38 PM »
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  • Also a Clergy is judged at final judgement doubly for sins that he allows or encourages in his flock.

    I wish I remembered the quote my Priest gave me at the dinner party/get together on Sunday night, but it went something like "In most lines in hell there is a Priest at the back, because the ones in front are saying 'but Father said...'" He then went on to say, "you'll never be able to say that I told you it was ok to do X"

    Offline stevusmagnus

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    « Reply #27 on: May 03, 2011, 11:21:44 PM »
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  • He may apparently hold to a heresy, but whether or not this means he is no longer a Catholic is a different matter. That would be up for the competent ecclesiastical authority to decide. Very few of these NO Catholics even know enough about the true faith to knowingly hold to heresy. Many of them don't even know what the true Faith is and think that the Church is fine with you believing almost whatever you'd like. It is mass confusion spawned by a complete abdication of authority's obligation to condemn error and discipline those who spread it. That is their role and duty. If they don't do it, all we can do is point it out to them and try to correct the errant and error ourselves the best we can. But we can't go judging on our own authority whether certain clerics have lost their office.

    Offline Hobbledehoy

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    « Reply #28 on: May 03, 2011, 11:33:36 PM »
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  • From what I have always understood regarding this topic, an attempt to ordain a human being of the female sex to the Sacred Priesthood would be like attempting to confect the ineffable act of Transubstantiation using cheese. It would be a grave sacrilege, a horrible profanation, an unspeakable crime, and a ludicrous absurdity.

    Such a thing, according to my understanding, would be tantamount to positing that a perfect circle may indeed exceed 360 degrees, and that mathematicians should study the possibility of demonstrating that such a circle could exist.
    Please ignore all that I have written regarding sedevacantism.

    Offline LordPhan

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    « Reply #29 on: May 03, 2011, 11:36:03 PM »
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  • Quote from: Hobbledehoy
    From what I have always understood regarding this topic, an attempt to ordain a human being of the female sex to the Sacred Priesthood would be like attempting to confect the ineffable act of Transubstantiation using cheese. It would be a grave sacrilege, a horrible profanation, an unspeakable crime, and a ludicrous absurdity.

    Such a thing, according to my understanding, would be tantamount to positing that a perfect circle may indeed exceed 360 degrees, and that mathematicians should study the possibility of demonstrating that such a circle could exist.


    agreed