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Author Topic: Cardinal Siri and the Dissent of Genoa  (Read 10188 times)

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Offline KofCTrad

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Cardinal Siri and the Dissent of Genoa
« Reply #15 on: April 10, 2012, 07:30:11 PM »
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  • Quote from: s2srea
    Quote from: KofCTrad
    I would be willing to bet you that the Third Secret uses the term "anti-pope" will be installed or something to that effect. And that he will call and "evil council". Would not be surprised if that's the gist of the Third Secret and circuмstantial evidence points to this.



    And herein lies the issue I take with the Siri Thesis. It will forever remain just that, a Thesis; and the same with sedevecantism, in  my opinion, but that is another matter.

    There is no denying: only the future will clarify all of this horrible mess we're in; and I, for one, am not willing to bet my faith on something so obscure.


    " only the future will clarify all of this horrible mess we're in"

    I agree. But God did give us minds and reason. We can speculate. I for one like my chances of being correct BUT don't care whether I'm correct or not. If I see a Holy Monarch and Angelic Pope one day I'll be happy.

    "I, for one, am not willing to bet my faith on something so obscure"

    Don't understand this. The Faith is the Faith no matter what thesis is true. None of this changes the deposit of Faith we need to believe to save our souls. I don't think God will judge us on whether we figure out the correct resolution for how we got into this crisis. I just have mine and I'm content with it, for now.



    Offline Thursday

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    Cardinal Siri and the Dissent of Genoa
    « Reply #16 on: April 10, 2012, 07:38:59 PM »
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  • Quote from: Ecclesia Militans
    Cardinal Siri went along with the revolution during many many many years of his life.  Don't make excuses for him.  He ought to have been willing to die for the sake of the truth.


    Point 1. Siri was unknown outside of Italy until long after his death.
    Point 2. There is considerable evidence/testimony that he did damage control and held onto Genoa as the last stand against modernism.
    Point 3. Traditionalists are gaining ground now but there was virtually no resistance to these changes by the vast majority of Catholics for many years. Maybe you forget how popular John Paul II was in the 1980s.
    Point 4. Again, what makes you think the only factor he had to consider was his own personal safety? You can't read one article and come to a conclusion about him.
    Point 5. Lefebvre was never going to become Pope, and to this day the traditionalists groups are nowhere near the levers of power in Rome, on the other hand there are several of Siri's men in positions of power and influence at the Vatican.  

    What did Archbishop Pintinello, the highest ranking clergyman not to sign the Vatican II docuмents, say when asked whether Siri was Pope?

    "He was the best Pope." (!)




    Offline Ecclesia Militans

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    Cardinal Siri and the Dissent of Genoa
    « Reply #17 on: April 10, 2012, 08:38:22 PM »
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  • Quote from: Thursday
    Quote from: Ecclesia Militans
    Cardinal Siri went along with the revolution during many many many years of his life.  Don't make excuses for him.  He ought to have been willing to die for the sake of the truth.


    Point 1. Siri was unknown outside of Italy until long after his death.
    Point 2. There is considerable evidence/testimony that he did damage control and held onto Genoa as the last stand against modernism.
    Point 3. Traditionalists are gaining ground now but there was virtually no resistance to these changes by the vast majority of Catholics for many years. Maybe you forget how popular John Paul II was in the 1980s.
    Point 4. Again, what makes you think the only factor he had to consider was his own personal safety? You can't read one article and come to a conclusion about him.
    Point 5. Lefebvre was never going to become Pope, and to this day the traditionalists groups are nowhere near the levers of power in Rome, on the other hand there are several of Siri's men in positions of power and influence at the Vatican.  

    What did Archbishop Pintinello, the highest ranking clergyman not to sign the Vatican II docuмents, say when asked whether Siri was Pope?

    "He was the best Pope." (!)




    I am not so much concerned about whether he was elected pope or not.  My main concern is that he went along with the VII revolution, whether by consent or silence.

    Offline Thursday

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    Cardinal Siri and the Dissent of Genoa
    « Reply #18 on: April 10, 2012, 09:01:03 PM »
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  • My point is that he didn't really go along with it and that the people who say he did don't know very much about the man's 40 some years as archbishop of Genoa, or his role at the council. In comparison, Ron Paul doesn't start talking about Bush and company blowing up buildings or Obama's fake birth certificate but of course he knows the kind of stuff that is going on.

    Siri's reputation is also largely in the hands of the usurpers so they can twist it to make it look like he wasn't against them. I have some books written in the seventies from commentators in Genoa and their picture of Siri is much different from what mainstream writers are saying about him now.

    Offline ServusSpiritusSancti

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    Cardinal Siri and the Dissent of Genoa
    « Reply #19 on: April 10, 2012, 09:34:31 PM »
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  • KofCTrad, thanks for posting that, but I already knew Our Lady of Fatima warned us of Vatican II in the Third Secret. I was saying the word "antipope" is not believed to have been used specifically in the Secret, though it doesn't matter anyway. Just because She never said there would be an antipope doesn't mean there wasn't one!

    Quote from: Thursday
    My point is that he didn't really go along with it and that the people who say he did don't know very much about the man's 40 some years as archbishop of Genoa, or his role at the council.


    The problems still exist. The issue with the Siri thesis isn't really whether or not he was elected, which I concede was quite possible. The main issue is that you would have to be really weak to be elected, only to allow infiltrators to force you out of the picture, keep quiet about it, submit to others who were likely elected invalidly, and accept their new changes. If I were in that situation, I would either have said "No, I'm not doing it" and let them kill me, or wait for the right time, come out and tell the truth, and if I got killed for it so be it. What good is it to keep your life if you have to compromise your faith and risk going to hell? I'm not saying Siri is in hell, nor am I saying he was a bad person. I'm aware that he didn't agree with the changes, but he still went along with them all in the name of not having the courage to stand up to the infiltrators.

    Celebrating the Novus Ordo Missae publicly is a prime example. Sure, he didn't like it, but he still celebrated it. It would be like me becoming a priest, being threatened if I didn't accept the NO, and then celebrating it. I could say "Oh, but I don't agree with it" all I want, but it wouldn't change the fact that I caved in to begin with! Compare that to what Archbishop LeFebvre did. They bribed him left and right, saying they would forgive him if he celebrated the NO just once, or if he used the New Rite of Consecration. He refused. He endured horrible persecution for it, but all that matters is that he didn't compromise his faith.

    If Siri were elected, would accepting the changes have been enough to invalidate his Papacy? Probably not, as hard of a question as that is to answer. But that really isn't the issue. The point is the thesis just has too many problems to be deemed as acceptable.
    Please ignore ALL of my posts. I was naive during my time posting on this forum and didn’t know any better. I retract and deeply regret any and all uncharitable or erroneous statements I ever made here.


    Offline Thursday

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    Cardinal Siri and the Dissent of Genoa
    « Reply #20 on: April 10, 2012, 10:04:44 PM »
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  • Quote from: SpiritusSanctus

    Quote from: Thursday
    My point is that he didn't really go along with it and that the people who say he did don't know very much about the man's 40 some years as archbishop of Genoa, or his role at the council.


    The problems still exist. The issue with the Siri thesis isn't really whether or not he was elected, which I concede was quite possible.


    That is the the thesis, the other issues can only be addressed after we conclude that he was elected and accepted the papacy. Once this is established the papacies of John XXIII Paul VI and JP are null and void.

    Quote from: SpiritusSanctus
    The main issue is that you would have to be really weak to be elected, only to allow infiltrators to force you out of the picture, keep quiet about it, submit to others who were likely elected invalidly, and accept their new changes.


    This is a valid question but we don't know what the threats were or what choices were open to him. Also, the usurpers had been planning this in great detail for a long long time, it's easy to say what could have been done in hindsight but he probably didn't know what was going on. Plus how many of the the other prelates who he thought were his friends were actually working for the other side and trying to deceive him.

    Quote from: SpiritusSanctus
    If I were in that situation, I would either have said "No, I'm not doing it" and let them kill me, or wait for the right time, come out and tell the truth, and if I got killed for it so be it. What good is it to keep your life if you have to compromise your faith and risk going to hell?


    Again we don't know what the threats were or what choices he had.

     
    Quote from: SpiritusSanctus
    I'm not saying Siri is in hell, nor am I saying he was a bad person. I'm aware that he didn't agree with the changes, but he still went along with them all in the name of not having the courage to stand up to the infiltrators.


    Franco Bellegrandi quoted a high ranking mason who he met before the Conclave, who said "the Church is in our hands." Life isn't always like hollywood movies with the hero defying all odds to overcome the forces of darkness, its very possible that he encountered an impossible situation.

    Offline KofCTrad

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    Cardinal Siri and the Dissent of Genoa
    « Reply #21 on: April 10, 2012, 10:50:00 PM »
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  • Why was the government so paranoid about Jim Garrison's investigation that the FBI was bugging his office. Mr. X in that movie is based on a true person. He was the only man to successfully bring about a trial for the murder of the President. Why so paranoid about looking for the truth?

    Why are no mainstream government officials lending support to the sherrif's investigation of all of Obama's fake docuмents? Why do so few people care or are willing to pursue the case?

    Why doesn't Arlen Specter, who has already had life threatening cancer, come clean about the Warren Commision and single bullet theory?

    Why are only "consiracy theorists" talking about the truth of 9/11?

    Why are there no official government leaders who are willing to point to the Federal Reserve, accept Ron Paul, as the source of inflation, booms and busts and a private, for profit central bank?

    How did they appear to make it look like Cardinal Siri accepted Vatican II?

    I don't know the answer to these questions and don't pretend to but you should not either?

    Here's some things to chew on:
     

     

    Offline KofCTrad

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    Cardinal Siri and the Dissent of Genoa
    « Reply #22 on: April 10, 2012, 11:12:20 PM »
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  • Quote from: KofCTrad
    Why was the government so paranoid about Jim Garrison's investigation that the FBI was bugging his office. Mr. X in that movie is based on a true person. He was the only man to successfully bring about a trial for the murder of the President. Why so paranoid about looking for the truth?

    Why are no mainstream government officials lending support to the sherrif's investigation of all of Obama's fake docuмents? Why do so few people care or are willing to pursue the case?

    Why doesn't Arlen Specter, who has already had life threatening cancer, come clean about the Warren Commision and single bullet theory?

    Why are only "consiracy theorists" talking about the truth of 9/11?

    Why are there no official government leaders who are willing to point to the Federal Reserve, accept Ron Paul, as the source of inflation, booms and busts and a private, for profit central bank?

    How did they appear to make it look like Cardinal Siri accepted Vatican II?

    I don't know the answer to these questions and don't pretend to but you should not either?

    Here's some things to chew on:
     

     




    That's what they do to people who defy them. The Tsar had his whole family killed.


    Offline Elizabeth

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    Cardinal Siri and the Dissent of Genoa
    « Reply #23 on: April 10, 2012, 11:46:24 PM »
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  • Very interesting, Thurs. !   :cheers:

    I'd love to hear more.  It is very heartening to hear there are some of Card. Siri's men around.


    Offline Elizabeth

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    Cardinal Siri and the Dissent of Genoa
    « Reply #24 on: April 10, 2012, 11:56:45 PM »
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  • Quote from: KofCTrad


    A Pope Under the Control of Satan?
         





     Who knows?  But I never tire of reminding people that 300 exorcists were told they may not visit St. Peter's after already having made arrangements. (2005, I think.)  Gabriel Amorth said so in an interview in 30 Daysif I recall the source correctly.

    I think it was just a visit to the regular Wednesday Audience outside in the plaza..

    Then remember old Abp. Milingo, the exorcist who gave talks warning about satanists in the Vatican, and look what happened to him  :shocked:...(for KofCTrad)  I have my suspicions about how he got so messed up.


    Offline Thursday

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    Cardinal Siri and the Dissent of Genoa
    « Reply #25 on: April 11, 2012, 12:43:18 AM »
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  • Quote from: Elizabeth
    Very interesting, Thurs. !   :cheers:

    I'd love to hear more.  It is very heartening to hear there are some of Card. Siri's men around.



    From a book on the state of the Church of Genoa and Italy from 1976. Author is neither for against Siri. Translated from Italian.

    "… But the serious question for him (Siri) was the fact that every day the local and national press spoke of the protest of the Church in Genoa. From Rome they were content to established that not only the diocese but also more openly rigidly anti-conciliar were affected by the dispute. Not wanting to use more methods of discipline they leave  Cardinal Siri be that no bishop could more legitimately, second to the texts of the council. Cardinal Siri was so good at the game against Rome they did not want to push the bishop into schism by preventing anti-conciliar gestures. Whoever would bother to ask the Bishops' Conference news on the matter were told to be patient because Cardinal Siri of Genoa would soon be gone. How many times was it announced that the pope had asked Cardinal Siri of Genoa to leave! But Cardinal Siri after the ouster from the presidency of the bishops' conference did not want to lose the last place with which he had left to lead the battle against the church council. He still had friends in Rome, was linked to many bishops who did not approve of the line of the secretariat of the Conference of Bishops. From all over the world came to him consent to his pastoral letters. He always felt at the center of the anti-concliar, worldwide restoration movement, a kind of anti-pope in pectore."


    Offline Thursday

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    Offline Ecclesia Militans

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    Cardinal Siri and the Dissent of Genoa
    « Reply #27 on: April 11, 2012, 06:46:35 AM »
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  • Quote from: Thursday
    My point is that he didn't really go along with it


    This statement shows me that it is futile to continue this conversation.

    Offline Ecclesia Militans

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    Cardinal Siri and the Dissent of Genoa
    « Reply #28 on: April 11, 2012, 07:03:52 AM »
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  • III. Valid Elections
    However, the claim is made: "We are still in the period of 'sede vacante'; no valid pope has been elected since Pope Pius XII."
    To this statement a few things can be said. First, a question: Who has the responsibility of saying that the pope’s election was doubtful? The layman in the street? A Bishop? The College of Cardinals? A Council? There is no clear answer to this question. So, just because someone says an election is invalid, this does not make the election invalid. Have there been elections to the papacy since Pope Pius XII? Yes, there have been 4 elections to the Chair of Peter.
    How can we look at these elections? Certain sedevacantists say that they are invalid because the person elected was not a legitimate candidate for the office. For argument’s sake, let us briefly entertain this possibility to show why it in no way would jeopardize the last four pontificates. I defer to the theologian Cardinal Billot, the Doctor St. Alphonsus De Liguori, and the great Benedictine Abbot, Prosper Guéranger. They give the following rule: "The peaceful and universal acceptance of a pope by the whole Church is a sign and effect of a valid election."
    Cardinal Billot (the great Jesuit theologian of the first half of this century) states:
    "Finally, what one may think of the possibility or the impossibility of an heretical pope, there is at least one point absolutely clear which no one can put in doubt, and it is that the acceptance, the adherence, of the Universal Church to a pope will always be, by itself, the infallible sign of the legitimacy of such-and-such a pontiff; and consequently of the existence of all the conditions required for legitimacy." And this is based on the Church’s attribute of Indefectibility as defined by "the promise of the infallible Providence of Christ [that] ‘the gates of hell shall not prevail against it’ and ‘Behold, I am with you all days even unto the end of the world.’ For the adherence of the Church to a false pontiff would be the same thing as its adherence to a false rule of Faith, since the pope is the living rule of the Faith that the Church has to follow, and that in fact, She always follows."
    He continues:
    "God some times can allow that the vacancy of the Apostolic See be for a certain time. He can allow also that a doubt may come concerning the legitimacy of such-and-such an election, but He cannot allow that the whole Church accept as a pontiff one who is not really legitimate. Therefore, from the moment that the pope is accepted by the Church and is united to Her as the head to the body, we can no longer raise the doubt on the possible bias of election or the possible lack of the necessary conditions for legitimacy. Because this adherence of the Church heals in its root all faults committed at the moment of election, and proves infallibly the existence of all the conditions required."
    For example, if a Cardinal would have "bought" the papacy (by simony), and the Church accepts the election, that person would be validly pope. There is strong evidence to suggest that this, in fact, did happen with the election of Pope Alexander VI.
    St. Alphonsus states that:
    "It doesn’t matter that in past centuries some pontiff has been elected in an illegitimate fashion or has taken possession of the pontificate by fraud: it suffices that he has been accepted after as pope by all the Church, for this fact he has become the true pontiff."
    St. Alphonsus follows the principle that if the whole Church, and mainly the clergy of Rome accept this man as pope, the man is the pope.
    Another authority to which we will refer is Dom Prosper Guéranger, the Abbot of Solemnes, and the great 19th century authority on the Papacy, whose study, Pontifical Monarchy, helped Pius IX to make the definition of Papal Infallibility. In his Liturgical Year, for the feast of Pope St. Silverius, whose election to the pontificate was doubtful, Dom Guéranger writes,
    "The inevitable play of human passions, interfering in the election of the Vicar of Christ, may perchance for a while render uncertain the transmission of spiritual power. But when it is proved that the Church, still holding, or once more put in possession of, her liberty, acknowledges in the person of a certain Pope, until then doubtful, the true Sovereign Pontiff, this her very recognition is a proof that, from that moment at least, the occupant of the Apostolic See is as such invested by God himself." (Abbot Guéranger, O.S.B., The Liturgical Year, Vol XII, pg. 188)
    Silverius’ pontificate was doubtful because it was forced by the hand of an Arian Emperor. Abbot Guéranger holds that the Roman Clergy would have been free to reject the pope elected as an impostor, since he was thus put in office; but because Silverius was a good and worthy man, and because he was unaware of the violence and evil which brought about his election, they accepted him — and by that acceptance, he was the true Pope.
    Therefore, by this principle and the doctrine of the Perpetuity of the Papacy, John XXIII, Paul VI, John-Paul I, and John-Paul II, have been elected to the Chair of Peter, regardless of their supposed illegitimacy. Because they were accepted by the Visible Church as pontiffs, they became true popes.
    http://www.catholictradition.org/Tradition/indefectibility.htm#2

    Offline Thursday

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    Cardinal Siri and the Dissent of Genoa
    « Reply #29 on: April 11, 2012, 08:31:01 AM »
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  • Aha, so you think the last 5 popes are legit but condemn Siri because he "went along with their changes."