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Author Topic: Cardinal Siri and the Dissent of Genoa  (Read 12129 times)

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Offline ServusSpiritusSancti

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Cardinal Siri and the Dissent of Genoa
« Reply #30 on: April 11, 2012, 10:10:15 AM »
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  • That is not correct, Ecclesia. Read what Pope Paul IV said in 1559:

    Quote
    "- Such promotion or election in and of itself, even with the agreement and unanimous consent of all the cardinals, shall be null, legally invalid and void.

    "- It shall not be possible for such a promotion or election to be deemed valid or to be valid, neither through reception of office, consecration, subsequent administration, or possession, nor even through the putative enthronement of a Roman Pontiff himself, together with the veneration and obedience accorded him by all.
    Please ignore ALL of my posts. I was naive during my time posting on this forum and didn’t know any better. I retract and deeply regret any and all uncharitable or erroneous statements I ever made here.

    Offline Ecclesia Militans

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    Cardinal Siri and the Dissent of Genoa
    « Reply #31 on: April 11, 2012, 11:07:53 AM »
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  • Quote from: Thursday
    Aha, so you think the last 5 popes are legit but condemn Siri because he "went along with their changes."


    They are legitimate popes, but their words and actions are still condemnable.


    Offline Ecclesia Militans

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    Cardinal Siri and the Dissent of Genoa
    « Reply #32 on: April 11, 2012, 11:09:19 AM »
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  • Quote from: SpiritusSanctus
    That is not correct, Ecclesia. Read what Pope Paul IV said in 1559:

    Quote
    "- Such promotion or election in and of itself, even with the agreement and unanimous consent of all the cardinals, shall be null, legally invalid and void.

    "- It shall not be possible for such a promotion or election to be deemed valid or to be valid, neither through reception of office, consecration, subsequent administration, or possession, nor even through the putative enthronement of a Roman Pontiff himself, together with the veneration and obedience accorded him by all.


    cuм has no canonical force.

    Offline Elizabeth

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    Cardinal Siri and the Dissent of Genoa
    « Reply #33 on: April 11, 2012, 11:25:08 AM »
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  • Quote from: Thursday
    Quote from: Elizabeth
    Very interesting, Thurs. !   :cheers:

    I'd love to hear more.  It is very heartening to hear there are some of Card. Siri's men around.



    From a book on the state of the Church of Genoa and Italy from 1976. Author is neither for against Siri. Translated from Italian.

    "… But the serious question for him (Siri) was the fact that every day the local and national press spoke of the protest of the Church in Genoa. From Rome they were content to established that not only the diocese but also more openly rigidly anti-conciliar were affected by the dispute. Not wanting to use more methods of discipline they leave  Cardinal Siri be that no bishop could more legitimately, second to the texts of the council. Cardinal Siri was so good at the game against Rome they did not want to push the bishop into schism by preventing anti-conciliar gestures. Whoever would bother to ask the Bishops' Conference news on the matter were told to be patient because Cardinal Siri of Genoa would soon be gone. How many times was it announced that the pope had asked Cardinal Siri of Genoa to leave! But Cardinal Siri after the ouster from the presidency of the bishops' conference did not want to lose the last place with which he had left to lead the battle against the church council. He still had friends in Rome, was linked to many bishops who did not approve of the line of the secretariat of the Conference of Bishops. From all over the world came to him consent to his pastoral letters. He always felt at the center of the anti-concliar, worldwide restoration movement, a kind of anti-pope in pectore."


    So, there is gathering evidence that rumors of Siri sitting back and doing nothing, are born of ignorance.   Thanks, Thurs.   And thanks to whomever has been translating this interesting information.  It all seemed to dry up, about Siri, and it is awesome to get some fresh perspective.

    Offline Ecclesia Militans

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    Cardinal Siri and the Dissent of Genoa
    « Reply #34 on: April 11, 2012, 11:48:37 AM »
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  • Quote from: Ecclesia Militans
    Quote from: SpiritusSanctus
    That is not correct, Ecclesia. Read what Pope Paul IV said in 1559:

    Quote
    "- Such promotion or election in and of itself, even with the agreement and unanimous consent of all the cardinals, shall be null, legally invalid and void.

    "- It shall not be possible for such a promotion or election to be deemed valid or to be valid, neither through reception of office, consecration, subsequent administration, or possession, nor even through the putative enthronement of a Roman Pontiff himself, together with the veneration and obedience accorded him by all.


    cuм has no canonical force.


    And cuм dealt with the election of a heretic and not someone refusing the papacy because of  pressure.


    Offline ServusSpiritusSancti

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    Cardinal Siri and the Dissent of Genoa
    « Reply #35 on: April 11, 2012, 01:37:56 PM »
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  • Quote from: Ecclesia Militans
    And cuм dealt with the election of a heretic


    And that is precisely why it applies to John XXIII, Paul VI, JPII, and Benedict XVI.
    Please ignore ALL of my posts. I was naive during my time posting on this forum and didn’t know any better. I retract and deeply regret any and all uncharitable or erroneous statements I ever made here.

    Offline KofCTrad

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    Cardinal Siri and the Dissent of Genoa
    « Reply #36 on: April 11, 2012, 03:01:16 PM »
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  • Quote from: Ecclesia Militans
    III. Valid Elections
    However, the claim is made: "We are still in the period of 'sede vacante'; no valid pope has been elected since Pope Pius XII."
    To this statement a few things can be said. First, a question: Who has the responsibility of saying that the pope’s election was doubtful? The layman in the street? A Bishop? The College of Cardinals? A Council? There is no clear answer to this question. So, just because someone says an election is invalid, this does not make the election invalid. Have there been elections to the papacy since Pope Pius XII? Yes, there have been 4 elections to the Chair of Peter.
    How can we look at these elections? Certain sedevacantists say that they are invalid because the person elected was not a legitimate candidate for the office. For argument’s sake, let us briefly entertain this possibility to show why it in no way would jeopardize the last four pontificates. I defer to the theologian Cardinal Billot, the Doctor St. Alphonsus De Liguori, and the great Benedictine Abbot, Prosper Guéranger. They give the following rule: "The peaceful and universal acceptance of a pope by the whole Church is a sign and effect of a valid election."
    Cardinal Billot (the great Jesuit theologian of the first half of this century) states:
    "Finally, what one may think of the possibility or the impossibility of an heretical pope, there is at least one point absolutely clear which no one can put in doubt, and it is that the acceptance, the adherence, of the Universal Church to a pope will always be, by itself, the infallible sign of the legitimacy of such-and-such a pontiff; and consequently of the existence of all the conditions required for legitimacy." And this is based on the Church’s attribute of Indefectibility as defined by "the promise of the infallible Providence of Christ [that] ‘the gates of hell shall not prevail against it’ and ‘Behold, I am with you all days even unto the end of the world.’ For the adherence of the Church to a false pontiff would be the same thing as its adherence to a false rule of Faith, since the pope is the living rule of the Faith that the Church has to follow, and that in fact, She always follows."
    He continues:
    "God some times can allow that the vacancy of the Apostolic See be for a certain time. He can allow also that a doubt may come concerning the legitimacy of such-and-such an election, but He cannot allow that the whole Church accept as a pontiff one who is not really legitimate. Therefore, from the moment that the pope is accepted by the Church and is united to Her as the head to the body, we can no longer raise the doubt on the possible bias of election or the possible lack of the necessary conditions for legitimacy. Because this adherence of the Church heals in its root all faults committed at the moment of election, and proves infallibly the existence of all the conditions required."
    For example, if a Cardinal would have "bought" the papacy (by simony), and the Church accepts the election, that person would be validly pope. There is strong evidence to suggest that this, in fact, did happen with the election of Pope Alexander VI.
    St. Alphonsus states that:
    "It doesn’t matter that in past centuries some pontiff has been elected in an illegitimate fashion or has taken possession of the pontificate by fraud: it suffices that he has been accepted after as pope by all the Church, for this fact he has become the true pontiff."
    St. Alphonsus follows the principle that if the whole Church, and mainly the clergy of Rome accept this man as pope, the man is the pope.
    Another authority to which we will refer is Dom Prosper Guéranger, the Abbot of Solemnes, and the great 19th century authority on the Papacy, whose study, Pontifical Monarchy, helped Pius IX to make the definition of Papal Infallibility. In his Liturgical Year, for the feast of Pope St. Silverius, whose election to the pontificate was doubtful, Dom Guéranger writes,
    "The inevitable play of human passions, interfering in the election of the Vicar of Christ, may perchance for a while render uncertain the transmission of spiritual power. But when it is proved that the Church, still holding, or once more put in possession of, her liberty, acknowledges in the person of a certain Pope, until then doubtful, the true Sovereign Pontiff, this her very recognition is a proof that, from that moment at least, the occupant of the Apostolic See is as such invested by God himself." (Abbot Guéranger, O.S.B., The Liturgical Year, Vol XII, pg. 188)
    Silverius’ pontificate was doubtful because it was forced by the hand of an Arian Emperor. Abbot Guéranger holds that the Roman Clergy would have been free to reject the pope elected as an impostor, since he was thus put in office; but because Silverius was a good and worthy man, and because he was unaware of the violence and evil which brought about his election, they accepted him — and by that acceptance, he was the true Pope.
    Therefore, by this principle and the doctrine of the Perpetuity of the Papacy, John XXIII, Paul VI, John-Paul I, and John-Paul II, have been elected to the Chair of Peter, regardless of their supposed illegitimacy. Because they were accepted by the Visible Church as pontiffs, they became true popes.
    http://www.catholictradition.org/Tradition/indefectibility.htm#2


    Sigh... :facepalm:

    Are you seriously to contend that the "faithful" are the legions of apostate Novus Ordo "Catholics" who have no vocations, don't go to Mass, (their novus Ordo "mass") and believe in every heresy under the sun? Don't think so. You're living in the apostacy. I would argue the true faithful are the Remnant, as foretold in the Bible who will be few at the end of time. In other words the underground Church who most certainly do not accept these Popes in deed while some giving lip service in word.

    And cuм ex Apostolatus Officio certainly is still valid. It is cited in the 1917 code of canon law dealing with the issue of heretics holding office and is based in divine law not ecclesial law and therefore is true in perpetuity.

    I still can't believe that people can look at the Vatican II Protestant Ecuмenical Conciliar Church and believe that it's a DEFENSE of the promises made by Christ to St. Peter and his successors in the office. Boggles the mind. :scratchchin: :confused1:

    Offline Ecclesia Militans

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    Cardinal Siri and the Dissent of Genoa
    « Reply #37 on: April 11, 2012, 04:10:34 PM »
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  • Quote from: SpiritusSanctus
    Quote from: Ecclesia Militans
    And cuм dealt with the election of a heretic


    And that is precisely why it applies to John XXIII, Paul VI, JPII, and Benedict XVI.


    You are changing the subject.


    Offline Ecclesia Militans

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    Cardinal Siri and the Dissent of Genoa
    « Reply #38 on: April 11, 2012, 04:27:04 PM »
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  • Quote from: KofCTrad
    And cuм ex Apostolatus Officio certainly is still valid. It is cited in the 1917 code of canon law dealing with the issue of heretics holding office and is based in divine law not ecclesial law and therefore is true in perpetuity.


    Pope St. Pius X: “None of the Cardinals may be in any way excluded from the active or passive election of the Sovereign Pontiff under pretext or by reason of any excommunication, suspension, interdict or other ecclesiastical impediment” (Vacante Sede Apostolica, 1904).

    Pope Pius XII: “None of the Cardinals may, by pretext or reason of any excommunication, suspension, or interdict whatsoever, or of any other ecclesiastical impediment, be excluded from the active and passive election of the Supreme Pontiff” (Vacantis Apostolicae Sedis, 1945).


    Offline LordPhan

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    Cardinal Siri and the Dissent of Genoa
    « Reply #39 on: April 11, 2012, 05:25:07 PM »
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  • Quote from: KofCTrad
    Quote from: Ecclesia Militans
    III. Valid Elections
    However, the claim is made: "We are still in the period of 'sede vacante'; no valid pope has been elected since Pope Pius XII."
    To this statement a few things can be said. First, a question: Who has the responsibility of saying that the pope’s election was doubtful? The layman in the street? A Bishop? The College of Cardinals? A Council? There is no clear answer to this question. So, just because someone says an election is invalid, this does not make the election invalid. Have there been elections to the papacy since Pope Pius XII? Yes, there have been 4 elections to the Chair of Peter.
    How can we look at these elections? Certain sedevacantists say that they are invalid because the person elected was not a legitimate candidate for the office. For argument’s sake, let us briefly entertain this possibility to show why it in no way would jeopardize the last four pontificates. I defer to the theologian Cardinal Billot, the Doctor St. Alphonsus De Liguori, and the great Benedictine Abbot, Prosper Guéranger. They give the following rule: "The peaceful and universal acceptance of a pope by the whole Church is a sign and effect of a valid election."
    Cardinal Billot (the great Jesuit theologian of the first half of this century) states:
    "Finally, what one may think of the possibility or the impossibility of an heretical pope, there is at least one point absolutely clear which no one can put in doubt, and it is that the acceptance, the adherence, of the Universal Church to a pope will always be, by itself, the infallible sign of the legitimacy of such-and-such a pontiff; and consequently of the existence of all the conditions required for legitimacy." And this is based on the Church’s attribute of Indefectibility as defined by "the promise of the infallible Providence of Christ [that] ‘the gates of hell shall not prevail against it’ and ‘Behold, I am with you all days even unto the end of the world.’ For the adherence of the Church to a false pontiff would be the same thing as its adherence to a false rule of Faith, since the pope is the living rule of the Faith that the Church has to follow, and that in fact, She always follows."
    He continues:
    "God some times can allow that the vacancy of the Apostolic See be for a certain time. He can allow also that a doubt may come concerning the legitimacy of such-and-such an election, but He cannot allow that the whole Church accept as a pontiff one who is not really legitimate. Therefore, from the moment that the pope is accepted by the Church and is united to Her as the head to the body, we can no longer raise the doubt on the possible bias of election or the possible lack of the necessary conditions for legitimacy. Because this adherence of the Church heals in its root all faults committed at the moment of election, and proves infallibly the existence of all the conditions required."
    For example, if a Cardinal would have "bought" the papacy (by simony), and the Church accepts the election, that person would be validly pope. There is strong evidence to suggest that this, in fact, did happen with the election of Pope Alexander VI.
    St. Alphonsus states that:
    "It doesn’t matter that in past centuries some pontiff has been elected in an illegitimate fashion or has taken possession of the pontificate by fraud: it suffices that he has been accepted after as pope by all the Church, for this fact he has become the true pontiff."
    St. Alphonsus follows the principle that if the whole Church, and mainly the clergy of Rome accept this man as pope, the man is the pope.
    Another authority to which we will refer is Dom Prosper Guéranger, the Abbot of Solemnes, and the great 19th century authority on the Papacy, whose study, Pontifical Monarchy, helped Pius IX to make the definition of Papal Infallibility. In his Liturgical Year, for the feast of Pope St. Silverius, whose election to the pontificate was doubtful, Dom Guéranger writes,
    "The inevitable play of human passions, interfering in the election of the Vicar of Christ, may perchance for a while render uncertain the transmission of spiritual power. But when it is proved that the Church, still holding, or once more put in possession of, her liberty, acknowledges in the person of a certain Pope, until then doubtful, the true Sovereign Pontiff, this her very recognition is a proof that, from that moment at least, the occupant of the Apostolic See is as such invested by God himself." (Abbot Guéranger, O.S.B., The Liturgical Year, Vol XII, pg. 188)
    Silverius’ pontificate was doubtful because it was forced by the hand of an Arian Emperor. Abbot Guéranger holds that the Roman Clergy would have been free to reject the pope elected as an impostor, since he was thus put in office; but because Silverius was a good and worthy man, and because he was unaware of the violence and evil which brought about his election, they accepted him — and by that acceptance, he was the true Pope.
    Therefore, by this principle and the doctrine of the Perpetuity of the Papacy, John XXIII, Paul VI, John-Paul I, and John-Paul II, have been elected to the Chair of Peter, regardless of their supposed illegitimacy. Because they were accepted by the Visible Church as pontiffs, they became true popes.
    http://www.catholictradition.org/Tradition/indefectibility.htm#2


    Sigh... :facepalm:

    Are you seriously to contend that the "faithful" are the legions of apostate Novus Ordo "Catholics" who have no vocations, don't go to Mass, (their novus Ordo "mass") and believe in every heresy under the sun? Don't think so. You're living in the apostacy. I would argue the true faithful are the Remnant, as foretold in the Bible who will be few at the end of time. In other words the underground Church who most certainly do not accept these Popes in deed while some giving lip service in word.

    And cuм ex Apostolatus Officio certainly is still valid. It is cited in the 1917 code of canon law dealing with the issue of heretics holding office and is based in divine law not ecclesial law and therefore is true in perpetuity.

    I still can't believe that people can look at the Vatican II Protestant Ecuмenical Conciliar Church and believe that it's a DEFENSE of the promises made by Christ to St. Peter and his successors in the office. Boggles the mind. :scratchchin: :confused1:


    Firstly, nothing is part of the divine law unless it was revealed by Christ or his Apostles, what is part of the divine law cannot be added to. The Law cuм Ex was not a matter of faith or morals, it was added to the Canon Law which until 1917 was not Codified.

    Secondly if the Law cuм ex was cited in the 1917 Code, then cite it. I have the 1917 Code of Canon Law in 2 different commentaries and it does not mention cuм Ex at all. Furthermore it states the same decree that Pope St. Pius X made and was cited by Ecclesia Militans.

    I believe you have recieved faulty information.

    Offline Ecclesia Militans

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    Cardinal Siri and the Dissent of Genoa
    « Reply #40 on: April 11, 2012, 05:33:16 PM »
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  • Quote from: Cupertino
    So...Paul VI was not to be recognized as a true pope because the Holy Ghost allowed him to enter harmful things into the magisterium and liturgy....and we know the Holy Ghost, as a dogma, will not allow that with a true pope.


    You are twisting the meaning of papal infallibility.  This dogma pronounced at Vatican I was not meant to establish or determine whether the man sitting on the throne of Peter is a true pope; rather, it assumes that he is a true pope and that we can determine the dogmatic force of his teachings by the fulfilling of the necessary conditions.


    Offline Ecclesia Militans

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    Cardinal Siri and the Dissent of Genoa
    « Reply #41 on: April 11, 2012, 05:38:58 PM »
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  • Quote from: Cupertino
    Quote from: Ecclesia Militans
    Quote from: Cupertino
    So...Paul VI was not to be recognized as a true pope because the Holy Ghost allowed him to enter harmful things into the magisterium and liturgy....and we know the Holy Ghost, as a dogma, will not allow that with a true pope.


    You are twisting the meaning of papal infallibility.  This dogma pronounced at Vatican I was not meant to establish or determine whether the man sitting on the throne of Peter is a true pope; rather, it assumes that he is a true pope and that we can determine the dogmatic force of his teachings by the fulfilling of the necessary conditions.


    I am not speaking of papal infallibility. I am speaking of the dogma that the Holy Ghost will not allow a true pope to approve of something that will go into the Ordinary & Universal Magisterium (which is pertains to the Church's infallibility). It is impossible. And when it does happen, we know for certain that the man is not a true pope. The Church said so. Argue with the Church.





    Please provide me a reference for this dogma.

    Offline ServusSpiritusSancti

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    Cardinal Siri and the Dissent of Genoa
    « Reply #42 on: April 11, 2012, 05:55:24 PM »
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  • Quote from: Ecclesia Militans
    Quote from: SpiritusSanctus
    Quote from: Ecclesia Militans
    And cuм dealt with the election of a heretic


    And that is precisely why it applies to John XXIII, Paul VI, JPII, and Benedict XVI.


    You are changing the subject.


    No I'm not. It's true that all four are heretics. As for cuм not being canonically forceful, you are making excuses. Everything we post such as that you brush off as not being dogmatic. What position do you hold? FSSP?
    Please ignore ALL of my posts. I was naive during my time posting on this forum and didn’t know any better. I retract and deeply regret any and all uncharitable or erroneous statements I ever made here.

    Offline LordPhan

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    Cardinal Siri and the Dissent of Genoa
    « Reply #43 on: April 11, 2012, 06:48:01 PM »
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  • Quote from: SpiritusSanctus
    Quote from: Ecclesia Militans
    Quote from: SpiritusSanctus
    Quote from: Ecclesia Militans
    And cuм dealt with the election of a heretic


    And that is precisely why it applies to John XXIII, Paul VI, JPII, and Benedict XVI.


    You are changing the subject.


    No I'm not. It's true that all four are heretics. As for cuм not being canonically forceful, you are making excuses. Everything we post such as that you brush off as not being dogmatic. What position do you hold? FSSP?


    Watch your tongue boy. He is SSPX and I can vouch for that. His comment was true, he is aguing with Sirinites and you are changing the subject, bringing up a law that hasn't been in force for a few hundred years. The means of electing a Pope is through Human Law. What is promised to the Pope is that he cannot define anything on pain of not being Catholic to the whole Church. It doesn't mean anything he says must be true.

    As for the past four Popes being Heretics, Materially they are, we agree on that. There has never been a pronouncement or a declaration that they incured the Ipso Facto excommunications, and thus they are not canonically excommunicated even if they are excommunicated in the internal forum.

    I suggest you read the commentary I posted on the Code of Canon Law, read the part about Simony, if someone were to bribe their way into the Papacy it may be valid even though they and whomever they bribed would be ipso facto excommunicated. The excommunication would be internally since he would not declare himself to have incurred it.

    Cupertino makes up 'dogmas' that exist in his own head. He doesn't know what the Universal(Everywhere and Every Time) Ordinary(The normal means) Magisterium(Teaching) is. {As a side note, why does everyone translate the first two words into english and not the last word? Magisterium is Latin for Teaching and Magister is Teacher} which is the Normal means of teaching for all time and everywhere, the infallible arm of which is that which originated and was passed down for all time via Christ and his Apostles and which are brought to us through scripture and tradition.


    Offline Thursday

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    Cardinal Siri and the Dissent of Genoa
    « Reply #44 on: April 11, 2012, 07:15:27 PM »
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  • Quote from: Ecclesia Militans
    Quote from: KofCTrad
    And cuм ex Apostolatus Officio certainly is still valid. It is cited in the 1917 code of canon law dealing with the issue of heretics holding office and is based in divine law not ecclesial law and therefore is true in perpetuity.


    Pope St. Pius X: “None of the Cardinals may be in any way excluded from the active or passive election of the Sovereign Pontiff under pretext or by reason of any excommunication, suspension, interdict or other ecclesiastical impediment” (Vacante Sede Apostolica, 1904).

    Pope Pius XII: “None of the Cardinals may, by pretext or reason of any excommunication, suspension, or interdict whatsoever, or of any other ecclesiastical impediment, be excluded from the active and passive election of the Supreme Pontiff” (Vacantis Apostolicae Sedis, 1945).



    The problem with this seems to be "ecclesiastical impediment" as opposed to divine impediment.

    From Nuvos Ordo Watch
    http://www.novusordowatch.org/the_chair_is_still_empty.htm

    Salza Error #4: The Claim that Sedevacantism ignores the fact that the law of the Church allows even excommunicated cardinals to be elected Pope validly

     Surprisingly enough, John Salza saw fit to repeat an old long-refuted argument against sedevacantism from Pope Pius XII’s constitution Vacantis Apostolicae Sedis, promulgated in 1945, regarding the election of a Pope. Salza quotes the Pope as follows:

     None of the Cardinals may, by pretext or reason of any excommunication, suspension, or interdict whatsoever, or of any other ecclesiastical impediment, be excluded from the active and passive election of the Supreme Pontiff.

     (Pope Pius XII, Apostolic Constitution Vacantis Apostolicae Sedis, 1945; qtd. in Salza, “Errors,” p. 3)

     What may seem at first like a powerful strike against sedevacantism is easily refuted simply by drawing the proper distinctions, which Mr. Salza fails to do. What the Pope is doing here is lifting all ecclesiastical censures, including that of excommunication, which any cardinal may be laboring under at the time of the conclave, for the purposes of allowing him to licitly elect the Pope – and licitly be elected himself. In other words, the Pope is saying that no one may bar from the conclave a cardinal who has any ecclesiastical penalty against him. Note that the emphasis is on the word “ecclesiastical.” The Pope, obviously, can only dispense from ecclesiastical penalties, not from divine ones, for he has no power to reinstate into the Mystical Body of Christ those who have been cut off from it by the divine law. (The same Pius XII alludes to this in his 1951 address to midwives, where he refers to the “natural law, from which . . . not even the Church has the power to dispense” [Pope Pius XII, “Address to Midwives on the Nature of their Profession,” Oct. 29, 1951; http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius12/P12midwives.htm)]. Of course, if the Church has no power to dispense from the natural law, then, all the more so, she does not have the power to dispense from the divine law, either.)

     

    What this means, quite simply, is that heretics, schismatics, and apostates are, of course, banned from a conclave, but not because they are excommunicated by the Church, but because they are not members of the Church to begin with, because of their heresy, schism, or apostasy. Put differently: The heretic is excluded from the valid election of the Pope not under the aspect of being ecclesiastically excommunicated, but under the aspect of being a heretic, i.e., a non-Catholic. Note that Pius XII’s legislation merely speaks of “any . . . ecclesiastical impediment.” However, being a non-Catholic is not per se an ecclesiastical impediment, it is, first and foremost, a divine impediment, and, naturally, not one the Pope has any power to dispense from. If the Pope, hypothetically, had wished to do the impossible and include even heretics as “licit” electors or recipients of an election, he would have said so – he would have written, “None of the Cardinals may, by pretext or reason of any apostasy, heresy, schism, excommunication, suspension, or interdict whatsoever, or of any other ecclesiastical or divine impediment, be excluded from the active and passive election of the Supreme Pontiff.” But of course, such a statement would have been absurd on the face of it, especially considering that, just as a “heretical Pope” is no Pope at all, neither is a “heretical cardinal” even a cardinal.

     

    We recall here, as seen earlier, what Pius XII explicitly taught regarding apostasy, heresy, and schism in Mystici Corporis: “For not every sin, however grave it may be, is such as of its own nature to sever a man from the Body of the Church, as does schism or heresy or apostasy.” These three sins are such as to expel a man from membership in the Church by their very nature (meaning that they are in and of themselves incompatible with being a Roman Catholic) – not because of some ecclesiastical punishment, such as an excommunication. The reason why an apostate, then, is not a Catholic, is not because a bishop or a Pope has excommunicated him, but because the sin of apostasy is in and of itself incompatible with being a Roman Catholic, just as it is in and of itself incompatible for a triangle to have no angles.

     

    Therefore, the fact that Pius XII lifted all excommunications from cardinals for the purposes of holding a licit conclave is irrelevant to the question of sedevacantism. Salza is merely demonstrating his ignorance on this point, failing to realize that Pius XII is speaking of Catholics who are excommunicated, not of non-Catholics. As this may be somewhat confusing for some, let me try to give an example of where this papal legislation would apply. Imagine a wayward cardinal who directly violates the seal of confession. By doing so, he incurs an automatic excommunication from which only the Pope can absolve him (see Canon 2369 §1). Let’s say that before the cardinal can reconcile with the Holy See and have his excommunication lifted, the Pope dies. Now what? Is the cardinal allowed to participate in the conclave, and could he even validly and licitly be elected Pope himself, even though he is under excommunication? Pius XII’s legislation says “yes.” That’s all we’re talking about. It has nothing to do with the ridiculous notion that someone can become Pope who denies the Catholic religion again and again in his words and actions.

     

    For more on the argument from Pope Pius XII’s Apostolic Constitution Vacantis Apostolicae Sedis, please see this article:

    http://www.traditionalmass.org/blog/2007/06/25/can-an-excommunicated-cardinal-be-elected-pope