Catholic Info
Traditional Catholic Faith => Crisis in the Church => Topic started by: Alexandria on June 21, 2010, 01:49:30 PM
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This should prove interesting.
I do not understand why people think he was a "pope in hiding." I know all about the white smoke/black smoke confusion. I have read that he was elected and declined because he feared for what might happen to his family.
Does anyone here have any real evidence that they can show me? I've never really looked too much into this because it always sounded so far-fetched to me.
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It doesn't much matter. Think of it this way -- if it were true, and he were elected Pope but then was forced to resign, how would he have called a college of cardinals together to elect a successor?
The Siri theorists believe he was not only Pope, but that he started his own underground line of Popes. But at the same time, the whole reasoning behind the Siri thesis is that he was pressured not to say he was Pope, and that he was followed and kept under surveillance during his whole life to make sure he didn't spill the beans.
So let me get this straight -- he was kept under surveillance so intently that he could barely breathe, he couldn't speak about his true status as Pope. Yet somehow, despite this 24/7 surveillance, despite the bodyguards who would kill him if he so much as breathed a word about his true status, he was able to appoint a bunch of cardinals who would elect his successor?
Doesn't really work, does it? David Hobson, main proponent of the Siri thesis, once wrote to me something about how he can't tell me now how Siri appointed a successor but all will be revealed, etc. A scam may be involved whereby someone will emerge out of the blue with the fabled "successor to Siri," who would really be an actor or vagrant priest or something like that. But I think the Siri thesis is not really taking off like Hobson had hoped, and it's petering out more and more by the day.
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I dont buy ti at all-though will remain open minded, it is I think more urban legend....
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Whatever the problems with Gregory XVII, there are far more with any other scenario. Over 30 yrs he would have had the opportunity to appoint a curia one way or another.
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If the Siri thesis is true and there is a real Pope in exile, I can't wait for him to come out of hiding and challenge the legitimacy of Benedict or one of his successors. If he were indeed the true Pope God would probably support his cause with great miracles and he would be successful in reclaiming his throne.
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Can it, Augustine.
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Raoul, you are mistaken about my identity. Please do not accuse me of being this Augustine whenever you see one of my posts.
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Not all proponents of the Siri theory believe that he appointed a successor. There's no credible evidence for that.
I do believe that he was elected and forced to step down.
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If Siri was forced to step down in accepting the
papacy because of threats. If this proves to be
the truth, and all the Cardinals that participated
in the conclave of 1958, and 1963, had knowledge
of these facts.
Would the elections of John XXlll and Paul Vl
be valid?
What about this seal of secrecy that the
Cardinals had to take to never reveal what
really happened during these Conclaves?
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Yeah, there are lots of questions regarding the details. We don't know whether everyone there knew he stepped down under duress. It's possible that the threats were communicated privately and that many or most of those voting in the conclave were not aware of why Siri stepped down.
If Siri was elected, accepted, and then resigned under duress, then the elections of J23, P6, and JP2 would have been invalid. St. Francis had a prophecy about an "uncanonically elected" pope who would wreak havoc on the Church.
To me, the best evidence might be the FBI docs cited by Paul Williams. It not only mentions that Siri was elected but that he had taken the name Gregory XVII. That's some pretty specific information (the exact name) which also indicates that Siri had in fact accepted the election.
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If it proves that Siri was forced from the papacy under
duress. Them all actions of J23, P6, JP11, and Benedict
are invalid, including all reforms after 1958, and
vatican 2 and its sequence reforms are all invalid.
Why did not a Cardinal talk even from his death bed!
It just proves that these Cardinals were just materialists,
and that had a very little in the way of spiritual.
Why was the oath of secrecy is so important when
the salvation of souls is much more important.
If Siri was allowed to assumed the Papacy forums
like this one may not exist because there would be
One Holy Catholic Church that existed up to the
death of Pius Xll.
It is a mystery why Roncalli took the name of an
antipope that already reigned John XXlll.
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I do not believe that the last John of the GWS has been formally declared an anti-pope. My understanding is that he actually was the one GWS Pope who waxed heretical but that he recanted and it was forgotten.
There was a prev John 23( or 22?) as an anti-pope though.
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the best evidence might be the FBI docs cited by Paul Williams.
He made it up. There is no such evidence. The fact that they have to appeal to the "FBI" for information regarding a Papal conclave is in itself ridiculous.
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Malachi Martin wrote about this in Keys to this Blood. He said that Siri was put under duress in what he calls "the little brutality."
I think this is a very likely scenario, if he declined the papacy while under duress this woulld maKE HIM THE TRUE POPE. It would be virtually the same if they came in with strongman and just kicked out the old pope and put the new guy on.
I don't have the reference handy now but I believe he was selected again in 1964 and in 1978, according to Malachia Martin.
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Mo is that like the Dimond Bros, M Martin has some things right. :smoke-pot:
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Funny, John Lane didn't want people discussing this topic on the Ballarmine forums
http://www.sedevacantist.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=128
And you can't discuss this topic on Fisheaters
http://catholicforum.fisheaters.com/index.php/topic,3428084.msg33239675.html#msg33239675
If it gets stopped here my curiosity will really be tweaked.
Lane recommended this site for info on the siri thesis
http://www.eclipseofthechurch.com/Articles.htm
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Malachi Martin wrote about this in Keys to this Blood. He said that Siri was put under duress in what he calls "the little brutality."
I think this is a very likely scenario, if he declined the papacy while under duress this woulld maKE HIM THE TRUE POPE. It would be virtually the same if they came in with strongman and just kicked out the old pope and put the new guy on.
I don't have the reference handy now but I believe he was selected again in 1964 and in 1978, according to Malachia Martin.
I wouldn't take his word for much.
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This is the I dunno... dozenth thread about this in as long as I've been here, and I still have the information for those people that want to look this stuff up.
I was going to go to the national archives when I was pregnant with my now 11 month old, but by the time I got the info, it was too late. I couldn't fly safely that pregnant, much less be walking around DC by myself.
So, if anyone wants to have this information, please ask me in a PM, and I'll get it to you so you can go to the National Archives yourself and look this stuff up in the boxes the stuff you want might be in.
I used to be a proponent of this theory, but, as all of you, I haven't been able to find concrete proof, and the guy that said he would share his information with me, sent me three semi-interesting things, and promised to send me more, and never did citing the "holy see" told him he couldn't... so... Incidentally, it happens to be the one person that has a website dedicated to the true holy see and restoration, TCW, and the pope in red.
This is public information. All of us have access to it, if we can go down there and get it ourselves. Hopefully, the next person that volunteers to go over there, will be kind enough to share it with us and stop being so esoteric about it. If it's true, then LET IT SEE THE LIGHT OF DAY, if it's not, then we should be able to dismiss it certainly.
I have about 4 box numbers if you want to take a jaunt down to the National Archives in Washington, DC.
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There are many more sources for the info that just Williams or Hobson.
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http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0oGdCl.kyFMd10A4vNXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTEzbjRvMjgwBHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDMgRjb2xvA3NrMQR2dGlkA0Y2NjZfMTEx/SIG=11q4v37v4/EXP=1277355262/**http%3a//www.thepopeinred.com/thesis.htm
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Malfunction.
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the best evidence might be the FBI docs cited by Paul Williams.
He made it up. There is no such evidence. The fact that they have to appeal to the "FBI" for information regarding a Papal conclave is in itself ridiculous.
Not likely. His comments came off-hand in a footnote, and he cited specific docuмents as his sources. What's more likely is that these docs have since been buried away again--away from the light of day. Someone got wind of the fact that Williams let it slip out and told him to shut up.
What's ridiculous is your attitude that this scenario must be considered impossible.
You can be pretty sure that both the US and the Soviets had spies within the conclave.
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There are many more sources for the info that just Williams or Hobson.
Where is the docuмented proof in hard copies, Roscoe? Even you haven't delivered there. I've tried to find it. I told you where you could potentially find it, and no one has given me anything.
You seem to know, so where is it?
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the best evidence might be the FBI docs cited by Paul Williams.
He made it up. There is no such evidence. The fact that they have to appeal to the "FBI" for information regarding a Papal conclave is in itself ridiculous.
Pretty laughable you would say this, Caminus. You say "there is no such evidence" however, he cited it wrong on purpose so that people wouldn't be able to find it. I researched this. I spoke to the archivists from the DoS and from NARA. I checked with the National Archives, so I can say your statement is patently false. Why don't -you- go over there? I'll even give you the box numbers so you can check stuff out.
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Oh gimme a break, you are too gullible. I don't care if he purposely gave specifically false information, though I'm not surprised for the man is simply not credible. My contention is that the entire claim is ridiculous. It exists in the realm of imagination.
The only man I know who is emotionally attached to this theory is a very troubled and irratic individual.
Even supposed there is some declassified FBI docuмent purporting that Siri was elected, what does that prove exactly? What kind of authority does such a statement carry? Do you really put that much trust in foreign intelligence? Or only when it suits a fancy?
Siri denied that he was Pope by admitting that he was bound by the secret of the conclave. In order to advance such a claim, you would necessarily imply that Siri was lying or deceiving. Not a very good start for the Pope who was to save the Church.
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There are many more sources for the info that just Williams or Hobson.
Where is the docuмented proof in hard copies, Roscoe? Even you haven't delivered there. I've tried to find it. I told you where you could potentially find it, and no one has given me anything.
You seem to know, so where is it?
I was not a member of the Curia or at the Vatican in 1958. Of course I do not have t 'docuмented proof'. If that is what U need, then go follow the anti-popes.
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Here is another source gleaned from somewhere on this site
http://www.eclipseofthechurch.com/Articles.htm
Additionally, I believe there is someone named Giufre who has published this info.
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It's easy to talk about how bogus it is, Caminus, if you haven't seen it. An honest person would at least look into the possibility instead of dismissing it because of one proponent of this theory.
It's stupid to throw the baby out with the bath water, and that's essentially what you are doing when you dismiss this because of --- you know who.
And you cite that he couldn't tell the secret. Sure, a dumb thing for a pope to do, however, how many dumb things have we seen the conciliar popes do?
That is really a stupid argument.
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Here is another source gleaned from somewhere on this site
http://www.eclipseofthechurch.com/Articles.htm
Additionally, I believe there is someone named Giufre who has published this info.
I think Giuffre dismissed it. He was working with the Gibsons on it, (specifically Hutton) and I guess the deal was off.
I would have liked to see what he had. I think they even had a movie they were going to put together on this, but I haven't heard anything for years.
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It's not an argument, its about someone's credibility.
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It's easy to talk about how bogus it is, Caminus, if you haven't seen it. An honest person would at least look into the possibility instead of dismissing it because of one proponent of this theory.
It's stupid to throw the baby out with the bath water, and that's essentially what you are doing when you dismiss this because of --- you know who.
And you cite that he couldn't tell the secret. Sure, a dumb thing for a pope to do, however, how many dumb things have we seen the conciliar popes do?
That is really a stupid argument.
been looking at it-largely do not buy Siri thesis, but will keep mind open......
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Not all proponents of the Siri theory believe that he appointed a successor. There's no credible evidence for that.
I do believe that he was elected and forced to step down.
maybe, but if elected, he chose to step down, so after that, was not a pope or pope in the making....some have stepped down in the past, hence other men then elected.....some have refused to give in and were martyred.....the thesis, if true, still casts a poor pall over Siri....
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Here is another source gleaned from somewhere on this site
http://www.eclipseofthechurch.com/Articles.htm
Additionally, I believe there is someone named Giufre who has published this info.
I think Giuffre dismissed it. He was working with the Gibsons on it, (specifically Hutton) and I guess the deal was off.
I would have liked to see what he had. I think they even had a movie they were going to put together on this, but I haven't heard anything for years.
If you go to www.huttongibson.com, he has books that you can download. Download The Enemy Is Still Here III. I'm not sure where it is in the book, but he goes into what happened with Giuffre.
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maybe, but if elected, he chose to step down, so after that, was not a pope or pope in the making....some have stepped down in the past, hence other men then elected.....some have refused to give in and were martyred.....the thesis, if true, still casts a poor pall over Siri....
That's completely wrong. If he stepped down under duress, his stepping down would have been invalid and the subsequent election uncanonical. What it says about Siri doesn't ultimately matter. We don't know the kinds of threats to which he may have been subjected. One anecdotal report had the Soviets threatening to nuke the Vatican and various cities if Siri had gone on to be pope.
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that despite his conservatism he celebrated the Mass according to the reformed 1970 Roman Missal and the other revised sacraments, and that he signed all of the docuмents of the Second Vatican Council.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giuseppe_Siri#Conclave_speculation
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maybe, but if elected, he chose to step down, so after that, was not a pope or pope in the making....some have stepped down in the past, hence other men then elected.....some have refused to give in and were martyred.....the thesis, if true, still casts a poor pall over Siri....
That's completely wrong. If he stepped down under duress, his stepping down would have been invalid and the subsequent election uncanonical. What it says about Siri doesn't ultimately matter. We don't know the kinds of threats to which he may have been subjected. One anecdotal report had the Soviets threatening to nuke the Vatican and various cities if Siri had gone on to be pope.
And this is why I wanted to look into it, because obviously the name "Gregory XVII" didn't get out there by accident. I just want to know the circuмstances, and if he really were the pope, then we have an obligation to find out what happened.
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What needs to be established is whether he was put under duress not to accept the papacy. Whether he said the NO mass or signed the docuмents is another matter, the enemy obvious has its ways of making people do things. He is quoted as saying they can kill me at any time.
Listen to the 1 hr interview from the Richard Syrett show on David Hobson's website.
http://www.todayscatholicworld.com/listensubscribe.htm
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What a terrific "pope" in hiding. "But if he did not celebrate the new "Mass", the evildoers would have done something really, really bad. And if he didn't sign all of the docuмents of the Second Vatican Council, those evildoers would again have done something really, really bad!!" :shocked:
Ok, nice try. Second Vatican Council = Heretical. Those signing the docuмents are signing onto heresy.
"But the agent David Hobson tell me..."
Next topic. :wink:
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Speaking of Cardinal Siri and the papacy, does anyone here know what happened to the website run by that couple in southern Idaho that had information on it about him? It seems to have disappeared. Perhaps they had a change of heart?
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Malfunction.
Need input? :laugh1:
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Whatever the problems that come after the first white smoke, Siri is the only cardinal that can claim to be validly elected.
Alexandria-- do you remember the name of the site?