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Author Topic: Cardinal Burke and Bishop Athanasius call for a 40 day PrayerFastingCrusade.  (Read 5227 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Cardinal Burke and Bishop Athanasius call for a 40 day PrayerFastingCrusade.
« Reply #45 on: September 14, 2019, 09:06:13 AM »
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  • Because "we" aren't necessarily the ones that Burke and Schneider are trying to reach.

    And maybe they actually have a view that prayer and fasting are worth a try. Sedevacantists don't understand this.

    But I thought the whole reason that you support the Resistance vs. the SSPX is because you recognize the problem of trying to do good while entrenched within the Conciliar paradigm.  So, based on that, one would think you'd understand the futility of these two NO bishops.  It's precisely thinking like this that has led to the SSPX compromises.

    Offline Mark 79

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    Re: Cardinal Burke and Bishop Athanasius call for a 40 day PrayerFastingCrusade.
    « Reply #46 on: September 14, 2019, 09:30:44 AM »
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  • I don't have to accept the sede view that everyone in the conciliar church is a heretic.
    Recall that Burke himself "consecrated" a tranny as a N.O. "nun." You find no heresy underlying such heteropraxis?  You join him in worship when he rejects Catholic teaching against mutilation of our bodies, our temples of the Holy Ghost.
    Apparently too, you find no hypocrisy or irrationality in your criticism of sedes while stating you are "not interested" in papal teachings.
    Perhaps you are also "not interested" in 1 Corinthians 14:34.


    Offline Meg

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    Re: Cardinal Burke and Bishop Athanasius call for a 40 day PrayerFastingCrusade.
    « Reply #47 on: September 14, 2019, 09:34:03 AM »
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  • Recall that Burke himself "consecrated" a tranny as a N.O. "nun." You find no heresy underlying such heteropraxis?  You join him in worship when he rejects Catholic teaching against mutilation of our bodies, our temples of the Holy Ghost.
    Apparently too, you find no hypocrisy or irrationality in your criticism of sedes while stating you are "not interested" in papal teachings.
    Perhaps you are also "not interested" in 1 Corinthians 14:34.

    Cardinal Burke's support of that tranny is old news. We all knew about that a long time ago. Is it only just recently news to you?

    You can give out as much support for you sede views as you like here, but I am not obligated to accept them.
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: Cardinal Burke and Bishop Athanasius call for a 40 day PrayerFastingCrusade.
    « Reply #48 on: September 14, 2019, 09:40:46 AM »
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  • But I thought the whole reason that you support the Resistance vs. the SSPX is because you recognize the problem of trying to do good while entrenched within the Conciliar paradigm.  So, based on that, one would think you'd understand the futility of these two NO bishops.  It's precisely thinking like this that has led to the SSPX compromises.
    Do you agree with Matthews ring analogy?  And if so, how is this type of reasoning consistent with it?

    Offline Mark 79

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    Re: Cardinal Burke and Bishop Athanasius call for a 40 day PrayerFastingCrusade.
    « Reply #49 on: September 14, 2019, 09:43:27 AM »
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  • Cardinal Burke's support of that tranny is old news. We all knew about that a long time ago. Is it only just recently news to you?

    You can give out as much support for you sede views as you like here, but I am not obligated to accept them.
    Do you imagine there is an expiration date on heresy?

    Besides, Burke has never repented publicly about the "old news," so it remains relevant when one joins with him in worship.

    Attempting to change the subject to sedevacantism, does nothing to bolster your irrational and hypocritical rejection of papal teaching.



    Offline Meg

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    Re: Cardinal Burke and Bishop Athanasius call for a 40 day PrayerFastingCrusade.
    « Reply #50 on: September 14, 2019, 09:46:45 AM »
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  • Do you imagine there is an expiration date on heresy?

    Besides, Burke has never repented publicly about the "old news," so it remains relevant when one joins with him in worship.

    Attempting to change the subject to sedevacantism, does nothing to bolster your irrational and hypocritical case.

    I'm not going to accept that everyone in the conciliar church is a heretic. I'm not going to get caught up in ridiculous sedevacantist arguments. But keep trying, if you like.
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Mark 79

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    Re: Cardinal Burke and Bishop Athanasius call for a 40 day PrayerFastingCrusade.
    « Reply #51 on: September 14, 2019, 09:51:10 AM »
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  • I'm not going to accept that everyone in the conciliar church is a heretic. I'm not going to get caught up in ridiculous sedevacantist arguments. But keep trying, if you like.

    Your "everyone in the conciliar church" straw man betrays more of your irrationality and dishonesty.

    The "old news" about Burke betrays his heresy, not the heresy of "everyone in the conciliar church."  There is NO Catholic morals or dogma that allows transɛҳuąƖ mutilation, much less consecrating a biological male as a "nun."  You join with him in worship.

    Keep squirming.

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Cardinal Burke and Bishop Athanasius call for a 40 day PrayerFastingCrusade.
    « Reply #52 on: September 14, 2019, 09:52:42 AM »
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  • Your "everyone in the conciliar church" straw man betrays more of your irrationality and dishonesty.

    The "old news" about Burke betrays his heresy.  There is NO Catholic morals or dogma that allows transɛҳuąƖ mutilation, much less consecrating a biological male as a "nun."  You join with him in worship.

    Keep squirming.

    I can assure you that there is no squirming being done from my side of the computer screen.
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29


    Offline Mark 79

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    Re: Cardinal Burke and Bishop Athanasius call for a 40 day PrayerFastingCrusade.
    « Reply #53 on: September 14, 2019, 10:01:58 AM »
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  • I can assure you that there is no squirming being done from my side of the computer screen.
    So far you have invoked:

    • charity
    • liberals
    • silence
    • not interested in papal teaching
    • conflation of worship and discussion
    • sede vacantism
    • expiration date on heresy
    • straw man "everyone in the conciliar church"
    • straw man "no faith left in the N.O." (even attempted to made Bp. Williamson your accomplice in that one)

    Not squirming, eh?

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Cardinal Burke and Bishop Athanasius call for a 40 day PrayerFastingCrusade.
    « Reply #54 on: September 14, 2019, 10:03:15 AM »
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  • So far you have invoked:
    charity
    liberals
    silence
    not interested in papal teaching
    conflation of worship and discussion
    sede vacantism
    expiration date on heresy
    straw man "everyone in the conciliar church"
    straw man "no faith left in the N.O. (even attempted to made Bp. Williamson your accomplice)
    Not squirming, eh?

    :laugh2:

    You take yourself much too seriously, Mark 79. Hasn't anyone ever told you that before? 
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Cardinal Burke and Bishop Athanasius call for a 40 day PrayerFastingCrusade.
    « Reply #55 on: September 14, 2019, 10:10:42 AM »
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  • To reiterate:

    I don't think it's a bad thing that Cardinal Burke and Bp. Schneider have called for prayer and fasting for that terrible Amazon synod. Are these two men perfect or unaffected by Modernism? No, not at all. That doesn't mean that they cannot at least see some of the problems with the docuмents of that synod, even though their understanding will likely be flawed in at least some respects. Their appeal for prayer and fasting might wake up a few well-intentioned sleeping Catholics in the conciliar church, who I don't believe are all beyond hope.

    Sedevacantists tend to think that the conciliar church and its adherents are beyond all hope. That's not a Catholic position to take, IMO.
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29


    Offline Nishant Xavier

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    Re: Cardinal Burke and Bishop Athanasius call for a 40 day PrayerFastingCrusade.
    « Reply #56 on: September 14, 2019, 11:19:34 AM »
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  • To reiterate:

    I don't think it's a bad thing that Cardinal Burke and Bp. Schneider have called for prayer and fasting for that terrible Amazon synod. Are these two men perfect or unaffected by Modernism? No, not at all. That doesn't mean that they cannot at least see some of the problems with the docuмents of that synod, even though their understanding will likely be flawed in at least some respects. Their appeal for prayer and fasting might wake up a few well-intentioned sleeping Catholics in the conciliar church, who I don't believe are all beyond hope.

    Sedevacantists tend to think that the conciliar church and its adherents are beyond all hope. That's not a Catholic position to take, IMO.
    Yes, that's right. It is de fide Vatican I Dogma that "In His Church, there will be Shepherds and Teachers (Bishops with Power to Rule and Teach - with Ordinary Jurisdiction and Teaching Office) until the end of time. If there are no such Bishops today, then Vatican I is a lie. But that is heretical. Therefore, there most certainly are such Bishops today, and His Eminence +Burke, and His Excellency +Athanasius are among them. That doesn't mean they are perfect, but they are certainly Catholic.

    It is entirely heretical and utterly faithless to say otherwise, to say that the Catholic Hierarchy completely defected into heresy. If anyone wants to keep saying it, he or she can take it up with Jesus Christ Himself at the Judgment. Jesus Christ is Truth and promised it would never happen. You either believe Him or you don't.

    Sept 17th to Oct 26 are the 40 days for prayer and fasting. Let us Traditional Catholics who are participating in the great Crusade called for by these two good Catholic Bishops of the indefectible Catholic Hierarchy resolve to go beyond the bare minimum of "once a week fasting" and "one decade of the Rosary" - let us try to meet better Traditional Catholic standards, like fasting 2 to 3 days a week at least, for those 40 days, and praying 15 decades of the Rosary every day, as also His Excellency Bishop Williamson has been urging.

    Quote from: Ladislaus
    I have to disagree.  I believe that men like +Schneider and +Burke are VERY DANGEROUS to Tradition.  In calling out the most egregious of the V2 era heresies ...
    Hi Ladislaus. I understand this perspective, but have to disagree with it. If we look back to the precedent Archbishop Lefebvre set, we see His Grace was always ready to work together with good Cardinals like His Eminence Cardinal Silvio +Oddi, not to mention His Eminence Cardinal Alfredo +Ottaviani and His Eminence Giuseppe +Siri before that. Cardinal Oddi said "Thank you, Monsignor" over Archbishop Lefebvre's tomb. Archbishop Lefebvre was always a man of the Church, recognizing the necessity of a Catholic Episcopate. 

    Therefore, imho His Excellency Bishop Fellay and the Society of Saint Pius X is absolutely justified in following its Saintly Founder's lead.

    But beyond that, Ladislaus, both Bishop Athanasius and Cardinal Burke are more traditional on doctrine than some sede Bishops, as you yourself have said before - since sede Bishops teach people can be saved without faith in Jesus Christ, whereas these Bishops taught, 

    "After the institution of the New and Everlasting Covenant in Jesus Christ, no one may be saved by obedience to the law of Moses alone without faith in Christ as true God and the only Savior of humankind (see Rom 3:28; Gal 2:16). 5. Muslims and others who lack faith in Jesus Christ, God and man, even monotheists, cannot give to God the same adoration as Christians do, that is to say, supernatural worship in Spirit and in Truth (see Jn 4:24; Eph 2:8) of those who have received the Spirit of filial adoption (see Rom 8:15) ...

    7. True ecuмenism intends that non-Catholics should enter that unity which the Catholic Church already indestructibly possesses in virtue of the prayer of Christ, always heard by His Father, “that they may be one” (John 17:11), and which she professes in the Symbol of Faith, “I believe in one Church.”

    See: https://onepeterfive.com/newly-released-declaration-of-truths-reads-like-a-neo-syllabus-of-errors/ 
    And: https://onepeterfive.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/Declaration_Truths_Errors_final_version_clean.pdf

    His Excellency Bishop Fellay, contrary to what is often alleged here by many, has been carrying on the good fight in Rome on these issues, and on many others, in His 31 excellent years of commendable, faithful and Saintly service as a Traditional Catholic Bishop.

    "And it even condemns trying to convert them, which it calls “Uniatism”. Once again, the Holy See’s response was to say: “That is not from the Magisterium.” And quite recently you have a docuмent published by Cardinal Koch on relations with the Jews ... December 10, 2015). It is a terrible docuмent, completely heretical, which claims that the Jews can be saved without coming through Our Lord (par. 36). Exactly the opposite of what Sacred Scripture teaches us, along with the first pope himself, Saint Peter, who says this to the Jews: “There is no other name under heaven given to men [except Jesus], whereby we must be saved” (Acts 4:12)." http://sspx.org/en/can-pastoral-council-be-debatable

    See also: https://damselofthefaith.wordpress.com/2016/11/26/an-example-of-bishop-fellays-saintliness/ Those who are saying Bishop Fellay has ceased to be a Heroic Traditional Catholic Shepherd whom Traditional Catholics the world over happily unite behind and under have themselves ceased to see things correctly. The SSPX doesn't want to "run and hide", but rather it's going to "stay and fight".

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Cardinal Burke and Bishop Athanasius call for a 40 day PrayerFastingCrusade.
    « Reply #57 on: September 14, 2019, 11:51:36 AM »
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  • Yes, that's right. It is de fide Vatican I Dogma that "In His Church, there will be Shepherds and Teachers (Bishops with Power to Rule and Teach - with Ordinary Jurisdiction and Teaching Office) until the end of time. If there are no such Bishops today, then Vatican I is a lie. But that is heretical. Therefore, there most certainly are such Bishops today, and His Eminence +Burke, and His Excellency +Athanasius are among them. That doesn't mean they are perfect, but they are certainly Catholic.

    It is entirely heretical and utterly faithless to say otherwise, to say that the Catholic Hierarchy completely defected into heresy. If anyone wants to keep saying it, he or she can take it up with Jesus Christ Himself at the Judgment. Jesus Christ is Truth and promised it would never happen. You either believe Him or you don't.

    Please understand that I am not arguing for the "Bishops with Power to Rule and Teach." I am merely supporting the idea of prayer and fasting called for by two men in the conciliar church, due the seriousness of the Amazon synod.

    The synod should rightly be opposed. It's unfortunate that the SSPX has not, as far as I know, in any way opposed the Amazon synod, but I'm quite sure that if +ABL were alive, he would do so. The SSPX is now a wimpy version of its former self.
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Matto

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    Re: Cardinal Burke and Bishop Athanasius call for a 40 day PrayerFastingCrusade.
    « Reply #58 on: September 14, 2019, 12:34:16 PM »
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  • I will be joining with the fasting and prayer. I am not sure how strict I will be yet. But I always think it is good to fast more than the bare minimums so I am happy to see a call to more fasting from Bishops. 
    R.I.P.
    Please pray for the repose of my soul.

    Offline Mark 79

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    Re: Cardinal Burke and Bishop Athanasius call for a 40 day PrayerFastingCrusade.
    « Reply #59 on: September 14, 2019, 02:53:35 PM »
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  • Sedevacantists tend to think that the conciliar church and its adherents are beyond all hope. That's not a Catholic position to take, IMO.
    Rubbish. There you go again with your non-existent charism of reading hearts, minds, and souls to create yet another straw man.

    Quote any sedevacantist who has said, "the conciliar church and its adherents are beyond all hope."

    Precisely because we do have hope, every sedevacantist I know prays for the conciliar sect, just not with the conciliar sect.

    Your thinking is sloppy, if indeed you think at all.