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Author Topic: Cassiciacuм thesis vs Fr. Chazal's position  (Read 5287 times)

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Offline Hank Igitur

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Re: Cassiciacuм thesis vs Fr. Chazal's position
« Reply #60 on: December 22, 2023, 02:09:11 PM »
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  • Fr. Chazal accepts Jorge Bergoglio ontologically as pope whereas sedeprivationism does not.  Therefore, they are substantially different.  Your use of the term "version" makes it sound like the two are substantially the same.  Please explain.
    Gladly. Both Fr. Chazal and the Sedeprivationists accept that there is a material pope occupying the throne. Thus, according to both of them, there is an ontological pope (i.e. a pope that currently exists). Fr. Chazal (a Sedeimpoundist) and Bp. Sanborn (a Sedeprivationist) both claim that this ontological pope's powers are "withheld" and "deprived" only Fr. Chazal uses the term "impound" while Bp. Sanborn uses the term "privation". If something is withheld from someone then that someone is deprived of the thing being withheld: both priests are saying the exact same thing, only they are using different words to convey the same message. Some may call these terms an "unnecessary word salad" that these learned clergy throw around for the purpose of either showing their parishioners just how very learned they really are (which is an example of intellectual pride) or attempting to hold onto as many parishioners as possible (which will become a significant issue once many parishioners learn just how inane both positions truly are.   

    Offline Hank Igitur

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    Re: Cassiciacuм thesis vs Fr. Chazal's position
    « Reply #61 on: December 22, 2023, 02:19:33 PM »
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  • And let's not forget the recent abhorrent practice of "weaponizing the sacraments" against the faithful which some of these Sedeprivationist clergy are still doing. When they refuse to give sacraments to the faithful laity, they are, in essence, playing pope. Only they won't call themselves "pope" but rather a different title such as "Superior General". What all this boils down to is the fact that all of this talk of Sedeimpoundism vs. Sedeprivationism is all just a big colossal nothing burger. It's mere verbal gymnastics that solves absolutely nothing.   


    Offline Your Friend Colin

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    Re: Cassiciacuм thesis vs Fr. Chazal's position
    « Reply #62 on: December 22, 2023, 02:20:28 PM »
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  • The way the sede mind works continually amazes me.

    If the pope cannot harm the Church, then there is no reason for sedeism - or tradition for that matter.

     If you think the pope was replaced by a phony, you only think that in order to maintain your sede belief, a belief which: "entails an entire set of beliefs and practices set apart from the rest beyond merely not believing these Popes are legitimate."
    I log in for the first time in two and a half years and you’re still spewing the same junk. Have you ever even bothered to research the Church’s teaching concerning her immunity from error? 

    Quote
    Pope Gregory XVI, Commissum Divinitus (# 4), May 17, 1835:

    ".. the Church has, by its divine institution, the power of the magisterium to teach and define matters of faith and morals and to interpret the Holy Scriptures without danger of error."

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    “If the living magisterium could be in any way false — an evident contradiction would follow, for then God would be the author of error.”

    Pope Leo XIII
    Satis Cognitum


    Quote
    St Leo IX, Terra Pax

    The holy Church built upon a rock, that is Christ, and upon Peter or Cephas, the son of John who first was called Simon, because by the gates of Hell, that is, by the disputations of heretics which lead the vain to destruction, it would never be overcome?


    The same Son declares that He obtained the effect of this promise from the Father by prayers, by saying to Peter: "Simon, Simon, behold Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and thou, being once converted, confirm thy brethren." [Lk 22:31]. Therefore, will there be anyone so foolish as to dare to regard His prayer as in anyway vain whose being willing is being able?



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    Now it is plain on the surface, that those who limit the Church's infallibility to her definitions of faith, admit indeed her infallibility as " testis ;" and to some limited extent as "judex;" but that they deny infallibility to her altogether, in her capacity of "magistra." No such view, however, is so much as known to approved theologians. According to their unanimous teaching, the Church is infallible, not only in witnessing and in judging, but in practically guiding her children to salvation.

    THE AUTHORITY of
    DOCTRINAL DECISIONS
    WHICH ARE NOT DEFINITIONS OF FAITH,
    WILLIAM GEORGE WARD, D.Pr.
    1866.

    Quote
    Has the Church in fact proved itself infallible?-It is a historical fact that the Catholic Church, from the twentieth century back to the first, has not once ceased to teach a doctrine on faith or morals previously held, and with the same interpreta-tion; the Church has proved itself infallible.

    1. It is a historical fact that not one-Pope, whatever he was in his private life, has ever taught error.

    "My Catholic Faith" (1954) by Bishop Louis LaRavoire Morrow


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    “No Pope has erred in matters of faith."

    Source: "On the Apostolical and Infallible Authority of the Pope" (1869) by Fr F. X. Weninger, SJ.

    Quote
    “All the strength of the Church is in the Pope; all the foundations of our Faith are based on the successor of Peter.”

    - Pope Saint Pius X

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    "In his capacity as head, do not all his members owe him the solemn promise of canonical obedience, which alone can maintain unity in the Church and avoid schisms in this mystical body founded by Christ our Lord?"

    Pope Pius VI
    Quod Aliquantum

    Your false and heretical beliefs are anathema. Put aside your pride and believe all that the Holy Church of God has revealed. 

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Cassiciacuм thesis vs Fr. Chazal's position
    « Reply #63 on: December 22, 2023, 02:24:41 PM »
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  • You must misinterpret then contradict that Scripture in order to arrive at your conclusion. He says in no uncertain terms, "tho we or an angel from heaven..." Which is to say, error is error no matter who preaches it.

    What that Scripture is teaching is very simply, truth before authority.


    Hang it there, Stubborn, against the wise guys with their syllogisms and "knowledge falsely so called" (1 Tim. 6:20), blind to their contradictions. You're right, it's not that complicated.



    Quote

    2 Cor. 11:3 - But I fear lest, as the serpent seduced Eve by his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted, and fall from the simplicity that is in Christ.



    One does not reject authority when one holds it bound to truth (Scripture and Tradition), but one can reject truth when one binds it to men and authority, as the times give it proof.
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Cassiciacuм thesis vs Fr. Chazal's position
    « Reply #64 on: December 22, 2023, 03:35:38 PM »
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  • Hang it there, Stubborn, against the wise guys with their syllogisms and "knowledge falsely so called" (1 Tim. 6:20), blind to their contradictions. You're right, it's not that complicated.
    I'm not going anywhere, as I said, the sede mind is a continual source of amazement to me, it's something that interests me.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Your Friend Colin

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    Re: Cassiciacuм thesis vs Fr. Chazal's position
    « Reply #65 on: December 22, 2023, 03:46:57 PM »
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  • I log in for the first time in two and a half years and you’re still spewing the same junk. Have you ever even bothered to research the Church’s teaching concerning her immunity from error?





    Your false and heretical beliefs are anathema. Put aside your pride and believe all that the Holy Church of God has revealed.
    Two downvotes for simply providing Magisterial teachings and exhorting a man to renounce his errors in light of the facts. 

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Cassiciacuм thesis vs Fr. Chazal's position
    « Reply #66 on: December 22, 2023, 04:43:52 PM »
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  • Two downvotes for simply providing Magisterial teachings and exhorting a man to renounce his errors in light of the facts.

    I downvoted you for telling Stubborn to "put away his pride." Pride is not what's going on with Stubborn at all

    If you put away the "heresy, heresy, pants on fire" attitude, we can discuss it reasonably. I understand that that might be impossible because you believe Stubborn's (and my) view is heresy, and I respect that, if not the finger pointing. 
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: Cassiciacuм thesis vs Fr. Chazal's position
    « Reply #67 on: December 22, 2023, 07:58:45 PM »
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  • Gladly. Both Fr. Chazal and the Sedeprivationists accept that there is a material pope occupying the throne. Thus, according to both of them, there is an ontological pope (i.e. a pope that currently exists). Fr. Chazal (a Sedeimpoundist) and Bp. Sanborn (a Sedeprivationist) both claim that this ontological pope's powers are "withheld" and "deprived" only Fr. Chazal uses the term "impound" while Bp. Sanborn uses the term "privation". If something is withheld from someone then that someone is deprived of the thing being withheld: both priests are saying the exact same thing, only they are using different words to convey the same message. Some may call these terms an "unnecessary word salad" that these learned clergy throw around for the purpose of either showing their parishioners just how very learned they really are (which is an example of intellectual pride) or attempting to hold onto as many parishioners as possible (which will become a significant issue once many parishioners learn just how inane both positions truly are. 

    By ontological I meant a man upon whom God has conferred the papal office.  Fr. Chazal holds the God has conferred the papal office upon Jorge Bergoglio and is therefore a pope in act, whereas Bishop Sanborn holds that Jorge Bergoglio has the material aspect but not the formal aspect and is therefore a pope only in potency.


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Cassiciacuм thesis vs Fr. Chazal's position
    « Reply #68 on: December 23, 2023, 04:24:45 AM »
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  • I log in for the first time in two and a half years and you’re still spewing the same junk. Have you ever even bothered to research the Church’s teaching concerning her immunity from error?
    The pope is not the Church.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Cassiciacuм thesis vs Fr. Chazal's position
    « Reply #69 on: December 23, 2023, 06:10:53 AM »
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  • I'm not going anywhere, as I said, the sede mind is a continual source of amazement to me, it's something that interests me.
    I wish you would stop writing things like this.  You imply that we're freaks in need of scientific analysis in your lab. 

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Cassiciacuм thesis vs Fr. Chazal's position
    « Reply #70 on: December 23, 2023, 06:40:50 AM »
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  • The pope is not the Church.

    You have made *yourself* the final arbiter on what is and what isn’t Catholic teaching.

    Contrast what you said to this:

    Venerable Pius IX: “I am the Church, I am tradition”!

    Of course you will just ignore this as you are your own pope.
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Cassiciacuм thesis vs Fr. Chazal's position
    « Reply #71 on: December 23, 2023, 08:46:33 AM »
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  • I wish you would stop writing things like this.  You imply that we're freaks in need of scientific analysis in your lab.
    Sorry 2V, that was not my intention.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Cassiciacuм thesis vs Fr. Chazal's position
    « Reply #72 on: December 23, 2023, 08:51:11 AM »
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  • You have made *yourself* the final arbiter on what is and what isn’t Catholic teaching.

    Contrast what you said to this:

    Venerable Pius IX: “I am the Church, I am tradition”!

    Of course you will just ignore this as you are your own pope.
    No, I do not make myself the final arbiter, nor have I learned my faith from any pope directly, anymore than you, who have lived your entire life without any pope at all. 

    I posted a Fr. Hesse video who addresses what PPIX said in your quote above. Also, PPIX and other popes taught  Christ and the Church are one and the same - fyi.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Cassiciacuм thesis vs Fr. Chazal's position
    « Reply #73 on: December 23, 2023, 10:29:39 AM »
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  • Sorry 2V, that was not my intention.
    Thank you.  Maybe just re-word it in the future then, please.

    Offline Your Friend Colin

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    Re: Cassiciacuм thesis vs Fr. Chazal's position
    « Reply #74 on: December 23, 2023, 02:20:22 PM »
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  • The pope is not the Church.
    The Pope is the supreme ruler and teacher of the Church. 

    Quote
    The Catholic doctrine touching the Church as the rule of faith

    The term Church, in this connection, can only denote the teaching Church, as is clear from the passages already quoted from the New Testament and the Fathers. But the teaching Church may be regarded either as the whole body of the episcopate, whether scattered throughout the world or collected in an ecuмenical council, or it may be synonymous with the successor of St. Peter, the Vicar of Christ. Now the teaching Church is the Apostolic body continuing to the end of time (Matthew 28:19-20); but only one of the bishops, viz., the Bishop of Rome, is the successor of St. Peter; he alone can be regarded as the living Apostle and Vicar of Christ, and it is only by union with him that the rest of the episcopate can be said to possess the Apostolic character (Vatican Council, Sess. IV, Prooemium). Hence, unless they be united with the Vicar of Christ, it is futile to appeal to the episcopate in general as the rule of faith