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Author Topic: Cantate Domino  (Read 3569 times)

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Offline Lover of Truth

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Cantate Domino
« on: June 04, 2014, 01:57:28 PM »
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  • From Fenton:

      The seventeenth in the series of Oecuмenical Councils was that of Florence. It was a gathering called to end some longstanding separations of Oriental dissident groups from the true Church. One of its acts was the famed decree for the Jacobites, included in the dogmatic Bull Cantate Domino, issued by Pope Eugenius IV on February 4, 1442. The following paragraph is found in this decree.

            It [the sacrosanct Roman Church, established by the voice of Our Lord and Savior] firmly believes, professes, and teaches that none of those who do not exist within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but Jєωs, heretics, and schismatics, can become partakers of eternal life; but that they are going into the everlasting fire which is prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they become associated with it (nisi . . . eidem fuerint agregati) before they die. And [it firmly believes, professes, and teaches] that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is of such value that the Church's sacraments are profitable unto salvation, and that fastings, almsgivings, and the other duties of piety and exercises of the Christian militancy, bring forth eternal rewards only for those who remain within it [the unity of the ecclesiastical body]: and that, however great his almsgiving may be, and even though he might shed his blood for the name of Christ, no one can be saved unless he remains within the embrace and the unity of the Catholic Church. [Denz., 714.]

        Actually this declaration of the Cantate Domino simply makes more explicit the lessons brought out in the Fourth Lateran Council and in the Bull Unam Sanctam. First of all, it mentions and classifies those who are outside of the true Church. These include the pagans, who do not accept any part of divine public revelation; the Jєωs, who accept the Old Testament as God's message; the heretics, who accept certain parts of the teaching contained in the New Testament; and finally the schismatics, who have not rejected any portion of the divinely revealed message, but who simply have cut themselves off from communion with the true Church. It insists that none of these people can attain to eternal life unless they enter the true Church before they pass from this world. In issuing this teaching, the Cantate Domino simply repeated, with a little more explicitness about the individuals who are "outside" the Church, what previous docuмents had already taught about the necessity of the Catholic Church for the attainment of eternal salvation.

        This is plain in both the first and the second parts of the teaching on this subject set forth in the Cantate Domino. The first part asserts that the various classes of individuals "outside" the Catholic Church not only cannot become partakers of eternal life, but also that "they are going into the everlasting fire which is prepared for the devil and his angels" unless they become united to the Church before they pass from this world. In this assertion, which, incidentally, has been designated as "rigorous" by opponents of the Church and by some badly instructed Catholics. Pope Eugenius IV merely took cognizance of the reality of Our Lord's work of redemption.

        Now, the alternative to being saved is being lost. The person who is saved is, in the ultimate and perfect sense, the one who finally attains to the Beatific Vision through the salvific power of Our Lord's sacrificial death. The person who is not saved is inevitably one who is debarred for all eternity from the possession of the Beatific Vision, in which alone the ultimate and eternal end of man is to be found. The individual who attains the one and only ultimate end available to man will have been a shining success for all eternity, whatever sufferings and humiliations he may have been called upon to undergo during the period of his preparation and trial in this world. On the other hand, the person who does not attain to that end will have been a failure for all eternity, despite any success and pleasure he may have had during the course of his earthly life.

        Furthermore, no one is excluded from the everlasting possession of the Beatific Vision except for reasons of sin. In the case of an infant who has died without receiving the sacrament of baptism, that sin is not personal, but is original sin, the aversion from God which is consequent upon the offense committed by Adam himself. Obviously, according to the teaching of the Catholic Church, an infant who dies in that state will not be punished by the all-just and all-merciful God for some sin which he did not personally commit. But, for such an infant, the Beatific Vision is a good to which the infant is not entitled and which he will not receive.

        The adult who dies in the state of mortal sin, whether his original sin has been remitted in the sacrament of baptism or not, will not only be excluded from the possession of the Beatific Vision, but will also be punished for his unrepented offenses against God. And, since there is no forgiveness of sin apart from the Catholic Church, the Mystical body of Jesus Christ, there is no salvation for the individual who passes from this life "outside" the Catholic Church. The person who dies with unremitted mortal sins against God will not only be excluded from the Beatific Vision (thus suffering the penalty of loss), but will also receive the punishment due to the sin for which he has not repented (the penalty of sense).

        Our Lord is our Divine Savior precisely because, through His sacrificial death on Calvary, He has earned for us the salvation from our sins, both original and actual. Now, the salvation which He merited for us was precisely a rescue from our sins and from the effects consequent upon them. Those effects are principally the loss of God's friendship; subjection to Satan, the prince of this world; the eternal loss of the Beatific Vision; and the punishments of hell. Our Lord did not suffer the tortures and the ignominy of the most horrible of deaths to win any unimportant favor for us.

        The key truth in all of this portion of sacred theology is the fact that the Catholic Church is actually the Mystical Body of Jesus Christ. In order to be saved from the condition in which we place ourselves by our own mortal sins, we must be in salvific contact with our Divine Redeemer. And the one and only social unit within which this salvific contact can be made is the institution which St. Paul designated as the body of Christ, the society we know as the Catholic Church.

        The people who do not come into salvific contact with Our Lord do not avail themselves of the salvation which is in Him alone. As a result they are not saved, and they remain in the condition in which they have come into the world, or in the condition in which they have placed themselves through their own personal and mortal sins. If they die in this condition, they inevitably receive the effects which follow upon their condition. They are excluded from the Beatific Vision and, if they pass from this life guilty of mortal sin for which they have not been repentant, they suffer the pain of hell forever.

        This is the section of Catholic doctrine which is most sharply opposed to the spirit of the times in which we live. The enunciation of this truth seems always to be designated as "rigorous" or as something worse by those who are animated by the spirit of the world, whether they are openly enemies of the Church or not.

        Yet, if we examine the mentality of this sort of opposition, we find that it is directed ultimately, not against the teachings about the competence and the necessity of the Catholic Church, but actually against the redemptive work of Jesus Christ Our Lord. What is obviously back of objection to this portion of Catholic teaching is the conviction, or at least the claim, that eternal happiness is in some way the native right of all human beings without exception, or at least something within the field of competence of these same human beings.

        A man who feels in this way is inevitably inclined to look upon the effects of Our Lord's redemptive sacrifice as in reality either non-existent or quite unimportant. If the best man can obtain is something to which he is entitled by the very fact of being a man, or something which he is competent to obtain through the exercise of his own natural powers, then of course it is hardly more than a mere verbalism to speak of a redemption. And if God is going to give everlasting life to any man, without regard for any contact with Our Lord, then the most Our Lord could have done has been to obtain some extra and accidental advantages in the supernatural order for those who come and stay in contact with Him.

        Such, however, has not been the case, and any system of thought which bases itself on such false assumptions is completely and fatally unrealistic. As a matter of fact, all mankind, all the progeny of Adam, absolutely needed the forgiveness of sin and the liberation which actually came only through the redemptive sacrifice of Jesus Christ Our Lord. If man's sins had remained unforgiven by God, then man would have been justly and necessarily shut away from the Beatific Vision forever. If man's personal mortal sins had not been forgiven, man would have been justly and necessarily subject to everlasting punishment for those sins.

        In reality the only motive force for the forgiveness of man's sins is to be found in the redemption by Jesus Christ. And the only possible way for a man to have his own sins remitted is to come into contact with Our Lord and with His salvific power in the one and only social unit which has been divinely constituted as His Mystical body. This means being within His Church as a member or at least by a sincere, even though perhaps only an implicit, desire or intention. The man who is not thus in contact with Our Lord cannot have the remission of sin. And he cannot have the effects that follow upon that remission of sin.

        Once again, if we are to look upon this section of Catholic teaching accurately and objectively, we must take the trouble to realize that Our Lord did not die the terrible death of the Cross for the attainment of any paltry or merely accidental objective. He died to save men from sin and from the penalties of sin. He died to save men from servitude to Satan, the leader of all who are turned against God, and to save them from everlasting exclusion from the Beatific Vision. He died to save them from the everlasting penalties of hell. No one can have this gift of salvation apart from Him.

        Moreover, we must not lose sight of the fact that all men stand in need of redemption. There is absolutely no one who can come to the love and friendship of God by his own unaided natural powers. All men need the remission of sin, which is to be found only in the redemptive sacrifice of Our Lord. The infusion or granting of the supernatural life of grace is the positive aspect of the remission of original or mortal sin, and this life of grace is a sharing of the divine life, a sharing which is not to be obtained apart from the Incarnate Word of God. Since the sin of Adam there never has been and there never will be the remission of sin or the granting of the life of sanctifying grace to any human being apart from the force of Our Lord's redemptive sacrifice.

        It is a further fact that, in the designs of God's providence, men come into salvific contact with Our Lord in His kingdom or His Mystical Body. Such, as a matter of fact, is the basic concept of God's kingdom even here on earth, for it is inherently the community of God's chosen people. The kingdom of God on earth is the social unit or the company of those who are "saved" in the sense that they are removed from the dominion of the prince of this world. It is the society within which Our Lord dwells and over which He presides as the true and invisible Head. And, in God's Own dispensation, this society, in the period of the New Testament, is the Catholic Church.

        Some of those who have written with what seems to be the avowed intention of weakening or obscuring this section of Catholic doctrine have admitted (as anyone who claims to be a Catholic must admit) that there is no salvation apart from Our Lord's redemption, but have likewise taught that we do not know the direction of those graces which God gives, through Our Lord, to those who are outside the Catholic Church. This assertion is definitely untrue.

        All of the supernatural aids granted by God to any man tend to lead him to the eternal possession of the Beatific Vision. They likewise direct him toward those realities which, either by their very nature or by God's own institution, are requisite for the attainment of the Beatific Vision. One of those realities is the visible Catholic Church, the religious society over which the Bishop of Rome presides as the Vicar of Christ on earth. The graces which God grants to any man outside the Church will inevitably guide him in the direction of the Church.

        If a man continues faithful to the graces given him by God he will certainly attain to eternal salvation. And he will just as certainly obtain that salvation "within" the true Church of Jesus Christ. God's grace will lead a man in the direction of justification, according to the pattern set forth in the teaching of the Council of Trent. It will direct him to believe God's revealed message with a certain assent based on the authority of God Himself revealing. It will lead him in the direction of salutary fear and of hope and of initial love of God and of penance. Ultimately it will lead him to a desire of baptism, even though, in some cases, that desire may be only implicit in character. And baptism is of itself the gateway to the Church, the Mystical body of Christ, within which the life of grace and salvation are to be found. In the case of a man who is already baptized, the preparation for justification includes an intention (at least implicit) of remaining within the kingdom of God to which baptism itself is the gateway.

        It is both idle and misleading to characterize the teaching of the Cantate Domino as in any way "rigorous" or exigent [demanding - J.G.]. This doctrine, which is standard Catholic teaching, is only the expression of what God has taught about the place of His Son's Mystical Body in the economy of man's salvation. Neither the Catholic Church itself nor the teachers of the Church have made the Church something requisite for the attainment of the Beatific Vision. When the Church makes the sort of statement that is found in the Cantate Domino, it is acting merely as the teacher of what God Himself has revealed. As the Mystical Body of Christ, the society within which Our Lord Himself is the supreme Teacher, the Church could not do otherwise.

        Disagreeable as the task may seem to some individuals, the Catholic Church has to face the facts. Basic among those facts is the truth that, apart from the redemption which is in Jesus Christ, all men would inevitably have been excluded for all eternity from the possession of the Beatific Vision, in which alone the ultimate and eternal end and happiness of man may be attained. Another fact is that the punishment for unforgiven mortal sin (sin which the guilty party has not repented) is the everlasting penalty of hell, a penalty which includes both the poena damni and poena sensus. Still another fact is that the forgiveness of sin and the infusion of the life of grace is available by the power of Christ only "within" His kingdom, His Mystical Body, which, in this period of the New Testament, is the visible Catholic Church. Such, in the final analysis, is this teaching of the first section of our citation from the Cantate Domino.

        The second sentence in the portion of the docuмent translated at the beginning of this chapter brings out the fact that acts which would otherwise be most conducive to salvation are deprived of their effect if they are performed "outside" the bond of unity of the Catholic Church. It teaches that even the reception of the sacraments cannot be "profitable unto salvation," that is, cannot produce their effects in the life of divine grace for those who are outside of the unity of the ecclesiastical body. Furthermore it asserts that no work which of its very nature ought to be salutary can be profitable in the line of salvation unless these works are performed "within" the true Church of Jesus Christ.

        Now, the sacraments produce grace of themselves, ex opera operato, as the technical language of sacred theology says. They bring about this effect except where there is some disposition on the part of the recipient which is incompatible with the reception of the life of sanctifying grace. According to the terminology of the Cantate Domino, such an obstacle exists in a person who is "outside" the unity of the ecclesiastical body, the Mystical body of Jesus Christ.

        Once again, at this point it is absolutely imperative to remember that being "within" the Church is not exactly the same as being a member of this social unit. A man is a member of the Church when he is baptized, and when he has neither publicly renounced his baptismal profession of the true faith nor withdrawn from the fellowship of the Church, and when he has not been expelled from the company of the disciples by having received the fullness of excommunication. But a man is "within" the Church to the extent that he can be saved "within" it when he is a member or even when he sincerely, albeit perhaps only implicitly, desires to enter it. The condition requisite for profiting from the reception of the sacraments or from the performance of acts which should be salutary is being "within" the Church.

        Now, while it is possible to have a desire to be within the Church, and, indeed even to be a member of the Church, without having the love of charity for God, it is quite impossible to have charity without being within the true Church, at least by an implicit desire to dwell in it. The love of charity is, by its very nature, a sovereign affection. It is definable in terms of intention rather than of mere velleity [a slight wish - J.G.]; and it necessarily embodies an intention, rather than a mere velleity, to do what Our Lord actually wills we should do. And Our Lord wills that all men should enter and remain within the one society of His disciples, His Kingdom and His Mystical body in this world.

        An intention, incidentally, is an act of the will which is expressed by the statement that I am actually setting out to do a certain thing; a velleity, on the other hand, is an act of the will expressed in the declaration that I would like to do a thing. If I really intend to do a certain thing-to take a definite trip, for example-that intention necessarily affects all the rest of my plans and my conduct at the time. The man who really intends to take a plane to New York certainly will not make any plans or enter into any agreements incompatible with the taking of the trip he has set out to make. The mere velleity, on the other hand, has no such effectiveness. If I say I would like to take a trip to New York, this statement and the act of the will of which it is the expression have no influence whatsoever on the rest of my plans. The velleity is a mere complacency in an idea. It involves no actual preparation to accomplish its objective.

        The love of charity is essentially something in the line of intention rather than of mere velleity. The man who loves God with the true affection of charity actually intends, insofar as it is possible for him to do so, to do the will of God. It is definitely the will of God that all men should enter and live within the Mystical Body of Jesus Christ. It is impossible for a man who really loves God with the affection of divine charity not to be within the Church as a member or at least to desire with a sincere and effective, even though perhaps only an implicit, intention to enter this company.

        Hence, if a man is not "within" the Church at least by a sincere desire or affection, he has not the genuine love of charity for God. In such a case there is some intention which runs counter to God's will acting as the guiding and the motivating force of his life. If that intention persists, it remains incompatible with the love of charity and with the life of sanctifying grace, which is inseparable from the love of charity. The man with such an intention is not in a position to profit from the sacraments or from a work which, of its very nature, ought to be salutary. The life of sanctifying grace is impossible for a man who possesses an intention incompatible with the intention of charity itself. The man who is outside the Church, in the sense that he does not even have an implicit desire to enter the kingdom of God on earth, obviously acts as moved by such an intention.

        Thus the Cantate Domino brings out very clearly the following facts which were previously set forth in a more implicit manner in previous declarations of the Church.

        (1) All of those outside the Church, even individuals who have committed no sin against the faith itself, are in a position in which they cannot be saved unless they in some way enter or join the Church before they die.

        (2) The alternative to eternal and supernatural salvation is deprivation of the Beatific Vision. In the case of those who are guilty of mortal sin which remains unrepented, this includes both the penalty of loss and the penalty of sense in hell.

        (3) The spiritual condition of one who is not "within" the Church at least by an act of implicit desire is incompatible with the reception of the life of sanctifying grace.

        Furthermore, a study of the Cantate Domino should make it apparent that the dogma of the Church's necessity for the attainment of eternal salvation is not directed "against" any individuals or any societies. This dogma is only a statement by the Church of the truth which God has revealed and which He has confided to the Church. According to God's own message, men in this world stand in need of genuine salvation, and, in His goodness and mercy, God has made His supernatural kingdom on earth the company in which alone this salvation is to be achieved.

        It is well to remember that the teaching of the Cantate Domino is not that men must actually become members of the Church in order to attain to eternal salvation. The docuмent insists that pagans, Jєωs, heretics, and schismatics will not be saved unless, before the end of their lives they are joined (aggregate) to the one true Church. It is Catholic doctrine now, and it was Catholic doctrine when the Cantate Domino was written, that a man who is in the Church in the sense that he sincerely, even though only implicitly, desires to live within it, is in a position to be saved if he should die before he is able to attain membership in the Church.
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church


    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Cantate Domino
    « Reply #1 on: June 09, 2014, 10:13:30 AM »
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  • Anyone have comments on the commentary by Fenton on the issue?  It's pretty clear to most Catholics and should get two thumbs up no?
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church


    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Cantate Domino
    « Reply #2 on: June 10, 2014, 09:24:51 AM »
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  • The article is clear, Catholic and concise.  It deserves 3 thumbs up.  Someone give Fenton a little credit please.
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Cantate Domino
    « Reply #3 on: June 10, 2014, 09:25:54 AM »
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  • Show the error of Fenton Feneyites.
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Cantate Domino
    « Reply #4 on: June 10, 2014, 09:47:20 AM »
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  • Fenton is solid until about halfway through the article when he starts babbling on about some bizarre gnostic "salvific contact with Our Lord".

    You can see Fenton struggling with the attempt to reconcile the spurious Suprema Haec with Traditional Catholic ecclesiology, doing bizarre theological gymnastics in order to make the two fit, instead of rejecting SH for what it is, a masterpiece in heretical chicanery, a hoax perpetrated upon the Church by the heresiarch Cushing in cooperation with a Masonic plant buddy of his in the Holy Office.  Why wouldn't a docuмent of such import make it into AAS?  Because I'm sure Pius XII insisted upon approving and reviewing everything that went into AAS, since by appearing in AAS it canonically had his authority behind it.  So they snuck this under his nose by publishing it in Cushing's own rag instead.



    Offline Lover of Truth

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    « Reply #5 on: June 10, 2014, 11:18:12 AM »
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  • Quote from: Ladislaus
    Fenton is solid until about halfway through the article when he starts babbling on about some bizarre gnostic "salvific contact with Our Lord".

    You can see Fenton struggling with the attempt to reconcile the spurious Suprema Haec with Traditional Catholic ecclesiology, doing bizarre theological gymnastics in order to make the two fit, instead of rejecting SH for what it is, a masterpiece in heretical chicanery, a hoax perpetrated upon the Church by the heresiarch Cushing in cooperation with a Masonic plant buddy of his in the Holy Office.  Why wouldn't a docuмent of such import make it into AAS?  Because I'm sure Pius XII insisted upon approving and reviewing everything that went into AAS, since by appearing in AAS it canonically had his authority behind it.  So they snuck this under his nose by publishing it in Cushing's own rag instead.



    Do you believe in Santa Claus?  Just curious.  He doesn't struggle at all.  He's got it.  He knows what the Church teaches.

    He says this salvific contact with our Lord can only be obtained within the Church.  What is wrong with that?

    He also admired Feeney and was a gentle with him as possible.  No name calling and personal bashing there.  In his own words, "I would like to see the old boy rehabilitated".  This or something to that effect was in his diary.  He called everyone old boy whether he liked them or not.  He was one of the greatest theologians of the 21st century and was addressing the newly manufactured error of the Feeneyites clarify the issue while make all the qualified distinctions we was qualified to make.    We are nothing.  He knew what he was talking about.  That is a fact.  You don't like his conclusion so you deny the fact.
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    « Reply #6 on: June 11, 2014, 11:35:23 AM »
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  • Thanks for actually reading the chapter though Ladislaus, you are in a very small minority.  Most others don't read, or if they do, obviously don't grasp what he is saying.  They don't quote him and try to "refute" him as you did.  Kudos for at least reading it.
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Ladislaus

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    « Reply #7 on: June 11, 2014, 12:48:42 PM »
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  • Quote from: Lover of Truth
    He also admired Feeney and was a gentle with him as possible.  No name calling and personal bashing there.  In his own words, "I would like to see the old boy rehabilitated".


    As I mentioned, most of his writing is very solid but then he gets all weird because he feels the need to make things like SH fit with everything else that came before it.  Essentially, his trying to make it fit reminds me of people in the Novus Ordo trying to make Vatican II fit with Tradition ... you end up with some weird tortured logic and many word games (Clinton-esque "depends on what your meaning of the word 'is' is" stuff) ... with non-members being invisible parts of a Church which doesn't have an invisible part.

    I'm sure that he realized that the problem Father Feeney was confronting was a VERY REAL problem.  He realized that the problem wasn't Father Feeney but the enemies of Father Feeney.


    Offline Lover of Truth

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    « Reply #8 on: June 11, 2014, 02:24:46 PM »
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  • Quote from: Ladislaus
    Quote from: Lover of Truth
    He also admired Feeney and was a gentle with him as possible.  No name calling and personal bashing there.  In his own words, "I would like to see the old boy rehabilitated".


    As I mentioned, most of his writing is very solid but then he gets all weird because he feels the need to make things like SH fit with everything else that came before it.  Essentially, his trying to make it fit reminds me of people in the Novus Ordo trying to make Vatican II fit with Tradition ... you end up with some weird tortured logic and many word games (Clinton-esque "depends on what your meaning of the word 'is' is" stuff) ... with non-members being invisible parts of a Church which doesn't have an invisible part.

    I'm sure that he realized that the problem Father Feeney was confronting was a VERY REAL problem.  He realized that the problem wasn't Father Feeney but the enemies of Father Feeney.


    I might feel stupid after you answer but what is "SH"?  

    You have an interesting perspective on Fenton.  One that all the orthodox Catholics of his day and sense would find perplexing at the very least.  Might the error entrenched in your mind have something to do with it?

    Thanks again for actually reading it.
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Cantarella

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    « Reply #9 on: June 11, 2014, 02:26:01 PM »
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  • The following paragraphs are erroneous and heretic. Typical modernist double talk:

    Quote from: Fenton


    It is both idle and misleading to characterize the teaching of the Cantate Domino as in any way "rigorous" or exigent [demanding - J.G.]. This doctrine, which is standard Catholic teaching, is only the expression of what God has taught about the place of His Son's Mystical Body in the economy of man's salvation. Neither the Catholic Church itself nor the teachers of the Church have made the Church something requisite for the attainment of the Beatific Vision. When the Church makes the sort of statement that is found in the Cantate Domino, it is acting merely as the teacher of what God Himself has revealed. As the Mystical Body of Christ, the society within which Our Lord Himself is the supreme Teacher, the Church could not do otherwise.


    Quote from: Fenton

     Once again, at this point it is absolutely imperative to remember that being "within" the Church is not exactly the same as being a member of this social unit. A man is a member of the Church when he is baptized, and when he has neither publicly renounced his baptismal profession of the true faith nor withdrawn from the fellowship of the Church, and when he has not been expelled from the company of the disciples by having received the fullness of excommunication. But a man is "within" the Church to the extent that he can be saved "within" it when he is a member or even when he sincerely, albeit perhaps only implicitly, desires to enter it. The condition requisite for profiting from the reception of the sacraments or from the performance of acts which should be salutary is being "within" the Church.


    Quote from: Fenton

    It is Catholic doctrine now, and it was Catholic doctrine when the Cantate Domino was written, that a man who is in the Church in the sense that he sincerely, even though only implicitly, desires to live within it, is in a position to be saved if he should die before he is able to attain membership in the Church.


    It is a real act of Penance to read Fr. Fenton, with his style clearly tainted by the modernist sentimental mindset. Nothing different that Vatican II ambiguous and tedious to read style.  
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    « Reply #10 on: June 11, 2014, 02:33:05 PM »
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  • Quote from: Cantarella
    The following paragraphs are erroneous and heretic. Typical modernist double talk:

    Quote from: Fenton


    It is both idle and misleading to characterize the teaching of the Cantate Domino as in any way "rigorous" or exigent [demanding - J.G.]. This doctrine, which is standard Catholic teaching, is only the expression of what God has taught about the place of His Son's Mystical Body in the economy of man's salvation. Neither the Catholic Church itself nor the teachers of the Church have made the Church something requisite for the attainment of the Beatific Vision. When the Church makes the sort of statement that is found in the Cantate Domino, it is acting merely as the teacher of what God Himself has revealed. As the Mystical Body of Christ, the society within which Our Lord Himself is the supreme Teacher, the Church could not do otherwise.


    Quote from: Fenton

     Once again, at this point it is absolutely imperative to remember that being "within" the Church is not exactly the same as being a member of this social unit. A man is a member of the Church when he is baptized, and when he has neither publicly renounced his baptismal profession of the true faith nor withdrawn from the fellowship of the Church, and when he has not been expelled from the company of the disciples by having received the fullness of excommunication. But a man is "within" the Church to the extent that he can be saved "within" it when he is a member or even when he sincerely, albeit perhaps only implicitly, desires to enter it. The condition requisite for profiting from the reception of the sacraments or from the performance of acts which should be salutary is being "within" the Church.


    Quote from: Fenton

    It is Catholic doctrine now, and it was Catholic doctrine when the Cantate Domino was written, that a man who is in the Church in the sense that he sincerely, even though only implicitly, desires to live within it, is in a position to be saved if he should die before he is able to attain membership in the Church.


    It is a real act of Penance to read Fr. Fenton, with his style clearly tainted by the modernist sentimental mindset. Nothing different that Vatican II ambiguous and tedious to read style.  


    Ipsi dixit. Explain why they are heresies.  Show your sources.  We accept this merely because Cantarella says so.  Cantarella also says Aquinas, Bellermine and Alphonsus are wrong.  And in their cases she even tries to show why.  So we should take your word over theirs on the issue?  

    I wish you could take a dispassionate look at the reality realizing that all the great theologians, clergy and faithful that know anything about Monsignor Fenton regard him as one of the greatest Catholic theologians of the 20th century.  But Cantarella begs to differ.  Please back this up with something weighty.  
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church


    Offline Cantarella

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    « Reply #11 on: June 11, 2014, 03:16:02 PM »
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  • It is very simple. It is the heresy of the day: the heresy of invincible ignorance which leads to indifferentism. Throughout 2000 years the Church has infallibly declared that there is not possible salvation outside Her baptized membership. Here a little reminder of the Infallible Magisterium on EENS. We have countless of other fallible sources that affirm this Truth. It must be added that every dogma is exclusive, and admits of no interpretation contrary to that which it has received from the beginning.

    Quote


    Pope Eugene IV, in the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441, proclaimed ex cathedra:
    "The Most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, also Jєωs, heretics, and schismatics can ever be partakers of eternal life, but that they are to go into the eternal fire 'which was prepared for the devil and his angels' (Mt. 25:41) unless before death they are joined with Her... No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ can be saved unless they abide within the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church." ---> Need not Fr. Fenton to interpret this dogma for us to fit the current modernist needs.  

    Pope Innocent III, ex cathedra, (Fourth Lateran Council, 1215):
    "There is one universal Church of the faithful, outside of which no one at all can be saved".  

    Pope Boniface VIII, (Unam Sanctam, 1302):
    "We declare, say , define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.  



    This means, and has always meant, that salvation and unity exist only within the Catholic Church, and that members of heretical groups cannot be considered as "part" of the Church of Christ.

    All three of these statements are ex cathedra definitions of the Church and of the Pontiffs who made them. (Ex cathedra means that these are infallible teachings of the Church which all persons must believe in order to be saved. These teachings are not subject to change as the popes in making these declarations of faith were guided by the Holy Ghost, Who is unchangeable.)

    Since the aforementioned formula (Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus) is a doctrine of Catholicity, all writers, whether they be saints and/or Doctors, of old or of late, all popes and theologians, of whatever era, and their pronouncements are reliable in their treatment of this subject, if they accept and support it. Their testimony or opinions are useless (at best), if they do not, this regardless of any other contribution they may have made to Catholic erudition. The same must be said of the works of all Catholic writers. Such dogmatic statements are not to be colored, or reduced, or altered in any way.
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    « Reply #12 on: June 12, 2014, 05:40:17 AM »
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  • Quote from: Cantarella
    It is very simple. It is the heresy of the day: the heresy of invincible ignorance which leads to indifferentism. Throughout 2000 years the Church has infallibly declared that there is not possible salvation outside Her baptized membership. Here a little reminder of the Infallible Magisterium on EENS. We have countless of other fallible sources that affirm this Truth. It must be added that every dogma is exclusive, and admits of no interpretation contrary to that which it has received from the beginning.

    Quote


    Pope Eugene IV, in the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441, proclaimed ex cathedra:
    "The Most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, also Jєωs, heretics, and schismatics can ever be partakers of eternal life, but that they are to go into the eternal fire 'which was prepared for the devil and his angels' (Mt. 25:41) unless before death they are joined with Her... No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ can be saved unless they abide within the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church." ---> Need not Fr. Fenton to interpret this dogma for us to fit the current modernist needs.  

    Pope Innocent III, ex cathedra, (Fourth Lateran Council, 1215):
    "There is one universal Church of the faithful, outside of which no one at all can be saved".  

    Pope Boniface VIII, (Unam Sanctam, 1302):
    "We declare, say , define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.  



    This means, and has always meant, that salvation and unity exist only within the Catholic Church, and that members of heretical groups cannot be considered as "part" of the Church of Christ.

    All three of these statements are ex cathedra definitions of the Church and of the Pontiffs who made them. (Ex cathedra means that these are infallible teachings of the Church which all persons must believe in order to be saved. These teachings are not subject to change as the popes in making these declarations of faith were guided by the Holy Ghost, Who is unchangeable.)

    Since the aforementioned formula (Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus) is a doctrine of Catholicity, all writers, whether they be saints and/or Doctors, of old or of late, all popes and theologians, of whatever era, and their pronouncements are reliable in their treatment of this subject, if they accept and support it. Their testimony or opinions are useless (at best), if they do not, this regardless of any other contribution they may have made to Catholic erudition. The same must be said of the works of all Catholic writers. Such dogmatic statements are not to be colored, or reduced, or altered in any way.


    Kudos for reading the chapter as well.  Now if you could get in line with the Catholic teaching understanding and accepting the EENS as the Church understands it then you could focus more on your spiritual life using the time wasted defending error for prayer and reading things from the Catholic Church rather than the heretical part of the NO known as SBC.  
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Stubborn

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    « Reply #13 on: June 14, 2014, 03:40:44 AM »
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  • Quote from: Lover of Truth
    The article is clear, Catholic and concise.  It deserves 3 thumbs up.  Someone give Fenton a little credit please.


    If we want to read heresy, we can read pretty much anything from Fenton on the dogma EENS. He teaches how to reduce the dogma to a meaningless formula.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    « Reply #14 on: June 14, 2014, 03:53:14 AM »
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  •                                             Extra Ecciesiam Nulla Salus

                                                        The Dogma of Faith


    "There is only one universal Church of the faithful, outside
    of which no one at all can be saved."
    (Pope Innocent III, Fourth
    Lateran Council, 1215. Denz. 802.)

    "We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely
    necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject
    to the Roman Pontiff."
    (Pope Boniface VIII, in the bull, Unam
    Sanctam, 1302. Denz. 875.)

    "The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes, and
    teaches, that none of those who are not within the Catholic
    Church, not only pagans, but Jєωs, heretics and schismatics, can
    ever be partakers of eternal life, but are to go into the eternal fire
    'prepared for the devil, and his angels' (Mt. 25: 41)., unless before
    the close of their lives they shall have entered into that Church;
    also that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is such that the
    Church's sacraments avail only those abiding in that Church, and
    that fasts, almsdeeds, and other works of piety which play their
    part in the Christian combat are in her alone productive of
    eternal rewards; moreover, that no one, no matter what alms he
    may have given, not even if he were to shed his blood for Christ's
    sake, can be saved unless he abide in the bosom and unity of the
    Catholic Church."
    (Mansi, Concilia, xxxi, 1739; Pope Eugene IV, in
    the bull, Cantate Domino, 1441. Denz. 1351.)

    The implications of these pronouncements, taken together, are as
    follows:

    1. All three of these statements are ex cathedra definitions of the
    Church and of the Pontiffs who made them.

    2. Being ex cathedra definitions, they must be taken literally,
    unequivocally, and absolutely. Hence, to attempt to modify or qualify
    them in any way is to deny them.

    3. The doctrine says that only (Roman) Catholics go to Heaven;
    all others are lost, that is, they do not go to Heaven, but to Hell. All
    who are inclined to dispute this dogma should have the good sense to
    realize that if this is not what the words of the definitions mean, the
    Church would never have promulgated such a position. To give any
    other meaning to these words is to portray the Church as foolish and
    ridiculous; to quote Pope Pius XII, it is to reduce the Dogma of
    Exclusive Salvation to a "meaningless formula."

    4. The pronouncements indicate that, by divine decree, those
    only will be saved who are members of the Church when they die.
    This membership must be formal, real, explicit, and, in those of the
    (mental) age of reason, deliberate. There is no such thing as "potential"
    membership in the Church (except that which refers to everyone
    outside the Church), or "implicit" membership, or "quasimembership,"
    or "invisible membership," or anything of the kind.
    Neither can those who are catechumens, that is, those who are preparing
    to enter the Church, be considered members.

    5. Excluded also from this real and necessary membership are
    those who are unwilling to submit to the religious sovereignty of the
    Pope, though their faith be otherwise Catholic, and their morals
    laudable. All this means that the Church establishes the terms of
    membership within itself-and is reasserting them by these
    decrease-and no one else.

    6. Similarly, the decrees exclude all exceptions whatsoever, and
    implied in them is the sanctioning of all subterfuges and excuses such
    as "invincible ignorance," "good will," "baptism of desire," and the
    like.

    7. Since the aforementioned formula (Extra Ecciesiam Nulla
    Salus) is a doctrine of Catholicity, it is the standard of orthodoxy on
    the subject of salvation; which is to say, all writers, whether they be
    saints and/or Doctors, of old or of late, all popes and theologians, of
    whatever era, and their pronouncements are reliable in their treatment
    of this subject, if they accept and support it. Their testimony or
    opinions are useless (at best), if they do not, this regardless of any
    other contribution they may have made to Catholic erudition. The
    same must be said of the works of all Catholic writers.

    8. Such a dogmatic statement is the most certain knowledge that
    men have, more certain than metaphysical principles, or mathematical
    formulas, or historical accounts. It is the revelation and proposition of
    God Himself.

    9. Such a dogmatic statement is not to be colored, or reduced, or
    altered, by reference to the Sacred Scriptures. On the contrary, it is in
    terms of such a statement that all the Scriptures are to be read and un-
    10. This doctrine is a mystery, as are all the sacred dogmas of
    the Faith. This means that it cannot be fully understood, nor adequately
    explained. As with other dogmas, were this truth self-evident, or
    provable, or comprehensible, there would be little reason for the
    Church to define it.

    11. The negative tenor of these definitions is to warn that any
    word, or artifice, or attentuation, which relieves every individual of
    the human race from the obligation of joining the Roman Catholic
    Church is condemned as contrary to divine prescription.

    12. Let the reader accept the reasonable fact that the Pontiffs
    who pronounced these decrees were perfectly literate and fully
    cognizant of what they were saying. If there were any need to soften
    or qualify their meanings, they were quite capable of doing so. They
    were not regarded as heretics or fanatics at the time of their pronouncements,
    and have never been labelled such by the Church to this very
    day. It is an easy thing for the people of this "enlightened' age to fall
    into the modern delusion that the men of former times, especially
    those of the Middle Ages, were not as bright as we are, so that they
    sometimes said they knew not what.

    13. The dates of these definitions are extremely important. They
    mark the time when the Church terminated speculation and discussion
    among theologians on the subject of the conditions of salvation. All
    writings on this subject, therefore, which predate these definitions
    have value only in so far as they corroborate these definitions.

    14. The Doctrine of Exclusive Salvation is described as fundamental
    or "foundational" to Catholic theology. It is called the
    "Dogma of Faith," because, of a truth, unless a person accepts it in all
    its momentous absoluteness, he really does not accept the Catholic
    Faith, howsoever he protests that he does. Conversely, he who dilutes
    this doctrine to any degree, so radically distorts the Faith that he
    renders it null and void, and his own faith in the bargain. For he who
    denies this doctrine makes Catholicity hardly more than a nicety, as if
    membership in the Church were like the first-class compartment on a
    commercial airliner, in which the majority of others will arrive at the
    same destination, really none the worse for their second-class
    transport.

    15. Almost everybody who writes or comments on this subject
    explains the doctrine by explaining it away, as we shall see further on.
    He begins by affirming the truth of the axiom, Extra Ecciesiam, etc.,
    and ends by denying it-while continuing to insist vigorously that he
    is not doing so. He seems to think it a clever thing to state the formula,
    then to weasel out of it. What he ought to do is one of two
    things: either admit that he does not believe this dogma (and also in
    the same breath, that he does not believe in the Dogma of the
    Church's Infallibility); or he should allow for the possibility that there
    is something about the Catholic Doctrine of Salvation of which he is
    unaware, or which he refuses to accept, or has been misled into denying.

    16. The doctrine determines who has good will and who has bad
    will. Those who have bad will are in the state of sin. In rejecting of
    God's accredited word and work, they reveal their true selves: They
    choose not to be among those of whom Christ spoke when he said: "I
    know mine, and mine know me." (Jn. 10:14). When it is responded
    that certain individuals do not know that what they are hearing is
    God's word, the reply is: What is being said demands that careful
    inquiry be made. If the inquiry is made with the disposition of
    humility, integrity, and courage, the inquirer will find that the word
    cannot be denied. No argument or evidence has ever been discovered
    which will leave the honest man free of the revealed word's imperative

    17. It important that the reader who thinks he disagrees with the
    literal reading of these decrees not throw his hands up in indignation
    and put this book aside with the exclamation of "Heresy!" It should be
    obvious that the reason Catholics, himself included, regard heresy
    with such horror and alarm is this very doctrine. For if there is salvation
    outside the Church, what difference does it make whether one is
    in the Church or out of it, whether one is a heretic in the judgment of
    the Church or not? Really, if to deny this doctrine is not heresy, there
    is no such thing as heresy, and it would have been pointless, as well
    as illogical, for the Church to attach such severe censures to the denial
    of this or any other doctrine.

    18. This doctrine is the basis for the labors of all who seek to
    maintain and restore traditional Catholicity, though most of those who
    are engaged in this struggle have yet to realize the fact. Without this
    doctrine, assented to absolutely, Traditionalists have no cause and no
    argument against the current "reform" in the Church, as it is called.

    19. From this point on, instead of protesting either internally or
    audibly against a position which seems altogether rash, callous,
    and/or indefensible, let the reader quietly and humbly submit his mind
    to the Holy Ghost, the Spirit of Truth. (Jn. 14:17). Let him be convinced
    that the language used does not imply a personal attack upon
    him, but is for the glory of this holy doctrine, and in opposition to the
    heresy which denies it.

    20. Since we hold the Doctrine of Exclusive Salvation, we hold
    all modifications, qualifications, attenuations, and denials of it to be
    heresy, and those who defend these positions to be material heretics at
    least. It is contrary to Catholic tradition to treat heresy amicably, or
    heretics as brothers in Christ, but rather, as His enemies. If in places
    the language of this writing seem acidic, it is so in order to brace
    dissenters with their true standing with respect to Christ, Who is the
    Truth.

    21. The effort herein will be to affirm the eminent and radical
    objectivity of the Catholic Faith. Every dogma is a statement by the
    Church of a rock-like truth which is immovable and immutable. It is
    in no way subject to human plebiscite, and, like God Himself, about
    Whom it speaks, must be recognized as greater than man, because it is
    true.

    22. Contrariwise, every heresy is the denial of a divinelyrevealed
    truth, the denial of a divine act and dispensation. And, as
    such, it is the denial of a supernatural mystery and concrete reality. It
    is, in other words, a non-reality, a nothing presented as a reality. And
    being a nothing, it can effect nothing. And regardless of the fervor, or
    sincerity, or joyful assurance of those who are deluded by it, it can do
    nothing for them. There is no power in a negation of reality, there
    is no substance in error. If the reader bears this truism in mind while
    reading the pages that follow, he will find them more digestible.

    23. Let all know that they have no choice but to accept this
    doctrine-if they would be saved. We are not proposing a theory here,
    or a merely stricter interpretation. This matter is already closed, and
    the author has the obligation of propounding it for no other reason
    than that it is Catholic truth.

    24. The fact that this all-important doctrine is unknown, or
    misunderstood, or misinterpreted, by most Catholics points up the
    need that all have to re-learn the truth that Catholicity is an objective
    religion, whereas Protestantism (to say nothing of other "religions') is
    for the most part subjective; and the tenets of Humanism which
    underlie the Liberalism of Conciliar Catholics are totally subjective.
    When we say that our religion is objective-something that should
    not have to be said, and must be said simply because the thinking of
    most believers is woefully twisted-we mean that, with respect to
    religion in general, and the matter of salvation of souls in particular,
    there is an objective truth about these matters which is perfectly
    knowable, but not subject to human opinion or sentiment. All is
    governed by what God has established, and that is all there is to it. As
    Fr. Denis Fahey said, "To the Divine Plan for order there neither is
    nor can be any man-made alternative. Man has not even got the right
    to propose an alternative. His duty is simply to try to grasp what God
    has instituted and bow down his head in humble acceptance."

    25. This dogma rules out the possibility of simple invincible
    ignorance concerning the matter of salvation; those who die in
    ignorance of the Church as the only course of salvific grace must be
    adjudged to have been culpably so. In a word, they did not know
    because they did not want to know. (A discussion of invincible
    ignorance will come in due course.)

    26. As far as the reader may think us to be from Catholic truth
    on account of our uncompromisingness concerning this doctrine is he
    himself for want of it. If he judges us to be in heresy, and for that very
    reason to some degree estranged from the Church, this writing will
    seek to convince him that to that very degree is he. This means that he
    must prepare to re-think and even to re-learn his Faith in the light of
    this holy doctrine.


    Having said these things, this writer's task, in one respect, is
    completed, even though, obviously, there are many pages to follow;
    that is, no matter how poorly he deals with the objections to this
    dogma hereafter, and no matter whether he contributes anything to its
    elucidation, its truth will remain unimpaired, and a major part of the
    thesis of the book has been established. In other words, he delights in
    his assignment of betting on a sure winner.



    Taken from the book:
    Who Shall Ascend?
    by Fr. James Wathen

    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse