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Author Topic: CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH SAYS EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS  (Read 5358 times)

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Offline LionelAndrades

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CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH SAYS EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS, OUTSIDE THE CHURCH THERE IS NO SALVATION
The Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC) teaches outside the Church there is no salvation; everyone needs to be a visible member of the Catholic Church to go to Heaven and avoid Hell and there are no exceptions. Just like Vatican Council II the Catechism is in harmony with the ex cathedra dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.

CCC 845,836 tells us everyone needs to enter the Church to be saved.

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N.845 To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son's Church. The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. The Church is "the world reconciled." She is that bark which "in the full sail of the Lord's cross, by the breath of the Holy Spirit, navigates safely in this world." According to another image dear to the Church Fathers, she is prefigured by Noah's ark, which alone saves from the flood.-Catechism of the Catholic Church n.845
"Outside the Church there is no salvation"

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.-Catechism of the Catholic Church 846


CCC 846,847 like Lumen Gentium 16 refer to implicit salvation, those saved ‘in certain circuмstances’ (Letter of the Holy Office 1949).They are known to God only.
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847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.-Catechism of the Catholic Church,N.847

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848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."-Catechism of the Catholic Church,N.848


Those saved implicitly (CCC 847,848) for us, they are just a concept, something hypothetical, a possibility. It is not explicit. Since it is not explicit it does not contradict CCC845, 836.It does not contradict Ad Gentes 7, Lumen Gentium 14 and the infallible teaching outside the church there is no salvation.

CCC836 which says all people need to enter the Catholic Church include all Christians who are not in full communion with the Catholic Church, Jesus’ Mystical Body.

If CCC 846,847(invincible ignorance etc) referred to explicit salvation, it would be irrational. Since we cannot judge who has a baptism of desire or is in genuine invincible ignorance.

It would also mean that the Catechism, which the ordinary Magisterium of the Church, is correcting and contradicting an ex cathedra teaching. So it would be a rejection of the dogma on the infallibility of the pope.

It would mean CCC 846,847 (implicit invincible ignorance etc) is a new Christian doctrine or Christian Revelation. Yet this teaching was not mentioned for the first time in the Catechism of the Catholic Church or Vatican Council II (Lumen Gentium16).It was referred to in the Letter of the Holy Office 1949 to the Archbishop of Boston, Richard Cushing. The popes over the centuries always considered those saved by implicit faith as, implicit. Hence the ex cathedra teaching said everyone with no exception needs explicit faith (the baptism of water and Catholic Faith).

So 846,847 do not refer to explicit salvation. Otherwise it would be irrational, illogical and contrary to the Magisterium of the past and present.

The Catholic Church is saying everybody needs to be a visible member of the Church to avoid Hell.

Those who are aware of Jesus and the Church and yet do not enter are on the way to Hell, definitely. CCC is also saying that all non-Catholics in general need to enter the Catholic Church to avoid Hell. All. If there is anyone among them with the baptism of desire, invincible ignorance etc (implicit faith) it will be known to God only. We cannot judge.
De facto everyone needs to enter the Catholic Church for salvation.

De jure there could be the probability, known only to God, of someone ‘in certain circuмstances’ (Letter of the Holy Office 1949) being saved with implicit faith. God will provide all the helps in the manner known to Him only; it could include explicit faith (the baptism of water).

So if someone says the Catechism says that they can be saved who are in invincible ignorance etc, the answer is: 'Yes, as a concept only. In principle.' De facto everyone explicitly needs to be a Catholic to go to Heaven is the teaching of the Catechism of the Catholic Church.(CCC 845)

In other words everyone needs to de facto be a 'card carrying member’ of the Catholic Church, everyone needs to have his name on a Parish Register. All who are in Heaven, people of different countries, cultures and times, are Catholics, the chosen people of God, the Elect, the people of the New Covenant.

Here is the ex cathedra dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.
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1. “There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved.” (Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, 1215). Ex Cathedra

2. “We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.” (Pope Boniface VIII, the Bull Unam Sanctam, 1302.) Ex Cathedra

3.“The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jєωs and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.” (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441) Ex Cathedra – from the website Catholicism.org and “No Salvation outside the Church”: Link List, the Three Dogmatic Statements Regarding EENS http://nosalvationoutsideofthecatholicchurch.blogspot.com/

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Offline Raoul76

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CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH SAYS EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS
« Reply #1 on: June 18, 2010, 05:57:39 PM »
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  • Calm down, Lionel.  One thing at a time.  You have to use the terms the way theologians use them.  But I think I understand what you're saying now.

    You are saying that baptism of desire and invincible ignorance are speculations but that no one has ever said EXPLICITLY that someone is saved without baptism, just that it is possible.

    This is what you call "implicit."  A better word would be "hypothetical."  

    ******

    Lionel, if I understand him correctly, thinks that BoD and implicit faith are speculations only, and that if he admits they are possible theoretically ( what he calls implicit ) he can still choose not to believe that they ever happen actually ( what he calls explicit ).

    Am I right that that is your position, Lionel?  I am somewhat close to your reasoning, in that I don't know if someone is ever said by any other means by water baptism.  But the problem for you is that you think that believing in baptism of desire or salvation by implicit faith is a violation of EENS.  In that case, speculating about its hypothetical existence would also be a violation of EENS.  Do yo see what I'm saying?

    Here's an example.  Would I be avoiding heresy if I said that I believe Jєωs might be saved by the Old Law, but that it was only a speculation and that I'm not sure it ever happens?  Of course not, because we know it NEVER happens.  We cannot speculate that Jєωs are saved under the Old Law.  The very idea is heretical.

    You are saying you believe in the possibility of BoD, as an allowed, hypothetical speculation, but at the same time, you don't believe in it and that it goes against dogma...  It doesn't really work.  You are twisting your mind into a pretzel.  But that is because you are a Novus Ordo Feeneyite.  My recommendation to you is to become a sedevacantist non-Feeneyite and watch all of these problems vanish like a breeze.
    Readers: Please IGNORE all my postings here. I was a recent convert and fell into errors, even heresy for which hopefully my ignorance excuses. These include rejecting the "rhythm method," rejecting the idea of "implicit faith," and being brieflfy quasi-Jansenist. I also posted occasions of sins and links to occasions of sin, not understanding the concept much at the time, so do not follow my links.


    Offline Raoul76

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    CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH SAYS EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS
    « Reply #2 on: June 18, 2010, 06:06:23 PM »
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  • Correction:  I am somewhat close to your reasoning, in that I don't know if someone is ever SAVED by any other means THAN water baptism.  

    Matthew, can we have more than ten minutes to correct posts?  I was making all these corrections and adding and excising and editing and rushing myself and look at the result.  
    Readers: Please IGNORE all my postings here. I was a recent convert and fell into errors, even heresy for which hopefully my ignorance excuses. These include rejecting the "rhythm method," rejecting the idea of "implicit faith," and being brieflfy quasi-Jansenist. I also posted occasions of sins and links to occasions of sin, not understanding the concept much at the time, so do not follow my links.

    Offline Raoul76

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    CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH SAYS EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS
    « Reply #3 on: June 18, 2010, 06:25:08 PM »
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  • Three words Lionel:  Principle of Non-Contradiction.
    Readers: Please IGNORE all my postings here. I was a recent convert and fell into errors, even heresy for which hopefully my ignorance excuses. These include rejecting the "rhythm method," rejecting the idea of "implicit faith," and being brieflfy quasi-Jansenist. I also posted occasions of sins and links to occasions of sin, not understanding the concept much at the time, so do not follow my links.

    Online Ladislaus

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    CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH SAYS EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS
    « Reply #4 on: June 18, 2010, 08:33:42 PM »
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  • Yeah, I think Lionel means

    explicit (baptism of desire)

    rather than

    baptism of explicit desire.

    Explicit is probably (well, definitely) not the correct word here.

    Nor does our understanding his meaning change the fact that Suprema Haec was NOT an endorsement of Father Feeney by any stretch of the imagination.



    Offline Raoul76

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    CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH SAYS EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS
    « Reply #5 on: June 18, 2010, 09:41:15 PM »
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  • Quote
    Nor does our understanding his meaning change the fact that Suprema Haec was NOT an endorsement of Father Feeney by any stretch of the imagination.


    No, it's the precise opposite.  I'm not sure if something is lost in translation or if being a Novus Ordo Feeneyite has gotten Lionel tangled up, trying to reconcile the irreconcilable.  But objective reality is not being respected here.

    Lionel Reopen Suprema Haec Sacra!

    P.S. The "economic recovery" has started to hit my favorite Friday fish-feast place.  The salmon portion they gave me has the size and depth and juiciness of half a graham cracker.
    Readers: Please IGNORE all my postings here. I was a recent convert and fell into errors, even heresy for which hopefully my ignorance excuses. These include rejecting the "rhythm method," rejecting the idea of "implicit faith," and being brieflfy quasi-Jansenist. I also posted occasions of sins and links to occasions of sin, not understanding the concept much at the time, so do not follow my links.

    Offline LionelAndrades

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    CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH SAYS EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS
    « Reply #6 on: June 19, 2010, 04:07:07 AM »
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  • Raol,
    Quote
    Correction: I am somewhat close to your reasoning, in that I don't know if someone is ever SAVED by any other means THAN water baptism.


    Everyone on earth needs the baptism of water and Catholic faith to be saved from Hell and we can speculate that there is a possibility, in 'certain circuмstances'(Letter of the Holy Office 1949) of some people being saved through the baptism of desire, invincible ignorance etc and which is known only to God.

    Offline LionelAndrades

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    CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH SAYS EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS
    « Reply #7 on: June 19, 2010, 04:11:20 AM »
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  • Raol,

    Quote
    Three words Lionel: Principle of Non-Contradiction.


    Correct - you cannot say that everyone needs explicit faith according to the ex cathedra dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus and at the same time say that people can be saved explicitly through the baptism of desire.

    However you can say that everyone needs explicit faith according to the ex cathedra dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus and at the same time say that people can be saved implicitly, in principle, as a theory, a concept, through the baptism of desire.
    In Christ

    Lionel


    Offline LionelAndrades

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    CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH SAYS EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS
    « Reply #8 on: June 19, 2010, 04:28:17 AM »
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  • Quote
    Nor does our understanding his meaning change the fact that Suprema Haec was NOT an endorsement of Father Feeney by any stretch of the imagination.


    The Suprema Haec (Letter of the Holy Office 1949) was an endorsement of the ex cathedra dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.

    Here is the ex cathedra dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus which Fr.Leonard Feeney and St.Benedict Center affirmed.
    Quote

    1. “There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved.” (Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, 1215). Ex Cathedra

    2. “We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.” (Pope Boniface VIII, the Bull Unam Sanctam, 1302.) Ex Cathedra

    3.“The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jєωs and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.” (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441) Ex Cathedra – from the website Catholicism.org and “No Salvation outside the Church”: Link List, the Three Dogmatic Statements Regarding EENS http://nosalvationoutsideofthecatholicchurch.blogspot.com/

    So Fr.Leoanrd Feeney said as did popes, Councils and saints over the centuries that everybody needs to explicitly be a member of the Catholic Church to be saved.

    The dogma above does not say that only those who know can be saved or those who are in invincible ignorance do not have to enter the Church.

    So the Letter of the Holy Office was endorsing the infallible teaching as it is and so was Fr.Leonard Feeney.

    If you say that Fr.Leonard rejected the baptism of desire and so was a heretic I would say that there is no baptism of desire that you can know of explicitly. So again Fr.Leonard was correct.
    In Christ
    Lionel


    Offline Thursday

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    CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH SAYS EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS
    « Reply #9 on: June 20, 2010, 07:13:43 AM »
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  • In my Missal (Father Steadman 1943) it says that there is no salvation outside the church for those who are convinced that the Catholic Church is the true church.

    That's all I know about it.

    Offline LionelAndrades

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    « Reply #10 on: June 20, 2010, 07:22:42 AM »
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  • Thursday,
    Praised be Jesus and Our Lady

    Quote
    In my Missal (Father Steadman 1943) it says that there is no salvation outside the church for those who are convinced that the Catholic Church is the true church.

    That's all I know about it.


    True- those who are convinced and do not enter the Catholic Church are on the way to Hell at the time of death.

    Also, those who know about Jesus and the Catholic Church and yet do not enter are also on the way to Hell.This would mean millions of educated people in modern cities.(Ad Gentes 7).

    Also, non-Catholics in general are on the way to Hell because of original sin and mortal sins committed in that state and not having the Sacraments of the Church to help them.(Ex cathedra extra ecclesiam nulla salus).

    In Christ
    Lionel


    Offline Matto

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    CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH SAYS EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS
    « Reply #11 on: June 20, 2010, 04:34:18 PM »
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  • I have often heard that God offers every single soul enough graces to be saved and that there is not a single soul in Hell who did not have a chance to be saved. I don't know if this is true or not, but if it is true then there must be some kind of Baptism of Desire where God incorporates certain souls into his Church in a miraculous way.
    R.I.P.
    Please pray for the repose of my soul.

    Offline LionelAndrades

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    CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH SAYS EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS
    « Reply #12 on: June 21, 2010, 08:13:08 AM »
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  • Matto

    Quote
    I have often heard that God offers every single soul enough graces to be saved and that there is not a single soul in Hell who did not have a chance to be saved. I don't know if this is true or not, but if it is true then there must be some kind of Baptism of Desire where God incorporates certain souls into his Church in a miraculous way.


    Salvation is available for everyone. However only those who respond can be saved. Those who do not respond to the Holy Spirit have themself to blame.
    So in general everyone must respond to Jesus' Great Sacrifice for them and say YES with the baptism of water and Catholic Faith.
    There could be exceptional cases, known only to God when someone receives the grace of the baptism of desire and is saved. This would be miraculous.
    In Christ
    Lionel

    Offline Matto

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    CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH SAYS EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS
    « Reply #13 on: June 21, 2010, 09:28:35 AM »
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  • The reason I ask is because I always thought that all of those who died in original sin alone, having never committed an actual sin, would go to the part of Hell called Limbo. But I do not know how to reconcile this with the idea that God gives everyone enough grace to be saved. Babies who die in miscarriages and abortions seem to have no chance to be saved because they die before sacramental Baptism is possible. Therefore, either God must give them a chance to receive a miraculous Baptism of Desire before they die in the womb which each soul can accept or reject, or it is not true that God gives everyone a chance to be saved. I do not know what to believe and I have never heard this properly explained. Has the Church ever said that every soul receives enough graces to be saved, or is this just something that many people want to believe that is not really true, and that because of Man's sins, there are some souls created that have no chance of being saved.
    R.I.P.
    Please pray for the repose of my soul.

    Offline LionelAndrades

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    CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH SAYS EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS
    « Reply #14 on: June 22, 2010, 08:21:59 AM »
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  • Matto

    Quote
    The reason I ask is because I always thought that all of those who died in original sin alone, having never committed an actual sin, would go to the part of Hell called Limbo.


    I have also believed in the same.

    Quote
    But I do not know how to reconcile this with the idea that God gives everyone enough grace to be saved.


    Adults.

    Babies who die in miscarriages and abortions seem to have no chance to be saved because they die before sacramental Baptism is possible.

    They go to Limbo which is neither Heaven nor Hell.

     Therefore, either God must give them a chance to receive a miraculous Baptism of Desire before they die in the womb which each soul can accept or reject, or it is not true that God gives everyone a chance to be saved.

    I think babies go to Limbo and adults with the Baptism of Desire can be saved.

     
    Quote
    I do not know what to believe and I have never heard this properly explained. Has the Church ever said that every soul receives enough graces to be saved,


    We believe Jesus died for all people and that the Holy Spirit makes this grace available for all, within every person is a knowledge of what is right and wrong.

    Quote
    or is this just something that many people want to believe that is not really true, and that because of Man's sins, there are some souls created that have no chance of being saved.

    I believe God is Love and he loves everyone of us without exception and those who reject Him in his Son Jesus, God gives them the freedom to choose an eternity without Him.
    In Christ
    Lionel