Author Topic: Can the "Sede" question be discussed academically? (Read 61748 times)

McFiggly · « **Reply #305 on:** November 04, 2015, 05:54:35 AM »

Quote from: Stubborn

Quote from: Matto
Quote from: McFiggly
I think after the defensive stance of the Council of Trent, the Second Vatican Council will turn out, in the end, to be a new aggressive strategy to re-evangelise the world.

Well since the Second Vatican Council teaches that the false religions are means of salvation, there is no longer any purpose in evangelization. I don't want to offend you, but this is the stupidest thing I have read on this forum in a long time. I am not used to meeting the gung ho kool aide drinkers at Cathinfo.

McFiggly has done the same thing that multitudes have done, he wrongly compares the new faith to antiquity and finds many similarities which justifies the new faith.

The reality is that one must compare the new faith to that which it replaced - the true faith. When one does that, they will find all the teachings, customs and traditions all but completely gone and replaced, which effectively demonstrates the new church rejects all the Church's teachings and those of past popes' and councils, theologians, Fathers and saints.

What customs and traditions? Baptism? Confirmation? Mass? Confession? Holy Water? Genuflecting? Prayers/devotions? Submission to the Roman pontiff in faith & morals? Feast days? Pilgrimages?

Stubborn · « **Reply #306 on:** November 04, 2015, 06:04:16 AM »

Quote from: McFiggly

To give an example of what is essential and what isn't: the way that the pope came to be understood as a monarch, a king, and treated with all the regal majesty and pomp of a medieval king, etc. Now, you might think this is beautiful and find Pope Francis' "humility" to be disgusting, but, again, I think this is an aesthetic reaction and not a truly religious one. The Catholic Church exists apart from the nations. She adopts the manners and mores of the cultures she is in when appropriate. It made sense for the pope to present himself as a king in a time when kings were highly loved, honoured, respected, but that is no longer the case. St. Peter was a fisherman, and did not present himself as a king. There is no where in the New Testament where a layman who meets St. Peter is required to bow before him, kiss his hand, and call him "His Holiness". We have to separate respect and love for St. Peter and respect and love for medieval culture, because the former is essential whereas the latter is not.

Here is a fine example of my last post.

The pope is the Vicar of Christ on earth and of this, there should be no doubts from anyone on earth till the end of time. We, his subjects, should revere him for what he is, the king of the Church. He should dress like a king, he should be carried through the streets by his subjects wearing the crown of Christ's personal representative on earth -

not embarrassing his subjects driving around waving to people in a pope mobile.

Your idea of "She adopts the manners and mores of the cultures she is in when appropriate" is the new church's idea of adopting, which rejects the last 2000 years of what the Church's idea of adopting was.

Stubborn · « **Reply #307 on:** November 04, 2015, 06:06:04 AM »

Quote from: McFiggly

Quote from: Stubborn
Quote from: Matto
Quote from: McFiggly
I think after the defensive stance of the Council of Trent, the Second Vatican Council will turn out, in the end, to be a new aggressive strategy to re-evangelise the world.

Well since the Second Vatican Council teaches that the false religions are means of salvation, there is no longer any purpose in evangelization. I don't want to offend you, but this is the stupidest thing I have read on this forum in a long time. I am not used to meeting the gung ho kool aide drinkers at Cathinfo.

McFiggly has done the same thing that multitudes have done, he wrongly compares the new faith to antiquity and finds many similarities which justifies the new faith.

The reality is that one must compare the new faith to that which it replaced - the true faith. When one does that, they will find all the teachings, customs and traditions all but completely gone and replaced, which effectively demonstrates the new church rejects all the Church's teachings and those of past popes' and councils, theologians, Fathers and saints.

What customs and traditions? Baptism? Confirmation? Mass? Confession? Holy Water? Genuflecting? Prayers/devotions? Submission to the Roman pontiff in faith & morals? Feast days? Pilgrimages?

Start with the custom of genuflecting before the tabernacle which is always in the middle of the altar.

McFiggly · « **Reply #308 on:** November 04, 2015, 06:31:23 AM »

Quote from: Stubborn

The pope is the Vicar of Christ on earth and of this, there should be no doubts from anyone on earth till the end of time. We, his subjects, should revere him for what he is, the king of the Church. He should dress like a king, he should be carried through the streets by his subjects wearing the crown of Christ's personal representative on earth - not embarrassing his subjects driving around waving to people in a pope mobile.

The analogy between a pope and a king is not exact. A pope is more a papa, a father. Fathers certainly demand respect, but we also expect some affection from them that we don't expect necessarily from a king. The Majestic King is not the only way that the Vicar of Christ can present himself, because Christ is not just Christ the King, but Christ the Shepherd and Christ the Lamb. He is all things to all people at all times, and we can expect the same from the pope.

You might be a medievalist and have a love for regal splendour, but you have to be a realist and admit that this has fallen out of favour in the world. The fact is that a pope parading himself as a monarch would seem ridiculous and anachronistic to most people today. So, unless it's an absolutely necessary part of the constitution of the Church, there is no reason for the pope to adopt this manner of presentation.

Quote

Start with the custom of genuflecting before the tabernacle which is always in the middle of the altar.

I like this tradition too, but is it a dogma of the faith necessary for salvation?

Stubborn · « **Reply #309 on:** November 04, 2015, 06:44:27 AM »

Quote from: McFiggly

Quote from: Stubborn

The pope is the Vicar of Christ on earth and of this, there should be no doubts from anyone on earth till the end of time. We, his subjects, should revere him for what he is, the king of the Church. He should dress like a king, he should be carried through the streets by his subjects wearing the crown of Christ's personal representative on earth - not embarrassing his subjects driving around waving to people in a pope mobile.

The analogy between a pope and a king is not exact. A pope is more a papa, a father. Fathers certainly demand respect, but we also expect some affection from them that we don't expect necessarily from a king. The Majestic King is not the only way that the Vicar of Christ can present himself, because Christ is not just Christ the King, but Christ the Shepherd and Christ the Lamb. He is all things to all people at all times, and we can expect the same from the pope.

Exact or not, the pope is the supreme authority, the Vicar of Christ on earth and most of the world does not know or care, due in large part to the new faith, which stopped teaching it in order to adopt to the customs and mores of the day.

Quote from: McFiggly

Quote
Start with the custom of genuflecting before the tabernacle which is always in the middle of the altar.

I like this tradition too, but is it a dogma of the faith necessary for salvation?

No, but it is an outward sign of respect and reverence in acknowledging God, whom we genuflect too, is in the tabernacle, in the most conspicuous place of prominence in the center of the altar.

The jist of it is - if you are going to compare the new faith to anything, you must compare the new faith to that which it replaced.

If you do this, you will be forced to accept the fact that the new faith is not Catholic - and it is this new faith that you are on board with.