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Author Topic: Can the "Sede" question be discussed academically?  (Read 61629 times)

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Can the "Sede" question be discussed academically?
« Reply #320 on: November 04, 2015, 03:20:38 PM »
Quote from: McFiggly
Quote from: Matto

Well since the Second Vatican Council teaches that the false religions are means of salvation, there is no longer any purpose in evangelization.


And I think this is one of the abuses/excesses that will be corrected. I don't think that the Second Vatican Council itself teaches that.


It sure does:

It follows that the separated Churches(23) and Communities as such, though we believe them to be deficient in some respects, have been by no means deprived of significance and importance in the mystery of salvation. For the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation which derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Church. - Unitatis Redintegratio

Can the "Sede" question be discussed academically?
« Reply #321 on: November 04, 2015, 03:28:40 PM »
I think it is a mistake to focus on "customs and traditions" here.  The real issue is Vatican II, not customs and traditions which can change.

I also think that this thread has been officially derailed because the topic is no longer sedevacantism, but McFiggly's unfortunate return to the new religion.


Can the "Sede" question be discussed academically?
« Reply #322 on: November 04, 2015, 03:53:18 PM »
Quote from: 2Vermont


McFiggly, if you think the traditional movement is not legitimate, why do you post here?  Even those of us who are sede or resistance (despite our differences) at least recognize its validity and legitimacy.  Your posting here is like if I post at Catholic Answers.  


I will stop posting here. You are right that I don't really have a place here. I just wanted to get it off my chest, really, because I'd been sede for a while and talked about it here more than any other place.

Quote
The popularity or even existence of earthly monarchies has zero to do with Christ the King.  You might want to learn both Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition before posting on a traditionalist Catholic board.

The Messiah was always a kingly fixture in the OT -- anticipated with great hope as a monarchical ruler.  The entire NT is the story of the realization of Christ's kingly power and his triumph over The World.  Christ's reign is absolute.  It was and it is.  That has nothing to do with later European history.  

Christ, today, is, not "was,"  King.  Christus vincit; Christus regnat; Christus imperat.  (Present tense.) His power was and is absolute because he was and is eternally God.  King of the Universe, not of a country, a region, a culture, or a time period.  There is nothing anachronistic about his kingship, which is in fact part of revelation.  

While yes, different customs of respect belong to different eras in history, all cultures have differentiated their leaders with some clear indication of respect accorded to those with power or rank.  Francis, OTOH, loathes all gestures of respect.  If Christ Himself had felt that way He would have ordered the people waving palm branches at Him and shouting "Hosanna" to stop doing that, but he didn't, did he?

I have never heard of an ordained Catholic who seems to understand Jesus as poorly as Jorge Bergoglio does.  His understanding is not even Scriptural or even Second Vatican Council.  It's invented and patronizing.


Yes, I know that Christ the King is scriptural and traditional. My point there was that Christ the King as a type had a special significance in the Middle Ages that it does not have today. It's not that Christ is no longer King, it's that modern men for the most part don't understand what it means to have a king, so a pope presenting himself as a king would simply be foreign and baffling to them.

Can the "Sede" question be discussed academically?
« Reply #323 on: November 04, 2015, 03:59:18 PM »
Quote from: 2Vermont
Quote from: McFiggly
Quote from: Matto

Well since the Second Vatican Council teaches that the false religions are means of salvation, there is no longer any purpose in evangelization.


And I think this is one of the abuses/excesses that will be corrected. I don't think that the Second Vatican Council itself teaches that.


It sure does:

It follows that the separated Churches(23) and Communities as such, though we believe them to be deficient in some respects, have been by no means deprived of significance and importance in the mystery of salvation. For the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation which derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Church. - Unitatis Redintegratio


Go look up that quote in its proper context. It's not saying that the false religions are a means of salvation. It's saying that many of the schismatic churches have elements of the true religion (e.g. the sacrament of baptism), and that God can use these elements as means of salvation for people who were unfortunate to grow up separate from the true Church through no fault of their own. This is much, much more restricted than "using false religions as a means of salvation", which could be as broad so as to apply to Shamanism, Zoroastrianism, Wicca.

Quote
3. Even in the beginnings of this one and only Church of God there arose certain rifts,(19) which the Apostle strongly condemned.(20) But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions made their appearance and quite large communities came to be separated from full communion with the Catholic Church - for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame. The children who are born into these Communities and who grow up believing in Christ cannot be accused of the sin involved in the separation, and the Catholic Church embraces upon them as brothers, with respect and affection. For men who believe in Christ and have been truly baptized are in communion with the Catholic Church even though this communion is imperfect. The differences that exist in varying degrees between them and the Catholic Church - whether in doctrine and sometimes in discipline, or concerning the structure of the Church - do indeed create many obstacles, sometimes serious ones, to full ecclesiastical communion. The ecuмenical movement is striving to overcome these obstacles. But even in spite of them it remains true that all who have been justified by faith in Baptism are members of Christ's body,(21) and have a right to be called Christian, and so are correctly accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church.(22)

Moreover, some and even very many of the significant elements and endowments which together go to build up and give life to the Church itself, can exist outside the visible boundaries of the Catholic Church: the written word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, and visible elements too. All of these, which come from Christ and lead back to Christ, belong by right to the one Church of Christ.

The brethren divided from us also use many liturgical actions of the Christian religion. These most certainly can truly engender a life of grace in ways that vary according to the condition of each Church or Community. These liturgical actions must be regarded as capable of giving access to the community of salvation.

It follows that the separated Churches(23) and Communities as such, though we believe them to be deficient in some respects, have been by no means deprived of significance and importance in the mystery of salvation. For the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation which derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Church.

Nevertheless, our separated brethren, whether considered as individuals or as Communities and Churches, are not blessed with that unity which Jesus Christ wished to bestow on all those who through Him were born again into one body, and with Him quickened to newness of life - that unity which the Holy Scriptures and the ancient Tradition of the Church proclaim. For it is only through Christ's Catholic Church, which is "the all-embracing means of salvation," that they can benefit fully from the means of salvation. We believe that Our Lord entrusted all the blessings of the New Covenant to the apostolic college alone, of which Peter is the head, in order to establish the one Body of Christ on earth to which all should be fully incorporated who belong in any way to the people of God. This people of God, though still in its members liable to sin, is ever growing in Christ during its pilgrimage on earth, and is guided by God's gentle wisdom, according to His hidden designs, until it shall happily arrive at the fullness of eternal glory in the heavenly Jerusalem.


Also, it's worthy here to bring up a point I touched upon earlier. Don't be scandalised by this ecuмenical out-reach to Orthodox and Protestants just because the Counter-Reformation Church was very strict against the Protestants. That was a different time that required a different strategy. That was a time when Christendom was falling apart and there was a crisis of obedience. The average Protestant today who grows up in a sect started by a proud Reformation heresiarch knows next to nothing about what really happened, and so he does not deserve the same whip that would have been given to him back in Reformation times.

Can the "Sede" question be discussed academically?
« Reply #324 on: November 04, 2015, 04:04:22 PM »
Quote from: McFiggly
Quote from: 2Vermont
Quote from: McFiggly
Quote from: Matto

Well since the Second Vatican Council teaches that the false religions are means of salvation, there is no longer any purpose in evangelization.


And I think this is one of the abuses/excesses that will be corrected. I don't think that the Second Vatican Council itself teaches that.


It sure does:

It follows that the separated Churches(23) and Communities as such, though we believe them to be deficient in some respects, have been by no means deprived of significance and importance in the mystery of salvation. For the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation which derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Church. - Unitatis Redintegratio


Go look up that quote in its proper context. It's not saying that the false religions are a means of salvation. It's saying that many of the schismatic churches have elements of the true religion (e.g. the sacrament of baptism), and that God can use these elements as means of salvation for people who were unfortunate to grow up separate from the true Church through no fault of their own. This is much, much more restricted than "using false religions as a means of salvation", which could be as broad so as to apply to Shamanism, Zoroastrianism, Wicca.


NEVER has the Church ever even suggested that God can use these elements as "means of salvation" no matter how you want to try to explain it away.  Any church that happens to have any of these so-called elements stole them from the Catholic Church.    

For it is only through Christ's Catholic Church, which is "the all-embracing means of salvation," that they can benefit fully from the means of salvation.

But they can benefit partially.  Heresy.