Author Topic: Canonical Status of CMRI and SSPX (Read 8527 times)

Ambrose · « **Reply #60 on:** June 25, 2014, 01:44:23 AM »

Quote from: Hermenegild

Quote from: Ambrose
Quote from: Hermenegild
Billot states that only those, therefore, who have a mission from Christ — namely, those to whom the apostolic mission derives — dispense them legitimately.

Your comment seems to disagree. If it doesn't, please explain.

Does the Pope lack a mission from Christ? It is the Pope who specifically made these laws.

That doesn't answer or explain Billot's comment.

The Council of Trent
The Twenty-Third Session

CANON VII.--If any one saith, that bishops are not superior to priests; or, that they have not the power of confirming and ordaining; or, that the power which they possess is common to them and to priests; or, that orders, conferred by them, without the consent, or vocation of the people, or of the secular power, are invalid; or, that those who have neither been rightly ordained, nor sent, by ecclesiastical and canonical power, but come from elsewhere, are lawful ministers of the word and of the sacraments; let him be anathema.

They are not lawful ministers of the sacraments under the ordinary meaning of the term. They are only allowed to administer the sacraments according to the laws which permit them to do so.

They do so under the authority of St. Peter who permits them to so.

Do you accept that that the laws of St. Peter's successors bind and that Catholics are bound to his laws?

MyrnaM · « **Reply #61 on:** June 25, 2014, 08:35:59 AM »

Do you agree that laws are made to protect the laity, and the first mission and LAW of the Church is to save souls?

Laws are only as good as when they are forceful, effective. Who forces these laws today?

Do you agree we are not living in normal times, but the Great Apostasy?

It sounds, since you already admitted you know NOT, where this authority resides, that you believe the Church is dead, the devil won, and Jesus Christ lost.
All is lost in your mind, we might as well just stay home and ignore totally the little that Christ has provided for us since in your mind, the law that is your God, can not help us.

Frances · « **Reply #62 on:** June 25, 2014, 08:51:19 AM »

:dancing-banana:
When the Law of God replaces God as God, is not the First Commandment violated? This is the sin of the Pharisees. The final result is that man puts himself in the place of God and says, "The Law means whatever I say it means." Anti-Christ theology!

Ambrose · « **Reply #63 on:** June 29, 2014, 12:18:24 AM »

Quote from: Hermenegild

Yes, jurisdiction is granted to the case of a penitent who is in danger of death.

But Cappello was referring to deputation. Deputation is a legitimate faculty or permission from the Church to administer sacraments.

“No one dispenses another person’s property legitimately unless he does so based on that person’s command. Now, the sacraments are Christ’s property. Only those, therefore, who have a mission from Christ — namely, those to whom the apostolic mission derives — dispense them legitimately.” (Billot, De Ecclesiae Sacramentis 1:179.)

Jurisdiction is not granted to the penitent, but is supplied to the minister of the sacrament.

Ambrose · « **Reply #64 on:** June 29, 2014, 12:59:45 AM »

Quote from: Hermenegild

Quote from: Ambrose
Quote from: Hermenegild
Quote from: Ambrose
Quote from: Hermenegild
Billot states that only those, therefore, who have a mission from Christ — namely, those to whom the apostolic mission derives — dispense them legitimately.

Your comment seems to disagree. If it doesn't, please explain.

Does the Pope lack a mission from Christ? It is the Pope who specifically made these laws.

That doesn't answer or explain Billot's comment.

The Council of Trent
The Twenty-Third Session

CANON VII.--If any one saith, that bishops are not superior to priests; or, that they have not the power of confirming and ordaining; or, that the power which they possess is common to them and to priests; or, that orders, conferred by them, without the consent, or vocation of the people, or of the secular power, are invalid; or, that those who have neither been rightly ordained, nor sent, by ecclesiastical and canonical power, but come from elsewhere, are lawful ministers of the word and of the sacraments; let him be anathema.

They are not lawful ministers of the sacraments under the ordinary meaning of the term. They are only allowed to administer the sacraments according to the laws which permit them to do so.

They do so under the authority of St. Peter who permits them to so.

Do you accept that that the laws of St. Peter's successors bind and that Catholics are bound to his laws?

So you agree they dispense the sacraments illegitimately - otherwise you disagree with Billot.

Cardinal Billot taught:

Quote

“No one dispenses another person’s property legitimately unless he does so based on that person’s command. Now, the sacraments are Christ’s property. Only those, therefore, who have a mission from Christ — namely, those to whom the apostolic mission derives — dispense them legitimately.” (Billot, De Ecclesiae Sacramentis 1:179.)

1. I would like to read what Cardinal Billot taught about Canon 2261.

2. Also, the law did not envision a world with almost no legitimate "sent" bishops and priests. It can also be further said that the remaining legitimate members of the hierarchy are not easily identifiable and even if one was not identify any of them, they are likely not easily accessible. Regarding priests, there are very few Roman rite priests with a mission left on earth that have completely severed themselves from the Conciliar church.

In this case, the law has become harmful, and the use of epikeia may be reasonably used. If you believe otherwise, then the proper course of debate is about whether epikeia can be used in this situation to justify priests with the power of orders, but no authority, to continue to bring the sacraments, and only unauthoritatively the teaching of the Church.

We did begin a discussion on this point but we never concluded that discussion.