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Author Topic: catholic answer on sspx attendance and marriage witness deal  (Read 2081 times)

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Offline PG

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catholic answer on sspx attendance and marriage witness deal
« on: January 28, 2018, 04:23:04 PM »
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  • I have not really read the marriage sspx deal with rome details.  When you hear it from the sspx angle, it doesn't sound that bad.  But, if you listen from the NO angle, it does.  This guy from catholic answers minute 1:45 says that the ordinary witness is a priest from the NO diocese.  And, if one is not available, the NO bishop should grant the sspx priest faculties to be a witness.  That sounds like a bad deal if you ask me.  Like I said, I have not read the details, but that doesn't sound acceptable if that is the case.  But, with everything coming out of rome, there is probably language that says the contrary.  And, also, this catholicanswers guy talks about how you can fulfill your sunday obligation at an sspx mass if you only go there out of love for the latin mass, but not out of love for the dissent of vatican 2.  Basically, "yeah you can go to the sspx without sin if you are going to be a traditional modernist while there".  But, if you are doctrinal traditionalist, you cannot fulfill you sunday obligation at an sspx mass.  

    "A secure mind is like a continual feast" - Proverbs xv: 15


    Offline TKGS

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    Re: catholic answer on sspx attendance and marriage witness deal
    « Reply #1 on: January 28, 2018, 05:15:35 PM »
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  • He called St. Pius X "a reformer pope".   :o


    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: catholic answer on sspx attendance and marriage witness deal
    « Reply #2 on: January 28, 2018, 05:22:26 PM »
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  • Catholic Answers should be sued for their "FAIL" in Truth in Advertising.
    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

    Offline TKGS

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    Re: catholic answer on sspx attendance and marriage witness deal
    « Reply #3 on: January 28, 2018, 05:27:04 PM »
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  • Catholic Answers should be sued for their "FAIL" in Truth in Advertising.
    You mean because they say they're "Catholic" and have any "Answers"?

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: catholic answer on sspx attendance and marriage witness deal
    « Reply #4 on: January 28, 2018, 05:32:26 PM »
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  • You mean because they say they're "Catholic" and have any "Answers"?
    Both.  Because they advertise they have Catholic answers.  ;) 
    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)


    Offline Mega-fin

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    Re: catholic answer on sspx attendance and marriage witness deal
    « Reply #5 on: January 28, 2018, 05:52:53 PM »
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  • You mean because they say they're "Catholic" and have any "Answers"?
    “Conciliar Answers” would be more applicable. 
    For “apologists” they really don’t know the Catholic faith. But when you’re a conciliarist, you wouldn’t know Catholic if it smacked you over the head 
    Please disregard everything I have said; I have tended to speak before fact checking.

    Offline PG

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    Re: catholic answer on sspx attendance and marriage witness deal
    « Reply #6 on: January 28, 2018, 06:39:15 PM »
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  • What alarmed me about his was the use of the word "ordinary" witness when it comes to the NO priest.  I didn't recall that from reading into it before.  I thought that the NO priest was just going to be present while the sspx priest "witnessed" or said the prayer/conducted the ceremony and so on.  But, if the NO is the "ordinary", that seems to me it means in these new marriages, the NO priest is #1 in the ceremony, and the sspx priest is #2, if #2 has any meaning at all.  
    "A secure mind is like a continual feast" - Proverbs xv: 15

    Offline TKGS

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    Re: catholic answer on sspx attendance and marriage witness deal
    « Reply #7 on: January 28, 2018, 07:36:09 PM »
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  • What alarmed me about his was the use of the word "ordinary" witness when it comes to the NO priest.  I didn't recall that from reading into it before.  I thought that the NO priest was just going to be present while the sspx priest "witnessed" or said the prayer/conducted the ceremony and so on.  But, if the NO is the "ordinary", that seems to me it means in these new marriages, the NO priest is #1 in the ceremony, and the sspx priest is #2, if #2 has any meaning at all.  
    Actually, this is the understanding I had from what I've read about the docuмent.


    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: catholic answer on sspx attendance and marriage witness deal
    « Reply #8 on: January 28, 2018, 07:54:49 PM »
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  • What alarmed me about his was the use of the word "ordinary" witness when it comes to the NO priest.  I didn't recall that from reading into it before.  I thought that the NO priest was just going to be present while the sspx priest "witnessed" or said the prayer/conducted the ceremony and so on.  But, if the NO is the "ordinary", that seems to me it means in these new marriages, the NO priest is #1 in the ceremony, and the sspx priest is #2, if #2 has any meaning at all.  
    .
    Please keep in mind that Newchurch is really big on changing the meaning of words (following the lead of Pierre Teilhard de Chardin, who died outside the Church as a public heretic, and was therefore refused burial in a Catholic cemetery). 
    .
    We used to say the Ordinary of the Mass is the part that is generally the same throughout the year, while the propers are the parts that change from day to day in most cases. Along comes the Bugnini Revolution under Paul VI and suddenly there's no more Ordinary of the Mass but instead there is "Ordinary Time" which took the place of Sundays after Pentecost, among others.
    .
    One use of "Ordinary" that was retained is the Ordinary of a diocese, which refers to the local bishop.
    .
    Then they dreamed up "The Ordinary Rite" which they pinned on the Novus Ordo Newmass. And of course they pinned "Extraordinary Rite" on the previously exclusive Traditional Latin Mass. But it's all "the same" according to the hermeneutic of continuity.
    .
    Therefore, who knows what they're really talking about anymore when they say "ordinary?" 
    Is it whatever the Novus Ordo priest says it is, presuming he shows up?
    Is it whatever gets approved by the local bishop, "legitimately established (SC 22.2)?"
    Is it whatever Newrome wants it to be? 
    .
    .--. .-.-.- ... .-.-.- ..-. --- .-. - .... . -.- .. -. --. -.. --- -- --..-- - .... . .--. --- .-- . .-. .- -. -.. -....- -....- .--- ..- ... - -.- .. -.. -.. .. -. --. .-.-.

    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: catholic answer on sspx attendance and marriage witness deal
    « Reply #9 on: January 28, 2018, 07:58:45 PM »
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  • And, also, this catholicanswers guy talks about how you can fulfill your sunday obligation at an sspx mass if you only go there out of love for the latin mass, but not out of love for the dissent of vatican 2.  

    Basically, "yeah you can go to the sspx without sin if you are going to be a traditional modernist while there".  

    But, if you are doctrinal traditionalist, you cannot fulfill your sunday obligation at an sspx mass.  

    .
    Thank you for noticing this nuance.
    .
    Of course, if he's wrong, he'll be sternly corrected by the local bishop! Or perhaps Bishop Fellay!!
    .
    .--. .-.-.- ... .-.-.- ..-. --- .-. - .... . -.- .. -. --. -.. --- -- --..-- - .... . .--. --- .-- . .-. .- -. -.. -....- -....- .--- ..- ... - -.- .. -.. -.. .. -. --. .-.-.

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: catholic answer on sspx attendance and marriage witness deal
    « Reply #10 on: January 28, 2018, 09:57:02 PM »
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  • the ordinary witness is a priest from the NO diocese.  And, if one is not available, the NO bishop should grant the sspx priest faculties to be a witness.  
    This is what comes from the policy of the SSPX of not upsetting the Vatican II church hierarchy. Here you have a doubtfully consecrated bishop sending a doubtfully ordained priest,  possible two laymen, to witness a marriage by a valid priest. Everything is upside down
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24


    Offline MaterDominici

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    Re: catholic answer on sspx attendance and marriage witness deal
    « Reply #11 on: January 28, 2018, 11:53:44 PM »
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  • The pope's first recommended course of action was for the local bishop to appoint a diocesan priest to witness the marriage vows and then afterward the Mass would be celebrated by the SSPX priest. However, he also allowed that the local bishop could delegate the SSPX priest to be the marriage witness.

    When the SSPX announced these new permissions, they said that it wouldn't be difficult to convince a local bishop that the engaged couple would be more comfortable with the SSPX priest and therefore he should go with option "B". However, it's ultimately up to each bishop whether the vows will be witnessed by a NO or SSPX priest.
    "I think that Catholicism, that's as sane as people can get."  - Jordan Peterson

    Offline MaterDominici

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    Re: catholic answer on sspx attendance and marriage witness deal
    « Reply #12 on: January 29, 2018, 12:00:31 AM »
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  • Here's the exact quote from the letter granting these permissions:
    (Note, option "B" is to be used only when option "A" is not possible.)

    Quote
    Insofar as possible, the Local Ordinary is to grant the delegation to assist at the marriage to a priest of the Diocese (or in any event, to a fully regular priest), such that the priest may receive the consent of the parties during the marriage rite, followed, in keeping with the liturgy of the Vetus ordo, by the celebration of Mass, which may be celebrated by a priest of the Society.

    Where the above is not possible, or if there are no priests in the Diocese able to receive the consent of the parties, the Ordinary may grant the necessary faculties to the priest of the Society who is also to celebrate the Holy Mass, reminding him of the duty to forward the relevant docuмents to the Diocesan Curia as soon as possible.
    "I think that Catholicism, that's as sane as people can get."  - Jordan Peterson

    Offline poche

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    Re: catholic answer on sspx attendance and marriage witness deal
    « Reply #13 on: January 29, 2018, 04:32:14 AM »
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  • He called St. Pius X "a reformer pope".   :o
    He was

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: catholic answer on sspx attendance and marriage witness deal
    « Reply #14 on: January 29, 2018, 04:44:09 AM »
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  • This is what comes from the policy of the SSPX of not upsetting the Vatican II church hierarchy. Here you have a doubtfully consecrated bishop sending a doubtfully ordained priest,  possible two laymen, to witness a marriage by a valid priest. Everything is upside down
    Except according to the Council of Trent, SSPX marriages would be invalid otherwise (that is, if you accept the Novus Ordo hierarchy as legitimate):
    “Those who shall attempt to contract marriage otherwise than in the presence of the parish priest or of another priest authorized by the parish priest or by the ordinary and in the presence of two or three witnesses, the holy council renders absolutely incapable of thus contracting marriage and declares such contracts invalid and null, as by the present decree it invalidates and annuls them. ”

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)