Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

« previous next »
Pages: 1 [2] 3

Author Topic: catholic answer on sspx attendance and marriage witness deal  (Read 2091 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline PG

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1734
  • Reputation: +457/-476
  • Gender: Male
Re: catholic answer on sspx attendance and marriage witness deal
« Reply #15 on: January 29, 2018, 12:22:21 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: 2Vermont on January 29, 2018, 04:44:09 AM
    Except according to the Council of Trent, SSPX marriages would be invalid otherwise (that is, if you accept the Novus Ordo hierarchy as legitimate):
    “Those who shall attempt to contract marriage otherwise than in the presence of the parish priest or of another priest authorized by the parish priest or by the ordinary and in the presence of two or three witnesses, the holy council renders absolutely incapable of thus contracting marriage and declares such contracts invalid and null, as by the present decree it invalidates and annuls them. ”
    Thanks for the comment.  This is yet another problem with accepting the local novus ordo heretic bishops as legitimate.  You run into problems like this bit from Trent, which does need to be taken seriously.  If the sspx did not have bad fruit on the increase coinciding with this move towards Rome, I would agree within reason with them doing this.  But, when weighed in the balance, I don't like it.  The sspx is going to have to play=become rich church high church snob church usury church in order to cozy up with Rome, and that is a dangerous game that cannot be played by a catholic.  Rome cannot even tolerate the humble orders like the trad trappists they just shut down and the trad FFI they shut down even when they do follow the rules.  Take notice, there is a pattern here.  
    Logged
    "A secure mind is like a continual feast" - Proverbs xv: 15

    Offline Last Tradhican

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 6293
    • Reputation: +3327/-1937
    • Gender: Male
    Re: catholic answer on sspx attendance and marriage witness deal
    « Reply #16 on: January 29, 2018, 02:08:24 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: 2Vermont on January 29, 2018, 04:44:09 AM
    Except according to the Council of Trent, SSPX marriages would be invalid otherwise (that is, if you accept the Novus Ordo hierarchy as legitimate):
    “Those who shall attempt to contract marriage otherwise than in the presence of the parish priest or of another priest authorized by the parish priest or by the ordinary and in the presence of two or three witnesses, the holy council renders absolutely incapable of thus contracting marriage and declares such contracts invalid and null, as by the present decree it invalidates and annuls them. ”
    The SSPX wants to have the cake and eat it too.

    However, if they accept the NO hierarchy, then all the prior marriages they performed are invalid and they lead those souls to commit adultery. They would today have to perform all those marriages over again.

    Look at the fruits of the N.O. marriages versus SSPX and sedevacantes marriages, it is like comparing night and day. By their fruits you shall know them. 
    Logged
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline Carissima

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 782
    • Reputation: +569/-229
    • Gender: Female
    Re: catholic answer on sspx attendance and marriage witness deal
    « Reply #17 on: January 29, 2018, 02:28:53 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: 2Vermont on January 29, 2018, 04:44:09 AM
    Except according to the Council of Trent, SSPX marriages would be invalid otherwise (that is, if you accept the Novus Ordo hierarchy as legitimate):
    “Those who shall attempt to contract marriage otherwise than in the presence of the parish priest or of another priest authorized by the parish priest or by the ordinary and in the presence of two or three witnesses, the holy council renders absolutely incapable of thus contracting marriage and declares such contracts invalid and null, as by the present decree it invalidates and annuls them. ”
    It says ..’in the presence of the parish priest or’..
    that would mean any Priest as long as it was a valid one. What does that have to do with a specific Society?
    Logged

    Offline Last Tradhican

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 6293
    • Reputation: +3327/-1937
    • Gender: Male
    Re: catholic answer on sspx attendance and marriage witness deal
    « Reply #18 on: January 29, 2018, 04:51:42 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: Carissima on January 29, 2018, 02:28:53 PM
    It says ..’in the presence of the parish priest or’..
    that would mean any Priest as long as it was a valid one. What does that have to do with a specific Society?
    Do you know who the SSPX is? How do you know a priest is a valid priest?
    Logged
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline 2Vermont

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 10060
    • Reputation: +5256/-916
    • Gender: Female
    Re: catholic answer on sspx attendance and marriage witness deal
    « Reply #19 on: January 29, 2018, 05:22:35 PM »
  • Thanks!2
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: Carissima on January 29, 2018, 02:28:53 PM
    It says ..’in the presence of the parish priest or’..
    that would mean any Priest as long as it was a valid one. What does that have to do with a specific Society?
    No, a parish priest is a priest that is appointed by the local bishop.  SSPX priests are not parish priests.
    Logged
    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

    Offline 2Vermont

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 10060
    • Reputation: +5256/-916
    • Gender: Female
    Re: catholic answer on sspx attendance and marriage witness deal
    « Reply #20 on: January 29, 2018, 05:24:00 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: Last Tradhican on January 29, 2018, 02:08:24 PM
    The SSPX wants to have the cake and eat it too.

    However, if they accept the NO hierarchy, then all the prior marriages they performed are invalid and they lead those souls to commit adultery. They would today have to perform all those marriages over again.

    Look at the fruits of the N.O. marriages versus SSPX and sedevacantes marriages, it is like comparing night and day. By their fruits you shall know them.
    But there is no "if" here.  They do accept them as legitimate.
    Logged
    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

    Offline cindy gibson

    • Newbie
    • *
    • Posts: 22
    • Reputation: +16/-5
    • Gender: Female
    Re: catholic answer on sspx attendance and marriage witness deal
    « Reply #21 on: January 29, 2018, 06:11:11 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Really bad news when "Catholic Answers sounds" like they are on your side. Time to run the opposite direction as fast as you can. :jumping2:
    Logged

    Offline PG

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1734
    • Reputation: +457/-476
    • Gender: Male
    Re: catholic answer on sspx attendance and marriage witness deal
    « Reply #22 on: January 29, 2018, 07:24:39 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Other than theologians who speak of loss of office due to heresy, another thing that I think of is from scripture.  When Christ was betrayed and arrested by judas and the officers of the high priest at the mount of olives, all of the apostles fled and scattered.  I think john the apostle even ran off without his clothes to escape.  And, I think that may be an indication of what happens when the pope and bishops do not do their job(aka the popes hierarchy is not protected like peter is).  The bishops and popes have not not stayed awake to watch with Christ for even 1 hour.  Christ foretold of peters thrice betrayal, and it of course happened.  But, all of the apostles scattered.  So, where was the church at that time?  John the apostle tradition says was with our lady as seen by them together at the foot of the cross.  Where two or more are gathered together, there Christ is in their midst.  There is the church.  And, Christ promised Peter his faith would not fail.  So, despite his thrice denial, Christ was with Peter.  Two or more, and there is the church.  But, the church is one.  So, all of them were in a real sense, together as one church.  That is what I see of the balancing act or tight rope +Lefebvre tried to walk.  There is the church.  However, there is not enough in the scriptures during that time to suppose that a heretic or denier who does not follow Christ during a time of crucifixion for the church retain their legitimacy/place in the church.  It was not until after the crucifixion that more apostles went fishing with peter to suppose that the other apostles were legitimate at that time.  These are just my thoughts.  Because, I really think that if there can ever be a deal made between sspx and doubtism/vacantism, it hinges for one thing on whether novus ordo bishops are legitimate.  The sspx can never give up believing the pope is valid and legitimate, so vacantists will have to agree to that.  But, are the local bishops legitimate?  The whole sspx marriage issue revolves around this question.  And, I have my doubts.
    Logged
    "A secure mind is like a continual feast" - Proverbs xv: 15

    Offline TKGS

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 5768
    • Reputation: +4622/-480
    • Gender: Male
    Re: catholic answer on sspx attendance and marriage witness deal
    « Reply #23 on: January 29, 2018, 08:23:59 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: PG on January 29, 2018, 07:24:39 PM
    Other than theologians who speak of loss of office due to heresy, another thing that I think of is from scripture.  When Christ was betrayed and arrested by judas and the officers of the high priest at the mount of olives, all of the apostles fled and scattered.  I think john the apostle even ran off without his clothes to escape.  And, I think that may be an indication of what happens when the pope and bishops do not do their job(aka the popes hierarchy is not protected like peter is).  The bishops and popes have not not stayed awake to watch with Christ for even 1 hour.  Christ foretold of peters thrice betrayal, and it of course happened.  But, all of the apostles scattered.  So, where was the church at that time?  John the apostle tradition says was with our lady as seen by them together at the foot of the cross.  Where two or more are gathered together, there Christ is in their midst.  There is the church.  And, Christ promised Peter his faith would not fail.  So, despite his thrice denial, Christ was with Peter.  Two or more, and there is the church.  But, the church is one.  So, all of them were in a real sense, together as one church.  That is what I see of the balancing act or tight rope +Lefebvre tried to walk.  There is the church.  However, there is not enough in the scriptures during that time to suppose that a heretic or denier who does not follow Christ during a time of crucifixion for the church retain their legitimacy/place in the church.  It was not until after the crucifixion that more apostles went fishing with peter to suppose that the other apostles were legitimate at that time.  These are just my thoughts.  Because, I really think that if there can ever be a deal made between sspx and doubtism/vacantism, it hinges for one thing on whether novus ordo bishops are legitimate.  The sspx can never give up believing the pope is valid and legitimate, so vacantists will have to agree to that.  But, are the local bishops legitimate?  The whole sspx marriage issue revolves around this question.  And, I have my doubts.
    The Church didn't exist.  The Church's birthday is Pentecost Sunday, which occurred after the Ascension.
    By the way, the person who ran off without his clothes to escape is commonly thought to be Mark.  Even the Gospel says this wasn't an Apostle.
    Logged

    Offline PG

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1734
    • Reputation: +457/-476
    • Gender: Male
    Re: catholic answer on sspx attendance and marriage witness deal
    « Reply #24 on: January 29, 2018, 08:51:11 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • TKGS - I was under the impression it was john.  Either way it doesn't really matter to the point I think possible to draw from that situation.   And, that is that the apostles who fled outside of the Christ/Peter combo and John/Mary combo were not unified in a sense comparable to my previous combinations.  And, these are just thoughts of mine.  They do not represent a belief of mine.  It is sacred scripture.  And, that is read from the eyes of the church, and I am not a cleric.  So, I am not strictly speaking, interpreting.  Do you think you can provide a source that the apostle who ran off with no clothes was john?
    Logged
    "A secure mind is like a continual feast" - Proverbs xv: 15

    Offline Nadir

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 11675
    • Reputation: +6999/-498
    • Gender: Female
    Re: catholic answer on sspx attendance and marriage witness deal
    « Reply #25 on: January 29, 2018, 09:07:48 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Mark 14: [49] I was daily with you in the temple teaching, and you did not lay hands on me. But that the scriptures may be fulfilled. ... [50]Then his disciples leaving him, all fled away.... [51] And a certain young man followed him, having a linen cloth cast about his naked body; and they laid hold on him. ... [52] But he, casting off the linen cloth, fled from them naked. ...
    ,

    Yes there was no Church and no papacy at this time.
    .
    It would appear that the young man was not yet a disciple of Jesus. He is not one of those who who fled away but he followed Him, and it is also believed that Mark here is referring to himself..
    Logged
    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
    Let it be what God has planned, His new Eden where You reign.

    Offline PG

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1734
    • Reputation: +457/-476
    • Gender: Male
    Re: catholic answer on sspx attendance and marriage witness deal
    « Reply #26 on: January 29, 2018, 10:22:10 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: Nadir on January 29, 2018, 09:07:48 PM
    Mark 14: [49] I was daily with you in the temple teaching, and you did not lay hands on me. But that the scriptures may be fulfilled. ... [50]Then his disciples leaving him, all fled away.... [51] And a certain young man followed him, having a linen cloth cast about his naked body; and they laid hold on him. ... [52] But he, casting off the linen cloth, fled from them naked. ...
    ,

    Yes there was no Church and no papacy at this time.
    .
    It would appear that the young man was not yet a disciple of Jesus. He is not one of those who who fled away but he followed Him, and it is also believed that Mark here is referring to himself..
    Matthew 18:20 Where two or three are gathered in my name there I am in the midst of them.  True, the church was born at pentacost.  And, that is because the church has a pope and authority.  But, the church is spoken of as a she, like mary.  And, Mary was with john.  That is two together, which the third being peter whom christ does not forsake.  That makes three if you like numerology :).  I think there is something to it.  And, it may ultimately pad my suspicion that traditions problem lies in recognizing heretical NO bishops as legitimate/holding authority.  The heretical pope holds authority.  But heretical bishops he appoints do not.  Anyway, John and mary both were with Christ during his passion.  That is noteworthy when the scripture speaks of christs apostles deserting him with Mark referenced as willing to give up everything(represented by his last piece of clothing) not to have to suffer with Christ/not to "stay awake and watch for an hour".  That is the point I want to make.  So long as we have a heretical pope, which we do, collegiality and syncretism(which is what the NO is trying to weaponize) will never provide for what grace and the benefits of the true church do.  Our situation is comparable to Christs Passion and holy triduum, why not look to it to guide us.  During that time the scriptures show that John and Mary together were blessed to be present at the foot of the cross.  And, as catholics, that is where we need to be during this time.  We need to be like john with mary cognizant of the importance of peter and even devotion to peter where permitted because of Christ's promise to him.  I love being able to obey francis.  The problem is that I see so few occasions.  I love being able to obey benedict xvi when I can.  But, we cannot do it at the expense of john and mary.  What does all that mean?  Well, that is why I referred(I think I did) to it as a meditation.  
    Logged
    "A secure mind is like a continual feast" - Proverbs xv: 15

    Offline poche

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 16730
    • Reputation: +1218/-4688
    • Gender: Male
    Re: catholic answer on sspx attendance and marriage witness deal
    « Reply #27 on: January 30, 2018, 02:11:04 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!1
    • Quote from: cindy gibson on January 29, 2018, 06:11:11 PM
    Really bad news when "Catholic Answers sounds" like they are on your side. Time to run the opposite direction as fast as you can. :jumping2:
    You mean to say that you would run away when your legitimacy is recognized?
    Logged

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 41908
    • Reputation: +23946/-4345
    • Gender: Male
    Re: catholic answer on sspx attendance and marriage witness deal
    « Reply #28 on: January 30, 2018, 08:38:32 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: Last Tradhican on January 29, 2018, 02:08:24 PM
    They would today have to perform all those marriages over again.

    Rome could just grant a blanket sanatio in radice.
    Logged

    Offline TKGS

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 5768
    • Reputation: +4622/-480
    • Gender: Male
    Re: catholic answer on sspx attendance and marriage witness deal
    « Reply #29 on: January 30, 2018, 10:50:22 AM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: Ladislaus on January 30, 2018, 08:38:32 AM
    Rome could just grant a blanket sanatio in radice.
    They could; but they haven't.
    Logged
    Pages: 1 [2] 3
    « previous next »